Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to write what they think and not piss everybody off? Jules , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > How is Jules frustrating? > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people what I > think as you know. > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, didn't say > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about animal > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour of them, > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what he wanted! > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be off sick to > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but I still > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very hard for > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in life. I > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism has > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > Lesley > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no-one > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and think > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of me) > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find the > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said your > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just have a go at > them if you don't like what they say. > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I decided > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid ones. You > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll only > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is repressing > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to my mam the > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though what you > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' bad, > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and university > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like it, but > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you to further > your own interests. > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for someone without > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. Probably more > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, do you > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized learning, > but for having your own interests and working within them. You are > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is what you > want. > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be the > cause of a lot of it. > > Michael > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I am anything but calm and non-frustrated Jules, you really don't know anything about me if you see me that way! You are so far off the mark, I was amazed you wrote that, not upset of course, just surprised, but then you haven't been here long enough to know about my life and thwarted ambitions (other than the failed nurse training in the 1980s). I do piss everybody off, I just pissed Michael off, and just ask Edith and Jane, they hate me because of some of my views, it's not just you Jules who annoys people by being honest! I'm very frustrated and feeling trapped as a stay-at-home mum these days, although I love the kids, I have my own needs and I would love to be studying or working part-time but there is just no way of getting the childcare to get any sort of life for myself outside of the family! Can't even find a babysitter to have a few hours out at the cinema to see Lord of the Rings with hubby for his birthday, before it completely ends its run, so I am actually mega-frustrated and fed up right now. He will probably have to go on his own I get somewhat of a bit of peace maybe an hour or two some days when the baby sleeps as the older two children are in school, but we often go months with no time out for Paul and me together without the kids. We do get a little time out when the grandparents babysit but that is a rare luxury, when we are staying in Cheshire with them, or when they visit which is not often, maybe twice or three times a year, and not always when there is something we especially have our hearts set on. I couldn't get regular childcare to enrol in a college course or anything like that, and it annoys me as I know I am bright enough to do something that would be of use to the causes I believe in, but I have to wait a few more years until my daughter is in school before I can do it, by which time I will be over 40 and seen to be on the scrap heap. I mean who takes middle-aged women trying to start a new career after bringing up kids seriously? Lesley djules_75 [djules_75] 24 April 2002 13:15 Re: frustration and jobsOT I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to write what they think and not piss everybody off? Jules , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > How is Jules frustrating? > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people what I > think as you know. > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, didn't say > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about animal > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour of them, > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what he wanted! > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be off sick to > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but I still > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very hard for > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in life. I > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism has > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > Lesley > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no-one > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and think > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of me) > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find the > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said your > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just have a go at > them if you don't like what they say. > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I decided > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid ones. You > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll only > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is repressing > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to my mam the > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though what you > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' bad, > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and university > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like it, but > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you to further > your own interests. > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for someone without > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. Probably more > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, do you > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized learning, > but for having your own interests and working within them. You are > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is what you > want. > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be the > cause of a lot of it. > > Michael > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Doesn't your hubby take over some of the burden of raising the kids? , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > I am anything but calm and non-frustrated Jules, you really don't know > anything about me if you see me that way! You are so far off the mark, I was > amazed you wrote that, not upset of course, just surprised, but then you > haven't been here long enough to know about my life and thwarted ambitions > (other than the failed nurse training in the 1980s). > I do piss everybody off, I just pissed Michael off, and just ask Edith and > Jane, they hate me because of some of my views, it's not just you Jules who > annoys people by being honest! > I'm very frustrated and feeling trapped as a stay-at-home mum these days, > although I love the kids, I have my own needs and I would love to be > studying or working part-time but there is just no way of getting the > childcare to get any sort of life for myself outside of the family! Can't > even find a babysitter to have a few hours out at the cinema to see Lord of > the Rings with hubby for his birthday, before it completely ends its run, so > I am actually mega-frustrated and fed up right now. He will probably have to > go on his own > I get somewhat of a bit of peace maybe an hour or two some days when the > baby sleeps as the older two children are in school, but we often go months > with no time out for Paul and me together without the kids. We do get a > little time out when the grandparents babysit but that is a rare luxury, > when we are staying in Cheshire with them, or when they visit which is not > often, maybe twice or three times a year, and not always when there is > something we especially have our hearts set on. I couldn't get regular > childcare to enrol in a college course or anything like that, and it annoys > me as I know I am bright enough to do something that would be of use to the > causes I believe in, but I have to wait a few more years until my daughter > is in school before I can do it, by which time I will be over 40 and seen to > be on the scrap heap. I mean who takes middle-aged women trying to start a > new career after bringing up kids seriously? > > Lesley > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 24 April 2002 13:15 > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, > but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only > people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to > write what they think and not piss everybody off? > > Jules > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > How is Jules frustrating? > > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people > what I > > think as you know. > > > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, > didn't say > > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about > animal > > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour > of them, > > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what > he wanted! > > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be off > sick to > > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but I > still > > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very hard > for > > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in > life. I > > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism > has > > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no- one > > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and think > > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of me) > > > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find > the > > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said > your > > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just have > a go at > > them if you don't like what they say. > > > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I > decided > > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid > ones. You > > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll > only > > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is repressing > > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to my > mam the > > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though > what you > > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' > bad, > > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and > university > > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like > it, but > > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you to > further > > your own interests. > > > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for someone > without > > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. > Probably more > > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, do > you > > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized > learning, > > but for having your own interests and working within them. You are > > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is > what you > > want. > > > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be > the > > cause of a lot of it. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > > --------------------------- > > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. Lesley djules_75 [djules_75] 24 April 2002 16:19 Re: frustration and jobsOT Doesn't your hubby take over some of the burden of raising the kids? , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > I am anything but calm and non-frustrated Jules, you really don't know > anything about me if you see me that way! You are so far off the mark, I was > amazed you wrote that, not upset of course, just surprised, but then you > haven't been here long enough to know about my life and thwarted ambitions > (other than the failed nurse training in the 1980s). > I do piss everybody off, I just pissed Michael off, and just ask Edith and > Jane, they hate me because of some of my views, it's not just you Jules who > annoys people by being honest! > I'm very frustrated and feeling trapped as a stay-at-home mum these days, > although I love the kids, I have my own needs and I would love to be > studying or working part-time but there is just no way of getting the > childcare to get any sort of life for myself outside of the family! Can't > even find a babysitter to have a few hours out at the cinema to see Lord of > the Rings with hubby for his birthday, before it completely ends its run, so > I am actually mega-frustrated and fed up right now. He will probably have to > go on his own > I get somewhat of a bit of peace maybe an hour or two some days when the > baby sleeps as the older two children are in school, but we often go months > with no time out for Paul and me together without the kids. We do get a > little time out when the grandparents babysit but that is a rare luxury, > when we are staying in Cheshire with them, or when they visit which is not > often, maybe twice or three times a year, and not always when there is > something we especially have our hearts set on. I couldn't get regular > childcare to enrol in a college course or anything like that, and it annoys > me as I know I am bright enough to do something that would be of use to the > causes I believe in, but I have to wait a few more years until my daughter > is in school before I can do it, by which time I will be over 40 and seen to > be on the scrap heap. I mean who takes middle-aged women trying to start a > new career after bringing up kids seriously? > > Lesley > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 24 April 2002 13:15 > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, > but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only > people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to > write what they think and not piss everybody off? > > Jules > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > How is Jules frustrating? > > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people > what I > > think as you know. > > > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, > didn't say > > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about > animal > > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour > of them, > > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what > he wanted! > > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be off > sick to > > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but I > still > > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very hard > for > > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in > life. I > > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism > has > > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no- one > > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and think > > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of me) > > > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find > the > > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said > your > > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just have > a go at > > them if you don't like what they say. > > > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I > decided > > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid > ones. You > > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll > only > > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is repressing > > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to my > mam the > > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though > what you > > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' > bad, > > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and > university > > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like > it, but > > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you to > further > > your own interests. > > > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for someone > without > > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. > Probably more > > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, do > you > > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized > learning, > > but for having your own interests and working within them. You are > > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is > what you > > want. > > > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be > the > > cause of a lot of it. > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > > --------------------------- > > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 On Wed Apr 24, 2002, Lesley Dove wrote: > Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does > help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand > (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality > time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is > working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. Have you thought of doing a course with the Open University, Lesley? That's what mum did when we were kids. You can work at home, and the system is fairly flexible as to how much time it takes up. Joel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I would like to possibly consider it when we have sorted out the flat and moved, there is lots to do, so I'm not ready to take on anything at present, but not that it should take 4 or 5 years, so I would start to do something in a year or two, before my youngest daughter is in full-time school, if she allows me to! I'm a bit worried about the prospect of doing OU though, I've never done anything like that before and I do feel I would cope better in a proper class, more supported that way, I also need to not feel isolated, and that is a big priority for me. Some days the only interaction with other adults I have other than hubby is with this group! I don't know any veggie mums at the kids' school, don't really feel comfortable with them as I feel inadequate and guilty as a mother because of feeling dissatisfied, I expect them to think that a good mother would love her life and not feel dissatisfied, so they would look down on me for wanting something else in my life, and they are all animal eaters anyway. We knew loads of vegans through AR groups and London Vegans prior to having kids, they turned out to be fair-weather friends who were not prepared to make any effort to keep the friendships going once we had kids. True friends would offer to babysit sometimes or at least make it easy for us to meet up for something family-friendly. True friends would not have allowed the situation to get so bad as for me to be lonely and depressed for years on end. Lesley Joel Cartwright [joel] 24 April 2002 17:58 Re: Re: frustration and jobsOT On Wed Apr 24, 2002, Lesley Dove wrote: > Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does > help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand > (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality > time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is > working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. Have you thought of doing a course with the Open University, Lesley? That's what mum did when we were kids. You can work at home, and the system is fairly flexible as to how much time it takes up. Joel. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Even the two other vegan mums in my area are not very helpful. I have asked them to join us to form a babysitting circle so we can all help one another to get some of our own time and yet none of them are willing to do exchange babysitting, even though they have no-one to babysit either and never get out for evenings out with their partners. I don't understand why they don't see this as a problem, that they don't have any time out as a couple without the kids. It makes me feel odd for wanting what I thought was a fairly normal need for couples. We could help one another just get some free time or to undertake a weekly class each, whatever we want, we would all gain some freedom from exchange babysitting, and I can't understand them not jumping at the chance of that. Being a parent should not mean giving up everything. Lesley Joel Cartwright [joel] 24 April 2002 17:58 Re: Re: frustration and jobsOT On Wed Apr 24, 2002, Lesley Dove wrote: > Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does > help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand > (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality > time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is > working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. Have you thought of doing a course with the Open University, Lesley? That's what mum did when we were kids. You can work at home, and the system is fairly flexible as to how much time it takes up. Joel. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 On Wed Apr 24, 2002, Lesley Dove wrote: > > I'm a bit worried about the prospect of doing OU though, I've never done > anything like that before and I do feel I would cope better in a proper > class, more supported that way, I also need to not feel isolated, and that > is a big priority for me. > Some days the only interaction with other adults I have other than hubby is > with this group! I don't know any veggie mums at the kids' school, don't > really feel comfortable with them as I feel inadequate and guilty as a > mother because of feeling dissatisfied, I expect them to think that a good > mother would love her life and not feel dissatisfied, so they would look > down on me for wanting something else in my life, and they are all animal > eaters anyway. We knew loads of vegans through AR groups and London Vegans > prior to having kids, they turned out to be fair-weather friends who were > not prepared to make any effort to keep the friendships going once we had > kids. True friends would offer to babysit sometimes or at least make it easy > for us to meet up for something family-friendly. True friends would not have > allowed the situation to get so bad as for me to be lonely and depressed for > years on end. It does sound pretty lonely for you at home :/ I suspect a lot of the other mums may be feeling the same as you, though. You may feel more isolated being a vegan mum, but things don't have to be that way. Some people may see you as an extremist for being vegan, but as long as you don't act in such a way as to confirm their prejudices, there's no reason why you shouldn't get on. I think sometimes you just have to keep certain things to yourself, with regards veganism, in case you push people away. It's unfortunate this is the case, but I don't think we do ourselves any favours by constantly coming across as being on the moral high ground. Maybe you're trying too hard to only mix with vegans, and in doing so denying yourself some rewarding friendships with non-vegans? Have you tried talking to the other (non-vegan) mums in the area about starting a babysitting group? Some of them are bound to be feeling the need for some time to themselves, and would probably welcome the idea. When we were kids, my mum got together with other mums in the area, and started a local playgroup. They took turns looking after the children, and it gave the off duty mums a bit of time to themselves during the day. They also used to have regular gatherings at their homes (all of the kids came), so they got social contact with each other that way as well. Us kids enjoyed it too I hope this doesn't come across as patronising, just trying to help with what little knowledge I have Joel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 That is harsh, if I could i would help, (I think supporting each other is important) but i don't live anywhere near you and I smoke. Don't think its too late to do a course, nowadays people of all ages do courses, although the people at my college are predominantly in their teens and twenties, there are quite a lot of middle aged people as well, there's even a 77-year old doing a geography a-level. Jules , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does > help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand > (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality > time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is > working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. > > Lesley > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 24 April 2002 16:19 > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > Doesn't your hubby take over some of the burden of raising the kids? > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > I am anything but calm and non-frustrated Jules, you really don't > know > > anything about me if you see me that way! You are so far off the > mark, I was > > amazed you wrote that, not upset of course, just surprised, but > then you > > haven't been here long enough to know about my life and thwarted > ambitions > > (other than the failed nurse training in the 1980s). > > I do piss everybody off, I just pissed Michael off, and just ask > Edith and > > Jane, they hate me because of some of my views, it's not just you > Jules who > > annoys people by being honest! > > I'm very frustrated and feeling trapped as a stay-at-home mum these > days, > > although I love the kids, I have my own needs and I would love to be > > studying or working part-time but there is just no way of getting > the > > childcare to get any sort of life for myself outside of the family! > Can't > > even find a babysitter to have a few hours out at the cinema to see > Lord of > > the Rings with hubby for his birthday, before it completely ends > its run, so > > I am actually mega-frustrated and fed up right now. He will > probably have to > > go on his own > > I get somewhat of a bit of peace maybe an hour or two some days > when the > > baby sleeps as the older two children are in school, but we often > go months > > with no time out for Paul and me together without the kids. We do > get a > > little time out when the grandparents babysit but that is a rare > luxury, > > when we are staying in Cheshire with them, or when they visit which > is not > > often, maybe twice or three times a year, and not always when there > is > > something we especially have our hearts set on. I couldn't get > regular > > childcare to enrol in a college course or anything like that, and > it annoys > > me as I know I am bright enough to do something that would be of > use to the > > causes I believe in, but I have to wait a few more years until my > daughter > > is in school before I can do it, by which time I will be over 40 > and seen to > > be on the scrap heap. I mean who takes middle-aged women trying to > start a > > new career after bringing up kids seriously? > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > > 24 April 2002 13:15 > > > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > > > > I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, > > but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only > > people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to > > write what they think and not piss everybody off? > > > > Jules > > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > > > How is Jules frustrating? > > > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people > > what I > > > think as you know. > > > > > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, > > didn't say > > > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about > > animal > > > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour > > of them, > > > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what > > he wanted! > > > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be > off > > sick to > > > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but > I > > still > > > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very > hard > > for > > > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in > > life. I > > > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism > > has > > > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > > > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > > > > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no- > one > > > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and > think > > > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of > me) > > > > > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > > > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find > > the > > > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said > > your > > > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just > have > > a go at > > > them if you don't like what they say. > > > > > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I > > decided > > > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid > > ones. You > > > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll > > only > > > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is > repressing > > > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to > my > > mam the > > > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though > > what you > > > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' > > bad, > > > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and > > university > > > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like > > it, but > > > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you > to > > further > > > your own interests. > > > > > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for > someone > > without > > > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. > > Probably more > > > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, > do > > you > > > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized > > learning, > > > but for having your own interests and working within them. You > are > > > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is > > what you > > > want. > > > > > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be > > the > > > cause of a lot of it. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > > > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > > > --------------------------- > > > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > > > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 Do many colleges have creches though? I don't personally mind mixing with people who smoke so long as they don't actually do it around us. That would only be a problem for someone who chain-smoked. Lesley djules_75 [djules_75] 25 April 2002 12:30 Re: frustration and jobsOT That is harsh, if I could i would help, (I think supporting each other is important) but i don't live anywhere near you and I smoke. Don't think its too late to do a course, nowadays people of all ages do courses, although the people at my college are predominantly in their teens and twenties, there are quite a lot of middle aged people as well, there's even a 77-year old doing a geography a-level. Jules , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Yes, he is great that way, but the thing I hate is that no-one else does > help, none of our old friends from before we had kids have ever lent a hand > (we had them in mind as aunties and uncles) and so we hardly get any quality > time for the two of us, and I can't get to do anything on my own when he is > working, so I can't get on a course or try for a job. > > Lesley > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 24 April 2002 16:19 > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > Doesn't your hubby take over some of the burden of raising the kids? > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > I am anything but calm and non-frustrated Jules, you really don't > know > > anything about me if you see me that way! You are so far off the > mark, I was > > amazed you wrote that, not upset of course, just surprised, but > then you > > haven't been here long enough to know about my life and thwarted > ambitions > > (other than the failed nurse training in the 1980s). > > I do piss everybody off, I just pissed Michael off, and just ask > Edith and > > Jane, they hate me because of some of my views, it's not just you > Jules who > > annoys people by being honest! > > I'm very frustrated and feeling trapped as a stay-at-home mum these > days, > > although I love the kids, I have my own needs and I would love to be > > studying or working part-time but there is just no way of getting > the > > childcare to get any sort of life for myself outside of the family! > Can't > > even find a babysitter to have a few hours out at the cinema to see > Lord of > > the Rings with hubby for his birthday, before it completely ends > its run, so > > I am actually mega-frustrated and fed up right now. He will > probably have to > > go on his own > > I get somewhat of a bit of peace maybe an hour or two some days > when the > > baby sleeps as the older two children are in school, but we often > go months > > with no time out for Paul and me together without the kids. We do > get a > > little time out when the grandparents babysit but that is a rare > luxury, > > when we are staying in Cheshire with them, or when they visit which > is not > > often, maybe twice or three times a year, and not always when there > is > > something we especially have our hearts set on. I couldn't get > regular > > childcare to enrol in a college course or anything like that, and > it annoys > > me as I know I am bright enough to do something that would be of > use to the > > causes I believe in, but I have to wait a few more years until my > daughter > > is in school before I can do it, by which time I will be over 40 > and seen to > > be on the scrap heap. I mean who takes middle-aged women trying to > start a > > new career after bringing up kids seriously? > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > > 24 April 2002 13:15 > > > > Re: frustration and jobsOT > > > > > > I think I'm frustrating because I tell people what i think, as well, > > but I am also a very frustrated person at the mo. Is it that only > > people like Lesley who are calm and not frustrated can afford to > > write what they think and not piss everybody off? > > > > Jules > > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > > > How is Jules frustrating? > > > I don't find him especially so, and I'm not afraid to tell people > > what I > > > think as you know. > > > > > > I played along in nurse training, kept my head down quite a bit, > > didn't say > > > anything much to the tutor who was going on all the time about > > animal > > > experiments showing this and that, he was obviously very in favour > > of them, > > > but I didn't take the bait or cause a row as I knew that was what > > he wanted! > > > I just did the best I could, worked hard, never pretended to be > off > > sick to > > > go on AR protests, however tempting it was, I behaved myself, but > I > > still > > > got forced out for my beliefs in the end. Sometimes it is very > hard > > for > > > vegans in certain professions or courses of study to get on in > > life. I > > > understand this even if you cannot understand since your veganism > > has > > > probably not affected you in your job/career/study. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > > > > Mavreela [nec.lists@m...] > > > 24 April 2002 01:05 > > > > > > Re: Re: my physics teacher OT > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yeah thats the real lesson I need to learn, you're spot on. (no- > one > > > >tells me what you have, they probably just keep it inside and > think > > > >bad thoughts of me, I'm not very aware of what others think of > me) > > > > > > Both Graham and Oliver tell you what they think. In all honesty I > > > personally pay little attention as I have nothing to say and find > > the > > > constant back and forwarding of it all rather boring. That said > > your > > > attitude towards Graham probably makes people feel you'll just > have > > a go at > > > them if you don't like what they say. > > > > > > I did write a reply to your email, but have worked through yours I > > decided > > > to delete it. You make some valid arguments, and some stupid > > ones. You > > > argue about things you know nothing about. I got fed up. You'll > > only > > > reply back once again making it seem that the 'system' is > repressing > > > you. Only this evening my parents called and I was bemoaning to > my > > mam the > > > complete inadequacies in the education system. In the end though > > what you > > > take out of it is what you put in, and how you use it. Schools' > > bad, > > > granted, you just have to make do, but after that college and > > university > > > are different. You have to play along, though you might not like > > it, but > > > you can also take advantage of all the opportunity it offers you > to > > further > > > your own interests. > > > > > > Didn't Einstein have no qualifications? It may be rare for > someone > > without > > > the background in an area to get anywhere, but it happens. > > Probably more > > > frequently than you realize. You spoke of people needing a PhD, > do > > you > > > know what one of those is? You don't get one for standardized > > learning, > > > but for having your own interests and working within them. You > are > > > criticizing something while at the same time arguing that it is > > what you > > > want. > > > > > > You may be frustrated, but you are so frustrating that you must be > > the > > > cause of a lot of it. > > > > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > > > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > > > --------------------------- > > > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > > > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > Do many colleges have creches though? I don't think so but I'm sure there are some Jules > I don't personally mind mixing with people who smoke so long as they don't > actually do it around us. That would only be a problem for someone who > chain-smoked. > > Lesley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 26, 2002 Report Share Posted April 26, 2002 My eldest (the only boy) has some special needs and has an extra helper at school, so that is another reason I feel that the other mums probably look down on me, although I admit I look down on the ones who smoke (with good reason as they know they are hurting their kids and still won't stop). I do try to find vegetarians as well as vegans, but no way do I feel comfortable with animal-eaters as friends. I just can't see why, if the vegan mums are so uninterested in helping one another, why the others would be better anyway. Let's face it, I am unsuited in my personality and temperament to being a full-time mum, I have known this for years now that I am like a square peg in a round hole, and it could be because of me not being very good at being a full-time mum, often dissatisfied, that my son has some problems (autistic spectrum). My own mum didn't have it as hard as I do, because I was her only child, and her mother lived near to and helped so she got to do her own thing too. But I never got to mix until I went to school, she never sent me to a nursery and never got together with other mums as far as I remember. I have been a few times to a local mums and toddlers group and might stick with it, thanks for the advice. Lesley Joel Cartwright [joel] 25 April 2002 03:10 Re: Re: frustration and jobsOT On Wed Apr 24, 2002, Lesley Dove wrote: > > I'm a bit worried about the prospect of doing OU though, I've never done > anything like that before and I do feel I would cope better in a proper > class, more supported that way, I also need to not feel isolated, and that > is a big priority for me. > Some days the only interaction with other adults I have other than hubby is > with this group! I don't know any veggie mums at the kids' school, don't > really feel comfortable with them as I feel inadequate and guilty as a > mother because of feeling dissatisfied, I expect them to think that a good > mother would love her life and not feel dissatisfied, so they would look > down on me for wanting something else in my life, and they are all animal > eaters anyway. We knew loads of vegans through AR groups and London Vegans > prior to having kids, they turned out to be fair-weather friends who were > not prepared to make any effort to keep the friendships going once we had > kids. True friends would offer to babysit sometimes or at least make it easy > for us to meet up for something family-friendly. True friends would not have > allowed the situation to get so bad as for me to be lonely and depressed for > years on end. It does sound pretty lonely for you at home :/ I suspect a lot of the other mums may be feeling the same as you, though. You may feel more isolated being a vegan mum, but things don't have to be that way. Some people may see you as an extremist for being vegan, but as long as you don't act in such a way as to confirm their prejudices, there's no reason why you shouldn't get on. I think sometimes you just have to keep certain things to yourself, with regards veganism, in case you push people away. It's unfortunate this is the case, but I don't think we do ourselves any favours by constantly coming across as being on the moral high ground. Maybe you're trying too hard to only mix with vegans, and in doing so denying yourself some rewarding friendships with non-vegans? Have you tried talking to the other (non-vegan) mums in the area about starting a babysitting group? Some of them are bound to be feeling the need for some time to themselves, and would probably welcome the idea. When we were kids, my mum got together with other mums in the area, and started a local playgroup. They took turns looking after the children, and it gave the off duty mums a bit of time to themselves during the day. They also used to have regular gatherings at their homes (all of the kids came), so they got social contact with each other that way as well. Us kids enjoyed it too I hope this doesn't come across as patronising, just trying to help with what little knowledge I have Joel. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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