Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 i thought art ... being creative... rather creativity is the initiative born out of discontent... and tho there is a lot of discontent behind mental illness it is not restricted to the mentally ill... there is a lot of discontent in conflict... so dealing better with the mentally ill ... are you saying that would crush creativity? i don't think you're thinking creatively here... > > Mavreela [nec.lists] > > be a case of people being different? If we managed to cure > all mental > illness then the world will be deprived of a lot of art, > that's for sure. > > Michael > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 >so dealing better with the mentally ill ... are you saying that would crush >creativity? Tsk, tsk. Tell me where I said all art is the result of mental illness? I said " a lot of art " comes out of mental illness. You can decide whether the " lot " is a percentage of all art, or of mentally ill artists as you choose. My message remains the same, that 'abnormality' has both positive and negative aspects, and was never meant as a statistical analysis. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 > Tsk, tsk. Tell me where I said all art is the result of > mental illness? I > said " a lot of art " comes out of mental illness. you didn't you seemed to be arguing that we shouldn't solve the mentally ill problem for the sake of some art... > You can decide whether the " lot " is a percentage of all art, > or of mentally > ill artists as you choose. My message remains the same, that > 'abnormality' > has both positive and negative aspects, and was never meant as a > statistical analysis. > > Michael you weren't talking about abnormality ... you were talking about the mentally ill... really!... surely our concern is to help people out of their problems... not to save their art... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 >you didn't you seemed to be arguing that we shouldn't solve the mentally ill >problem for the sake of some art... No, I was offering an example of why mental illness is not something that should necessarily be cured, why it's existence enriches the world rather than is simply something gone wrong, why some people would rather be that way than not. >you weren't talking about abnormality ... you were talking about the >mentally ill... In psychology the issue of mental illness is called 'abnormal psychology'. What makes someone with a different neurology, or who has a different attitude to the majority, be deemed ill is that they are considered abnormal. Homosexuality until very recently (the 70's or 80's) was classed as a psychological abnormality, and hence a mental illness. It is now just a difference, such as skin colour. >really!... surely our concern is to help people out of their problems... So you think it a problem? You think they want your help? You consider them ill for being different? You want to recondition them to meet your criteria of a normal human? >not to save their art... Depends if that's what's important to them. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 > No, I was offering an example of why mental illness is not > something that > should necessarily be cured, why it's existence enriches the > world rather > than is simply something gone wrong, why some people would > rather be that > way than not. like it's their choice! ... so some person who can't deal with reality shouldn't necessarily be cured of that ... because his existence enriches the world... i retract my call for you to be king... > >you weren't talking about abnormality ... you were talking about the > >mentally ill... > > In psychology the issue of mental illness is called 'abnormal > psychology'. What makes someone with a different neurology, > or who has a > different attitude to the majority, be deemed ill is that they are > considered abnormal. Homosexuality until very recently (the i have a different attitude to the majority ... i might not be normal... but i'm not abnormal... > >really!... surely our concern is to help people out of their > problems... > > So you think it a problem? You think they want your help? > You consider > them ill for being different? You want to recondition them > to meet your > criteria of a normal human? i don't think it a problem... i don't consider anyone ill for being different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 >like it's their choice! ... It is their choice whether they should become something they are not. Nobody choose to be the way they are, but they do have the choice whether to be treated, take drugs, have ECT to become something else. >so some person who can't deal with reality... Big claim, do you wish to enlighten us on what reality is? >...shouldn't necessarily be cured of that So to you mental illnesses are an incapability to deal with reality? How do you know they are the ones truly in touch with reality and you are the one perceiving it wrongly? Some feel that the affects depression come as a result of being more in touch with the suffering in the world than those who can happily dismiss it. It may or may not be right, I'm not really in agreement with that idea myself, but at least I don't have the closed mind self righteous attitude that you seemingly do. > ... because his existence enriches the world... If you're going to pick at bits, at least get them right. That the existence of mental illnesses enriches the world is only a reason why they may be the natural order of things, not a reason for forcing people to be a certain way should they not want to. >i retract my call for you to be king... Apparently so, because in you view I should be taken away to the re education centre to be forced to deal with reality the way you would like. >i have a different attitude to the majority ... i might not be normal... but >i'm not abnormal... Well lucky you. Now if you think about what you said long enough you might just understand what I'm saying. Still I can get a doctors note to the contrary, yay for me. >i don't think it a problem... i don't consider anyone ill for being >different... So why the obsession with curing them, sorry putting them back in touch with reality. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 i meant it would be beneficial to everyone if we helped them deal with THEIR reality in a more constructive way... i don't care whether that means that they come out thinking differently to everyone else or not... fuck my views... i am nothing... > It is their choice whether they should become something they are > not. Nobody choose to be the way they are, but they do have the choice > whether to be treated, take drugs, have ECT to become something else. right... they have the choice to leave... and then they're back a year later... do you think that is the only way ? (do i have to add that i don't have a better way? or are you going to jump to your own conclusion based on you're preconception that i think i have better ideas...?) > >so some person who can't deal with reality... > > Big claim, do you wish to enlighten us on what reality is? peach > So to you mental illnesses are an incapability to deal with > reality? How do you know they are the ones truly in touch with > reality and you are the one perceiving it wrongly? Some feel that > the affects depression come as a result of being more in touch > with the suffering in the world than those who can happily dismiss > it. It may or may not be right, I'm not really in agreement with > that idea myself, but at least I don't have the closed mind > self righteous attitude that you seemingly do. hmm... you jumped to the conclusion i was talking about some greater reality... my fault for not having written that bit clearer... blarb > > ... because his existence enriches the world... > > If you're going to pick at bits, at least get them right. and you answer by breaking up my sentences and commenting on each bit...? > Well lucky you. Now if you think about what you said long enough you might > just understand what I'm saying. why should i think about it for 'long enough' till i understand...? > So why the obsession with curing them, sorry putting them back in touch > with reality. > > Michael that was utterly pointless.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 >i meant it would be beneficial to everyone if we helped them deal >with THEIR reality in a more constructive way... So what's that got to do with mental illnesses, that applies to everyone not the few who have been marked as abnormal. >right... they have the choice to leave... and then they're back a >year later... Leave where? (I could make assumptions, but then you'll be all uppity) >or are you going to jump to your own conclusion >based on you're preconception that i think i have better ideas...? So you reject that people do not need curing, but you have no idea why you think that? I certainly think that you believe in something that you're talking about. As for whether it's a 'better' (as in good) idea, you wouldn't bother arguing for it if you didn't give it some stock. >and you answer by breaking up my sentences and commenting on each >bit...? Obviously. Saves me typing. Do I get the bits wrong though? >why should i think about it for 'long enough' till i understand...? Because you clearly don't understand what I'm saying but you practically said what I had been saying there. If you think about it you'll see the similarity. Why are you not mentally ill (your words) for your different attitude, but other people are? My only point is that what constitutes being mentally ill is not something that is self evident (like a broken leg) but a socially/culturally/politically designed division and so the attitude they should be cured is not only wrong it is oppressive. >that was utterly pointless.... You're telling me? This may all mean nowt to you, but then you're not the one who gets threatened with being locked up and forced fed drugs against their will. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 , " zorgster " <oliver@l...> wrote: > i meant it would be beneficial to everyone if we helped them deal > with THEIR reality in a more constructive way... How do you do that? As soon as one person comes into contact with another person their realities merge. They become part of each other's realities for the duration of their time togethor. jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 " Thousands of psychiatric patients could claim damages after a court ruled the government breached the rights of those held against their will in hospitals. " some things can change... > This may all mean nowt to you, but then you're not the one who gets > threatened with being locked up and forced fed drugs against > their will. > > Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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