Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 I'm not asthmatic... i just find the Buteyko method useful for those times when i feel my nose getting blocked... i was telling you about this method... and you jumped back at me for smoking... i don't *happily* smoke... what on earth gave you that idea... Ashley's vision is a year old ... it seems you so little understand how difficult it can be for some smokers to quit... which is probably why you have so little compassion for those who can't... i don't agree with your idea that your mother wanted to pull you to her level of poor health... you don't think our parents *choose* to fuck us up do you? just as much as we don't *choose* to fuck our children up... what a poor mother you have ... you seem to have no sympathy for her shortcomings... as for the 'thanks for the advice but no thanks' ... it's not my advice... it's the Buteyko method... it's not mine... read it ... it's got fuck all to do with smokers... it's taught at a very good college here for alternative therapies... as a cure for asthma... if you were in a car accident and you were going to bleed to death ... would you refuse help from a doctor because he ate meat... ? the whole idea of refusing aid advice from people who don't fit your ideals is limiting... and therefore how can this lead to a fulfilling life? there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of ideas... and sometimes it's the ones who don't fit your perfect life that have the better ideas than the ones who do fit your perfect life... in that respect you shouldn't take any advice from an asthmatic... because he can't breath properly and thus is in no way qualified to give you advice on how to breath properly... you should get no advice from a doctor who has fallen ill... should not be taught how to drive by anyone who has been in an accident... and so on... and so on ... limit your life... go on ... stay in your rut... z > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47 PM > > RE: asthma [ot] > > > > Right, thanks but I am puzzled that you would prefer to go > through a whole > load of difficult exercises, rather than quit smoking. I'd > prefer to simply > avoid smoke which is the main thing that aggravates my > catarrh and breathing > trouble, and do that rigorously even to the point of finding out about > whether there is a mask I can wear that filters it out if I > happen to have > to be anywhere near someone smoking. How can you carry on > being a smoker if > you have breathing problems when you get a cold? Makes no sense. > I don't understand how you can happily continue to do something that > obviously clogs your lungs with tar and immobilises the cilia > which are part > of the lungs' natural cleaning system. I was shocked when Ash > said he had > seen you chain-smoking. > I wonder, what has Dr Buteyko got to say about smokers? I > couldn't find > anything on the site about it but I didn't look at the whole > site. I cannot > respect any doctor who deals with the chest and asthma but > does not make a > big point of condemning smoking. I think he is kind of > missing the point > about the crap that is the biggest irritant to the lungs and > throat. We need > to eradicate the problem of smoking completely, then we would > see a real > difference. I really do not think exercises would help when I > am irritated > by smoke. > My mum is asthmatic and a smoker, silly woman! > She would probably not have any problems at all if she just > quit, and if she > had quit when I was young or before I was even conceived I > would most likely > have had no breathing problems whatsoever. I've no sympathy > at all with > asthmatics who smoke, especially since my mother's smoking > caused me to be > so ill. She was unhealthy (asthmatic since one of her childhood > vaccinations) and obviously could not bear to have a healthy > daughter she > would be jealous of, so she must have decided it was > ethically OK to drag me > down to her level of poor health. It's like diabetics eating > sugar, obese > people continuing to overeat, etc, except that smoking is > even worse because > it has a more seriously damaging effect on others around them! > > Thanks for thinking of me but do you seriously think I would > feel confident > to take the advice of a SMOKER on any issues relating to breathing > problems?? > Would I listen to a person eating McDonalds burgers on > anything relating to > either ethical issues or health? NO! I could not respect > their authority. > I can respect you for being a vegan and having some ethics, > but when it > comes to this issue, you have no credibility in my eyes > because of what you > are doing to your own lungs, and worst of all harming those > around you. It's > not a question of it being only your body so it's up to you, > if Ash the > non-smoker or other people are around and forced to breathe > your smoke. > I would listen to advice from someone like Ian who also can't > bear to be > around smoke, however, also because his physiology is most > likely more like > mine than yours is. > > Since I developed worse breathing trouble during my third > pregnancy, my mum > is more respectful about avoiding smoking near me, and I have > told her it is > too late, and she should have listened to me when I was a > child begging her > to stop making me ill!! She knew what she was doing to me, I > told her for > years, and I cannot truly forgive what she did to me when she > forced me to > breathe her smoke and I was powerless to avoid it. She left > me with a weak > chest for life. > > Lesley > > > > Oliver Slay [oliver] > 26 April 2002 16:04 > ' ' > asthma [ot] > > > i use the method when i feel a cold coming on ... or when i > feel my nose > blocking... i haven't looked into how it works... it's > something to do with > the balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen that we have in our > system... and > how that affects the tissues in the nasal passage... the > Buteyko method > works to reduce the constriction in the airways... somewhere > there's a good > page for teaching children the method... > > > Have you ever looked into the Buteyko method for relieving asthma..? > > > > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > > > > z > > > > > > > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > > > > > > As for the asthmatic attacks, the ventolin does sometimes > > > help, nothing to > > > do with placebos. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you do happily smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. The people deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died because of others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and others. I'd take advice from someone with similar problems to me with smoke sensitivity and who had found something worked for them, I just suspect that we have quite different physiologies, different triggers for chest or nose mucus, etc, so different things would work. There are just such wide differences in human beings, and to me it seems clear that someone who can smoke and not become acutely ill immediately (and even likes it) has a very different physiology from mine, as I am severely allergic to cigarette smoke as well as hating the smell to the point that I always threw up in pregnancy when I was near anyone smoking. My husband is different from me, he is an ex-smoker, but he reacts more to dust and paint fumes than I do, he finds he has no nasty reaction to second-hand smoke himself although he always backs me up when it is inflicted on me or the kids by selfish smokers. What would help my husband with his catarrh which he gets too, might well be a different remedy than the one that would work for me. I'd consider homoeopathy as this takes into account different types of people, a homoeopath asks questions about different likes and dislikes and sensitivities, not treating us all the same as allopathic medicine (and possibly the Buteyko method) does. I do not want something that treats asthmatics all the same, it seems flawed to me as many asthmatics smoke and I am not like them, they might be allergic to cats and I am not for instance. I wouldn't take advice from people whose expertise or personal example they set in the given area appears questionable to me. Animal-eaters might be right on some things, smokers might be right on others, but no way is a smoker able to advise on chest problems and expect to be taken seriously. Like you I prefer sobriety, but I take it more seriously than you do. Lesley Oliver Slay [oliver] 27 April 2002 08:23 ' ' asthma [ot] I'm not asthmatic... i just find the Buteyko method useful for those times when i feel my nose getting blocked... i was telling you about this method... and you jumped back at me for smoking... i don't *happily* smoke... what on earth gave you that idea... Ashley's vision is a year old ... it seems you so little understand how difficult it can be for some smokers to quit... which is probably why you have so little compassion for those who can't... i don't agree with your idea that your mother wanted to pull you to her level of poor health... you don't think our parents *choose* to fuck us up do you? just as much as we don't *choose* to fuck our children up... what a poor mother you have ... you seem to have no sympathy for her shortcomings... as for the 'thanks for the advice but no thanks' ... it's not my advice... it's the Buteyko method... it's not mine... read it ... it's got fuck all to do with smokers... it's taught at a very good college here for alternative therapies... as a cure for asthma... if you were in a car accident and you were going to bleed to death ... would you refuse help from a doctor because he ate meat... ? the whole idea of refusing aid advice from people who don't fit your ideals is limiting... and therefore how can this lead to a fulfilling life? there are a lot of people out there who have a lot of ideas... and sometimes it's the ones who don't fit your perfect life that have the better ideas than the ones who do fit your perfect life... in that respect you shouldn't take any advice from an asthmatic... because he can't breath properly and thus is in no way qualified to give you advice on how to breath properly... you should get no advice from a doctor who has fallen ill... should not be taught how to drive by anyone who has been in an accident... and so on... and so on ... limit your life... go on ... stay in your rut... z > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > Friday, April 26, 2002 11:47 PM > > RE: asthma [ot] > > > > Right, thanks but I am puzzled that you would prefer to go > through a whole > load of difficult exercises, rather than quit smoking. I'd > prefer to simply > avoid smoke which is the main thing that aggravates my > catarrh and breathing > trouble, and do that rigorously even to the point of finding out about > whether there is a mask I can wear that filters it out if I > happen to have > to be anywhere near someone smoking. How can you carry on > being a smoker if > you have breathing problems when you get a cold? Makes no sense. > I don't understand how you can happily continue to do something that > obviously clogs your lungs with tar and immobilises the cilia > which are part > of the lungs' natural cleaning system. I was shocked when Ash > said he had > seen you chain-smoking. > I wonder, what has Dr Buteyko got to say about smokers? I > couldn't find > anything on the site about it but I didn't look at the whole > site. I cannot > respect any doctor who deals with the chest and asthma but > does not make a > big point of condemning smoking. I think he is kind of > missing the point > about the crap that is the biggest irritant to the lungs and > throat. We need > to eradicate the problem of smoking completely, then we would > see a real > difference. I really do not think exercises would help when I > am irritated > by smoke. > My mum is asthmatic and a smoker, silly woman! > She would probably not have any problems at all if she just > quit, and if she > had quit when I was young or before I was even conceived I > would most likely > have had no breathing problems whatsoever. I've no sympathy > at all with > asthmatics who smoke, especially since my mother's smoking > caused me to be > so ill. She was unhealthy (asthmatic since one of her childhood > vaccinations) and obviously could not bear to have a healthy > daughter she > would be jealous of, so she must have decided it was > ethically OK to drag me > down to her level of poor health. It's like diabetics eating > sugar, obese > people continuing to overeat, etc, except that smoking is > even worse because > it has a more seriously damaging effect on others around them! > > Thanks for thinking of me but do you seriously think I would > feel confident > to take the advice of a SMOKER on any issues relating to breathing > problems?? > Would I listen to a person eating McDonalds burgers on > anything relating to > either ethical issues or health? NO! I could not respect > their authority. > I can respect you for being a vegan and having some ethics, > but when it > comes to this issue, you have no credibility in my eyes > because of what you > are doing to your own lungs, and worst of all harming those > around you. It's > not a question of it being only your body so it's up to you, > if Ash the > non-smoker or other people are around and forced to breathe > your smoke. > I would listen to advice from someone like Ian who also can't > bear to be > around smoke, however, also because his physiology is most > likely more like > mine than yours is. > > Since I developed worse breathing trouble during my third > pregnancy, my mum > is more respectful about avoiding smoking near me, and I have > told her it is > too late, and she should have listened to me when I was a > child begging her > to stop making me ill!! She knew what she was doing to me, I > told her for > years, and I cannot truly forgive what she did to me when she > forced me to > breathe her smoke and I was powerless to avoid it. She left > me with a weak > chest for life. > > Lesley > > > > Oliver Slay [oliver] > 26 April 2002 16:04 > ' ' > asthma [ot] > > > i use the method when i feel a cold coming on ... or when i > feel my nose > blocking... i haven't looked into how it works... it's > something to do with > the balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen that we have in our > system... and > how that affects the tissues in the nasal passage... the > Buteyko method > works to reduce the constriction in the airways... somewhere > there's a good > page for teaching children the method... > > > Have you ever looked into the Buteyko method for relieving asthma..? > > > > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > > > > z > > > > > > > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > > > > > > As for the asthmatic attacks, the ventolin does sometimes > > > help, nothing to > > > do with placebos. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 Don't be sarcastic, you silly woman, allergies and asthma can be life-threatening! Lesley slg edith [slgedith] 27 April 2002 07:48 RE: asthma [ot] Edith Sorry can't speak, crying my fuc*ing eyes out! > " Lesley Dove " <Lesley > > >RE: asthma [ot] >Fri, 26 Apr 2002 23:46:48 +0100 > > >Right, thanks but I am puzzled that you would prefer to go through a whole >load of difficult exercises, rather than quit smoking. I'd prefer to simply >avoid smoke which is the main thing that aggravates my catarrh and >breathing >trouble, and do that rigorously even to the point of finding out about >whether there is a mask I can wear that filters it out if I happen to have >to be anywhere near someone smoking. How can you carry on being a smoker if >you have breathing problems when you get a cold? Makes no sense. >I don't understand how you can happily continue to do something that >obviously clogs your lungs with tar and immobilises the cilia which are >part >of the lungs' natural cleaning system. I was shocked when Ash said he had >seen you chain-smoking. >I wonder, what has Dr Buteyko got to say about smokers? I couldn't find >anything on the site about it but I didn't look at the whole site. I cannot >respect any doctor who deals with the chest and asthma but does not make a >big point of condemning smoking. I think he is kind of missing the point >about the crap that is the biggest irritant to the lungs and throat. We >need >to eradicate the problem of smoking completely, then we would see a real >difference. I really do not think exercises would help when I am irritated >by smoke. >My mum is asthmatic and a smoker, silly woman! >She would probably not have any problems at all if she just quit, and if >she >had quit when I was young or before I was even conceived I would most >likely >have had no breathing problems whatsoever. I've no sympathy at all with >asthmatics who smoke, especially since my mother's smoking caused me to be >so ill. She was unhealthy (asthmatic since one of her childhood >vaccinations) and obviously could not bear to have a healthy daughter she >would be jealous of, so she must have decided it was ethically OK to drag >me >down to her level of poor health. It's like diabetics eating sugar, obese >people continuing to overeat, etc, except that smoking is even worse >because >it has a more seriously damaging effect on others around them! > >Thanks for thinking of me but do you seriously think I would feel confident >to take the advice of a SMOKER on any issues relating to breathing >problems?? >Would I listen to a person eating McDonalds burgers on anything relating to >either ethical issues or health? NO! I could not respect their authority. >I can respect you for being a vegan and having some ethics, but when it >comes to this issue, you have no credibility in my eyes because of what you >are doing to your own lungs, and worst of all harming those around you. >It's >not a question of it being only your body so it's up to you, if Ash the >non-smoker or other people are around and forced to breathe your smoke. >I would listen to advice from someone like Ian who also can't bear to be >around smoke, however, also because his physiology is most likely more like >mine than yours is. > >Since I developed worse breathing trouble during my third pregnancy, my mum >is more respectful about avoiding smoking near me, and I have told her it >is >too late, and she should have listened to me when I was a child begging her >to stop making me ill!! She knew what she was doing to me, I told her for >years, and I cannot truly forgive what she did to me when she forced me to >breathe her smoke and I was powerless to avoid it. She left me with a weak >chest for life. > >Lesley > > > >Oliver Slay [oliver] >26 April 2002 16:04 >' ' > asthma [ot] > > >i use the method when i feel a cold coming on ... or when i feel my nose >blocking... i haven't looked into how it works... it's something to do with >the balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen that we have in our system... and >how that affects the tissues in the nasal passage... the Buteyko method >works to reduce the constriction in the airways... somewhere there's a >good >page for teaching children the method... > > > Have you ever looked into the Buteyko method for relieving asthma..? > > > > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > > > > z > > > > > > > > Lesley Dove [Lesley] > > > > > > As for the asthmatic attacks, the ventolin does sometimes > > > help, nothing to > > > do with placebos. > > > > > > Lesley > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you do happily > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. The people > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died because of > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and others. i do not see the link between a choice of doing something and being happy to do it... i choose to get out of bed in the morning to go to work... i am not happy doing it... we all have difficult choices but that does not mean we are happy to make those choices... i am not happy smoking ... and i have spent a great deal of time observing my reasons for smoking... and am in the process of giving up... which i have already written about... did you miss all that? did i write it in vain? no i am not happy buying cigarettes... i am not happy lighting it up... and i feel sick getting to the end of the cigarette... but i do not have the mental resources to quit full stop... and so i seek external help for this... and the people who can help me to understand are most likely ex-smokers because they understand the processes better than i do... > different physiology from mine, as I am severely allergic to cigarette smoke > as well as hating the smell to the point that I always threw up in pregnancy yes... this is a problem... i can understand where you are coming from... my father's new partner is the same... except she is perhaps a little more ill... with kidney complications resulting from an accident... she is a therapist living in Northumberland... he has managed to stop smoking except for the occasional pipe (once or twice a week).. but well away from her... > I'd consider homoeopathy as this takes into account different types of > people, a homoeopath asks questions about different likes and dislikes and > sensitivities, not treating us all the same as allopathic medicine (and > possibly the Buteyko method) does. I do not want something that treats > asthmatics all the same, it seems flawed to me as many asthmatics smoke and asthma and smoking are separate... there are people with asthma and there are people who smoke... and there are people with asthma and who smoke... i have been visiting a homoeopath for several years... she asks questions and writes down the answers completely ... this lasts about an hour... then she goes over her notes at home and picks out from all the remedies the one she feels fits the general gist of the answers... covering all the different moods, likes dislikes... etc... allopathic medicine is .. well... flawed... Buteyko... is not allopathic ... and it does cover all people the same because everybody's body reacts in a similar way to differing levels of carbon dioxide and oxygen... the method is counter-intuitive... if you have an asthma attack your intuitive response is to gasp for breath... but this only increases the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream... it increases the oxygen in your tissues which then expand... causing more constriction... causing you to gasp more... the Buteyko method counters this ... and asks you to *hold* after you have breathed out... to let the body use the oxygen you have taken in... to give the body time to convert any oxygen left into CO2 so that it can be expelled... you then breath in slowly ... and breath out ... then you hold your breath again... asthmatics can usually hold for between 2-5 seconds... before the slight urge to breath in arises... non-asthmatics can hold for longer .. upto 15-25 seconds before they feel a slight urge to breath in... if you hold just a little longer past the slight feeling that you need to breath in before you breath in... then you can reduce the constriction that is causing your asthma attack... this is the reasoning behind Buteyko... and it is universal for all human beings... > I wouldn't take advice from people whose expertise or personal example they > set in the given area appears questionable to me. we learn by failure and success... the very people who fail your ideals will be the ones who are best qualified to help... obviously you know this ... because you have never smoked ... you're completely the wrong person to help someone else stop smoking... > Animal-eaters might be right on some things, smokers might be right on > others, but no way is a smoker able to advise on chest problems and expect > to be taken seriously. i thought you said you had asthma... my grandmother died of asthma (and smoking)... my best friend has asthma... i found this site for him ... because i have an interest in alternative therapies... because i don't believe that allopathic medicine is the only way... and because he had trouble on a few occasions when he did not have medicine with him... having found this site which has nothing to do with me... nothing to do with smokers or smoking... but purely asthma and its alleviation ... and you throw it back in my face because i smoke... i'm afraid i just think that is petty and stupid... i have no sympathy for someone who does not help themself once they have been shown a better way... there are billions of people who have something to offer us... they are the other citizens of this world... each and every one of them is important in their own way ... we all reduce these billions to but a few because of our prejudices and biases... and we feel lonely... we could open to the possibilities there in front of our faces but we don't ... we look inward... we shy away ... we hide ... we brush aside... because he smokes... because he eats meat... based on a single principle your bias misses the rest of what makes up that person.... you reduce the wonderful picture of another human being into a petty negative outline... > Like you I prefer sobriety, but I take it more seriously than you do. > > Lesley well perhaps rather too seriously... 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Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 Sorry that I get aggressive against all smokers, even those who are kind vegans who try to help. It has a lot to do with my childhood misery, my mother smoking constantly around me, maybe you do not inflict it on others the same way, and good luck with quitting, I really hope you succeed. Try Brian Jacobs maybe? http://www.hypnoticsolutions.freeserve.co.uk/hypnosis.htm " asthmatics can usually hold for between 2-5 seconds... before the slight urge to breath in arises... non-asthmatics can hold for longer .. upto 15-25 seconds before they feel a slight urge to breath in... " I certainly can't hold my breath out for very long, so that would point to me being asthmatic, although not officially diagnosed. I was terribly sickly as a child with lots of catarrh and coughs, but at no point did the doctor ever tell my mother she should quit smoking for my health. A good reason why I don't have great trust in most doctors. Lesley zorgster [oliver] 27 April 2002 11:48 Re: asthma [ot] , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you do happily > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. The people > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died because of > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and others. i do not see the link between a choice of doing something and being happy to do it... i choose to get out of bed in the morning to go to work... i am not happy doing it... we all have difficult choices but that does not mean we are happy to make those choices... i am not happy smoking ... and i have spent a great deal of time observing my reasons for smoking... and am in the process of giving up... which i have already written about... did you miss all that? did i write it in vain? no i am not happy buying cigarettes... i am not happy lighting it up... and i feel sick getting to the end of the cigarette... but i do not have the mental resources to quit full stop... and so i seek external help for this... and the people who can help me to understand are most likely ex-smokers because they understand the processes better than i do... > different physiology from mine, as I am severely allergic to cigarette smoke > as well as hating the smell to the point that I always threw up in pregnancy yes... this is a problem... i can understand where you are coming from... my father's new partner is the same... except she is perhaps a little more ill... with kidney complications resulting from an accident... she is a therapist living in Northumberland... he has managed to stop smoking except for the occasional pipe (once or twice a week).. but well away from her... > I'd consider homoeopathy as this takes into account different types of > people, a homoeopath asks questions about different likes and dislikes and > sensitivities, not treating us all the same as allopathic medicine (and > possibly the Buteyko method) does. I do not want something that treats > asthmatics all the same, it seems flawed to me as many asthmatics smoke and asthma and smoking are separate... there are people with asthma and there are people who smoke... and there are people with asthma and who smoke... i have been visiting a homoeopath for several years... she asks questions and writes down the answers completely ... this lasts about an hour... then she goes over her notes at home and picks out from all the remedies the one she feels fits the general gist of the answers... covering all the different moods, likes dislikes... etc... allopathic medicine is .. well... flawed... Buteyko... is not allopathic ... and it does cover all people the same because everybody's body reacts in a similar way to differing levels of carbon dioxide and oxygen... the method is counter-intuitive... if you have an asthma attack your intuitive response is to gasp for breath... but this only increases the amount of oxygen in your bloodstream... it increases the oxygen in your tissues which then expand... causing more constriction... causing you to gasp more... the Buteyko method counters this ... and asks you to *hold* after you have breathed out... to let the body use the oxygen you have taken in... to give the body time to convert any oxygen left into CO2 so that it can be expelled... you then breath in slowly ... and breath out ... then you hold your breath again... asthmatics can usually hold for between 2-5 seconds... before the slight urge to breath in arises... non-asthmatics can hold for longer .. upto 15-25 seconds before they feel a slight urge to breath in... if you hold just a little longer past the slight feeling that you need to breath in before you breath in... then you can reduce the constriction that is causing your asthma attack... this is the reasoning behind Buteyko... and it is universal for all human beings... > I wouldn't take advice from people whose expertise or personal example they > set in the given area appears questionable to me. we learn by failure and success... the very people who fail your ideals will be the ones who are best qualified to help... obviously you know this ... because you have never smoked ... you're completely the wrong person to help someone else stop smoking... > Animal-eaters might be right on some things, smokers might be right on > others, but no way is a smoker able to advise on chest problems and expect > to be taken seriously. i thought you said you had asthma... my grandmother died of asthma (and smoking)... my best friend has asthma... i found this site for him ... because i have an interest in alternative therapies... because i don't believe that allopathic medicine is the only way... and because he had trouble on a few occasions when he did not have medicine with him... having found this site which has nothing to do with me... nothing to do with smokers or smoking... but purely asthma and its alleviation ... and you throw it back in my face because i smoke... i'm afraid i just think that is petty and stupid... i have no sympathy for someone who does not help themself once they have been shown a better way... there are billions of people who have something to offer us... they are the other citizens of this world... each and every one of them is important in their own way ... we all reduce these billions to but a few because of our prejudices and biases... and we feel lonely... we could open to the possibilities there in front of our faces but we don't ... we look inward... we shy away ... we hide ... we brush aside... because he smokes... because he eats meat... based on a single principle your bias misses the rest of what makes up that person.... you reduce the wonderful picture of another human being into a petty negative outline... > Like you I prefer sobriety, but I take it more seriously than you do. > > Lesley well perhaps rather too seriously... ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? 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Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 i appreciate the link... (i did find it only an hour ago too :-) ... i have been trying to find time to go to a hypnotherapist all week... i have little time to myself (minutes)... so sometimes my intentions get drawn out over long periods of time... i have been looking today and already spoken with several people (all booked up! and i want to do it now... impatient as ever...) i didn't call Mr Brian tho... i think i need more perseverence than luck in giving up... but thanks... when i first tried holding i couldn't get more than 5 seconds... now i can get upto about 15... on a good day :-) ... but i think it's amazing how clear breathing feels after a minute or two of doing the breathing exercises... i think that most asthmatics can hold for between 2-5 seconds... but not everyone who can hold for 2-5 seconds is asthmatic... it may just be the weakness from your early exposure to smoke... but with practise you can hold for longer and longer... the Hale Clinic in London holds a one week breathing course teaching the Buteyko method... z , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > Sorry that I get aggressive against all smokers, even those who are kind > vegans who try to help. It has a lot to do with my childhood misery, my > mother smoking constantly around me, maybe you do not inflict it on others > the same way, and good luck with quitting, I really hope you succeed. > Try Brian Jacobs maybe? > http://www.hypnoticsolutions.freeserve.co.uk/hypnosis.htm > > " asthmatics can usually hold for between 2-5 seconds... before the > slight urge to breath in arises... non-asthmatics can hold for > longer .. upto 15-25 seconds before they feel a slight urge to breath > in... " > > I certainly can't hold my breath out for very long, so that would point to > me being asthmatic, although not officially diagnosed. > I was terribly sickly as a child with lots of catarrh and coughs, but at no > point did the doctor ever tell my mother she should quit smoking for my > health. > A good reason why I don't have great trust in most doctors. > > Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you do > happily > > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. The > people > > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died > because of > > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and others. Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into one of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the world is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! Jules the smoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 I do think you deserve compassion, yes I do sympathise. No wonder you feel that way. It is horrible having to live in such a world full of callous animal eaters, but it would not make the world any better if you kill yourself. If you stay alive you have more chance of influencing others by your vegan example and you are more likely to do it well if you are drug-free. Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? Lesley djules_75 [djules_75] 27 April 2002 17:49 Re: asthma [ot] > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you do > happily > > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. The > people > > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died > because of > > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and others. Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into one of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the world is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! Jules the smoker ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2002 Report Share Posted April 27, 2002 'ello? are we paying a little visit to emotional blackmail land??? Where's Barry Horne when you need him, eh? > Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into one > of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into > mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the world > is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? > You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! > > Jules the smoker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? Last time I gave up I started again because of how bad the world is and felt guilty for being so healthy, my life was too optimal. Once I'm back on the nicotine I forget about everything everytime i light another one, including the world. I'm thinking of trying to give up again. Don't worry I won't jump into any mincing machines. Jules > Lesley > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 27 April 2002 17:49 > > Re: asthma [ot] > > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you > do > > happily > > > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. > The > > people > > > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died > > because of > > > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and > others. > > Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into one > of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into > mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the world > is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? > You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! > > Jules the smoker > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Instead of feeling guilty for being so healthy, use it to help the world, why not do something to help a sick or disabled person, or anyone else in need of help locally (even maybe another vegan)? There is lots of need for volunteers. When I was younger and had no kids, I had loads of time and energy to do as I liked and I used to give up some of my time to be one of the helpers for a mother who needed volunteers to help with her brain-damaged child's therapy exercises, to help his development. I felt guilty when I moved from the area and gave up being one of their volunteers, but she fortunately had a number of volunteers on different days of ther week and was certainly not alone. Not a veggie family, but the child still deserved the help. If you are young, fit and healthy, you would probably make a good hunt saboteur too! Think about it. If you are vegan and trying to live ethically you deserve to be healthy, don't you think, as you are living a compassionate life? Not that I am convinced of any kind of universal justice (too many children and animals suffering and dying horribly and DEFINITELY not deserving of it), but if there is any justice, you did probably deserve good health when you had quit smoking. Why should you feel guilty for being in good health? If you make yourself ill by smoking, you will soon end up feeling quite rightly guilty for being a drain on health service resources, because it would be your own fault. Feel guilty for taking things from the world that you don't need or deserve, but not for things you do need and deserve, give back what you can, and don't abuse your good fortune. I sometimes wonder if I didn't do enough to help people, when I had time and the circumstances to, since now that I need just a very little help I can't even find babysitters, and I haven't ever asked for a lot of help! But I know the problem is just that most people are selfish, and I resolve not to be like that, even when my life changes again and I have time to live my life as I choose, I will still most likely find some way of helping others if I am in good enough health. I suppose I was so sickly as a child, which I felt was undeserved, that I certainly did not feel undeserving of good health when I had a few years of it as a young adult after having moved out of my parents' smoky abode. Good luck with quitting smoking, and remember good health and fortune are not a cue for guilt but maybe a call to help others less fortunate. Lesley djules_75 [djules_75] 28 April 2002 13:31 Re: asthma [ot] , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? Last time I gave up I started again because of how bad the world is and felt guilty for being so healthy, my life was too optimal. Once I'm back on the nicotine I forget about everything everytime i light another one, including the world. I'm thinking of trying to give up again. Don't worry I won't jump into any mincing machines. Jules > Lesley > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 27 April 2002 17:49 > > Re: asthma [ot] > > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you > do > > happily > > > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. > The > > people > > > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died > > because of > > > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and > others. > > Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into one > of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into > mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the world > is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? > You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! > > Jules the smoker > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 > , Jules wrote: > > > Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? > > Last time I gave up I started again because of how bad the world is > and felt guilty for being so healthy, my life was too optimal. Once > I'm back on the nicotine I forget about everything everytime i light > another one, including the world. that's a little misleading ... there are two components to smoking - nicotine and the habit... nicotine gives pleasure... increases blood pressure... heart rate etc... it's the thought-less repetitive movement of hand to mouth and sucking that makes you forget about everything else in the world... (or maybe reminds you of a time when you had nothing to worry about and you were sucking...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Increased blood pressure and a faster heart rate is not pleasurable, I thought these were usually associated with stress and panic not pleasure, would not be nice for me anyway, so again I do not understand why this would make you want to smoke. As for the sucking, and nothing to worry about, you mean it's a breast substitute so actually smokers just have never grown up, never fully weaned? That sounds about right to me. Lesley Oliver Slay [oliver] 28 April 2002 15:50 ' ' RE: Re: asthma [ot] > , Jules wrote: > > > Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? > > Last time I gave up I started again because of how bad the world is > and felt guilty for being so healthy, my life was too optimal. Once > I'm back on the nicotine I forget about everything everytime i light > another one, including the world. that's a little misleading ... there are two components to smoking - nicotine and the habit... nicotine gives pleasure... increases blood pressure... heart rate etc... it's the thought-less repetitive movement of hand to mouth and sucking that makes you forget about everything else in the world... (or maybe reminds you of a time when you had nothing to worry about and you were sucking...) ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 > Increased blood pressure and a faster heart rate is not pleasurable, I > thought these were usually associated with stress and panic > not pleasure, > would not be nice for me anyway, so again I do not understand > why this would > make you want to smoke. no it's the habit that makes you forget things that makes you want to smoke, want to forget the stresses on your life... the nicotine and the habit are together strongly addictive... you can cut the habit but the (short-term) need for nicotine makes you smoke... you can try and withstand the need for nicotine but the strength of the habit is still there... altho the health reasons for stopping are well known... the short term gains for most smokers are minimal... the gains come over a week or two... and it's hard to stop for that long without something like hypnotherapy... after a week or two of stopping the nicotine cravings begin to stop... hypnotherapy helped me to forget the habit for long enough until the nicotine craving stopped... (altho the hypnotherapist doesn't specifically tell you to 'forget the habit')... i had a period of more stress than normal over Christmas and unfortunately the only way i could deal it was through smoking... however i am more aware of how my stress builds up to the point where i need to smoke .. so i can go back to a hypnotherapist with this information and approach it in a modified way... a way that will be more successful than the last... and maybe i won't smoke again... maybe i will ... if so i shall have to repeat it again... and this is what i mean when i say i am actively giving up... > As for the sucking, and nothing to worry about, you mean it's a breast > substitute so actually smokers just have never grown up, > never fully weaned? > That sounds about right to me. > > Lesley it's only a possibility... however i think the case for habit is stronger than the case for breast substitute... not growing up is not just restricted to smokers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 You talkin' to me? Huh? You talkin' to me??? xxk@xx Oliver Slay [oliver]28 April 2002 16:47' 'RE: Re: asthma [ot] not growing up is not just restricted to smokers...~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 He probably meant me as well, and a few others! Lesley k@ [kittyveg]28 April 2002 18:21 Subject: RE: Re: asthma [ot] You talkin' to me? Huh? You talkin' to me??? xxk@xx Oliver Slay [oliver]28 April 2002 16:47' 'RE: Re: asthma [ot] not growing up is not just restricted to smokers...~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 and me too.... :-) z Lesley Dove [Lesley]Sunday, April 28, 2002 6:37 PM Subject: RE: Re: asthma [ot] He probably meant me as well, and a few others! Lesley k@ [kittyveg]28 April 2002 18:21 Subject: RE: Re: asthma [ot] You talkin' to me? Huh? You talkin' to me??? xxk@xx Oliver Slay [oliver]28 April 2002 16:47' 'RE: Re: asthma [ot] not growing up is not just restricted to smokers...~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 Now that's advice I'm willing to accept !! Jules , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > Instead of feeling guilty for being so healthy, use it to help the world, > why not do something to help a sick or disabled person, or anyone else in > need of help locally (even maybe another vegan)? There is lots of need for > volunteers. > When I was younger and had no kids, I had loads of time and energy to do as > I liked and I used to give up some of my time to be one of the helpers for a > mother who needed volunteers to help with her brain-damaged child's therapy > exercises, to help his development. I felt guilty when I moved from the area > and gave up being one of their volunteers, but she fortunately had a number > of volunteers on different days of ther week and was certainly not alone. > Not a veggie family, but the child still deserved the help. > If you are young, fit and healthy, you would probably make a good hunt > saboteur too! Think about it. > If you are vegan and trying to live ethically you deserve to be healthy, > don't you think, as you are living a compassionate life? Not that I am > convinced of any kind of universal justice (too many children and animals > suffering and dying horribly and DEFINITELY not deserving of it), but if > there is any justice, you did probably deserve good health when you had quit > smoking. > Why should you feel guilty for being in good health? If you make yourself > ill by smoking, you will soon end up feeling quite rightly guilty for being > a drain on health service resources, because it would be your own fault. > Feel guilty for taking things from the world that you don't need or deserve, > but not for things you do need and deserve, give back what you can, and > don't abuse your good fortune. > I sometimes wonder if I didn't do enough to help people, when I had time and > the circumstances to, since now that I need just a very little help I can't > even find babysitters, and I haven't ever asked for a lot of help! But I > know the problem is just that most people are selfish, and I resolve not to > be like that, even when my life changes again and I have time to live my > life as I choose, I will still most likely find some way of helping others > if I am in good enough health. > I suppose I was so sickly as a child, which I felt was undeserved, that I > certainly did not feel undeserving of good health when I had a few years of > it as a young adult after having moved out of my parents' smoky abode. > Good luck with quitting smoking, and remember good health and fortune are > not a cue for guilt but maybe a call to help others less fortunate. > > Lesley > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > 28 April 2002 13:31 > > Re: asthma [ot] > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > Does the smoking make you forget how bad the world is? > > Last time I gave up I started again because of how bad the world is > and felt guilty for being so healthy, my life was too optimal. Once > I'm back on the nicotine I forget about everything everytime i light > another one, including the world. > I'm thinking of trying to give up again. > Don't worry I won't jump into any mincing machines. > > Jules > > > Lesley > > > > > > djules_75 [djules_75] > > 27 April 2002 17:49 > > > > Re: asthma [ot] > > > > > > > , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > > > > > > > You choose to go out and buy your cigarettes, therefore yes you > > do > > > happily > > > > smoke, it's a premeditated and thought out action. No excuse. > > The > > > people > > > > deserving of compassion are the people like Roy Castle who died > > > because of > > > > others' selfishness, not those who do it to themselves and > > others. > > > > Oh yeah so if I decide to commit suicide by throwing myself into > one > > of the churning machines they put animals through to turn them into > > mincemeat and leave a suicide note saying I did it because the > world > > is full of selfish meat eaters, would i deserve some compassion? > > You can do it Lesley, you can sign my death warrant! > > > > Jules the smoker > > > > > > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > > --------------------------- > > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2002 Report Share Posted April 28, 2002 , Oliver Slay <oliver@l...> wrote: > it's the thought-less repetitive movement of hand to mouth and sucking that > makes you forget about everything else in the world... (or maybe reminds you > of a time when you had nothing to worry about and you were sucking...) No, I'd properly given up the habit and the chemical addiction: wasn't fidgety, wasn't gasping to suck on anything, didn't need patches or gum. I missed fucking up my body. I'd tried sport, like running, swimming, football I found it pointless. I missed the pointlessness of putting unneeded toxins into my body, and incapacitating myself in the process so that I couldn't worry or do anything, and also the crap cynical sociable (with other smokers) dark humour that I had when a smoker. Of course, as I'm back to being addicted to sucking smoke, I really don't see now what made me want to pick up the cigarettes again. Jules Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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