Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 " Anyone who wants to save the foxes should be allowed to go sabbing, even if they are Nazis....just because someone has inconsistent views is no reason to cut them off from sabbing, it's about saving animals' lives not demanding absolute agreement on other issues! " --Leslie I have the right to demand " absolute agreement " that the fascists' intended victims have the right not to be turned into dog-meat and glue!!! You make it sound like Hitler's problem was he wasn't a " consistent " vegetarian or something!!! In case you missed it, the Nazi programme of GENOCIDE is 100% antithetical to vegan ideals even if " green issues " are part of their *nature-worship* mumbo-jumbo!!! Let me make it easy for you! The group of sabs that knowingly tolerate this crap share responsibility for the fascists' crimes and drag all decent sabs into the filth: they should be exposed and driven out -- tolerated never!!! If a Halal butcher is attacked by these scum I would defend the Halal meat trader and not allow the fascists to scapegoat the Muslim minority for all the crimes of the meat-murder industry!!! Edith French _______________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 I understand perfectly well what these people are about Edith, quit busting a blood vessel will ya? You are preaching at the wrong person here! Preach at young people who don't know, not at me, I'm old enough to know my own views. If Nazis are treated like anyone else and welcomed to hunt sabbing, as I see it they are being turned away from doing bad things, so it's better that they do that than harm people. I never believed Hitler was a vegetarian either! I heard he just cut down on meat and toyed with vegetarian diets on his doctor's orders, I doubt he was ever ethical about it. You have made your point you hate Nazis more than you respect animals. That is your choice, but I respect life more than I hate anyone as I would work with animal-eaters or Nazis or pro-choicers if it was for some good to come of it either for people or animals. I just don't see Nazis as any more evil than anyone else who promotes killing as a solution to what they see as a problem. To me it is all the same, whether it is animals, minority groups of human beings or the unborn, try to understand that. If animal-eaters are welcomed hunt-sabbing, does that mean that the vegans welcoming them share responsibilty for their animal-eating, obviously not, so why is working with these people any different? I would find it hard to be around fascists, wouldn't feel I could actually be friends with them, I admit that would not be possible for me and as you know I take that attitude to animal-eaters. I have thought this out for myself and my viewpoint seems consistent to me, so I don't think you will change me Edith, but I would not try to change you on this as I know you have your views and I have mine. It does not make me a Nazi sympathiser just because we would have different approaches. Lesley slg edith [slgedith] 01 May 2002 10:57 RE: nazis (what is this crap?) " Anyone who wants to save the foxes should be allowed to go sabbing, even if they are Nazis....just because someone has inconsistent views is no reason to cut them off from sabbing, it's about saving animals' lives not demanding absolute agreement on other issues! " --Leslie I have the right to demand " absolute agreement " that the fascists' intended victims have the right not to be turned into dog-meat and glue!!! You make it sound like Hitler's problem was he wasn't a " consistent " vegetarian or something!!! In case you missed it, the Nazi programme of GENOCIDE is 100% antithetical to vegan ideals even if " green issues " are part of their *nature-worship* mumbo-jumbo!!! Let me make it easy for you! The group of sabs that knowingly tolerate this crap share responsibility for the fascists' crimes and drag all decent sabs into the filth: they should be exposed and driven out -- tolerated never!!! If a Halal butcher is attacked by these scum I would defend the Halal meat trader and not allow the fascists to scapegoat the Muslim minority for all the crimes of the meat-murder industry!!! Edith French _______________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Leslie wants Nazis to be " treated like anyone else and welcomed to hunt sabbing " ! Why don't she just put up a sign " Whites Only " ! Because, funny enough, where race-hate terrorists are " welcomed " their intended victims are not! Or does she seriously expect me to treat fascists who would turn me into dog food just " like anyone else " ? Is AR so fuc*ed up we have to " welcome " scum to help us out???? Edith French _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Any trouble from them and of course they should be kicked out but if they are prepared to go hunt sabbing and leave their prejudices outside, and not cause trouble within the group, I stand by what I said. I don't think many of them would be joining anyway, not enough to be a real threat. AR should welcome anyone who is interested. Lesley slg edith [slgedith] 01 May 2002 12:31 RE: nazis (what is this crap?) Leslie wants Nazis to be " treated like anyone else and welcomed to hunt sabbing " ! Why don't she just put up a sign " Whites Only " ! Because, funny enough, where race-hate terrorists are " welcomed " their intended victims are not! Or does she seriously expect me to treat fascists who would turn me into dog food just " like anyone else " ? Is AR so fuc*ed up we have to " welcome " scum to help us out???? Edith French _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Is it the heat or am I about to agree with Edith. Ooh dear. >...go hunt sabbing and leave their prejudices outside... Erm, you can't really leave your prejudices aside, that's what makes them prejudices. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Rubbish! Lots of us have to leave our feelings about people aside, eg how we feel about animal-eaters, just to get through life in this world! We have to be nice to people we'd probably sooner kick in the eye for instance for their everyday part in the murder of animals, but being polite is good practice for dealing reasonably with fascists I suppose and it makes us better people, learning to control this anger. Yep, Michael, it must be the heat, with you normally being so good at critical thinking and all that. Lesley Mavreela [nec.lists] 01 May 2002 13:21 RE: nazis (what is this crap?) Is it the heat or am I about to agree with Edith. Ooh dear. >...go hunt sabbing and leave their prejudices outside... Erm, you can't really leave your prejudices aside, that's what makes them prejudices. Michael ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Leslie actually says that Nazis should be " welcomed " by AR groups so long as they don't " cause trouble within the group " ! For AR, that would be the kiss of death, giving " green " cred to Nazi killers and letting them do their dirty work outside the group! Leslie refuses to understand what all the fuss is about when I say that fascists would turn me into dog food! Yeah, what were the horrors of the Nazi death camps compared with Leslie's allergy to smokers (which is where Leslie's " tolerance " ends)? Edith French _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 Dull minutiae time, a prejudice is a preconceived idea, it is not something you can choose to have and therefore you can never put it aside. A prejudice is not necessarily a bad thing but it has taken on this connotation because of rationalists who think to achieve some sort of perfection we should clear our minds of everything that is not a empirically proven fact. >Rubbish! Lots of us have to leave our feelings about people aside, eg how we >feel about animal-eaters, just to get through life in this world! A feeling is not the same as a prejudice. Besides which someone with prejudices towards another believes they are something (which they may or may not be) without rational cause. Would you say that your feeling towards meat eaters is rational? If so it isn't the same as a prejudice. And aside from all that, not all vegetarians or vegans have the same negative feelings towards meat eaters, or at least not to the same strengths. >We have to >be nice to people we'd probably sooner kick in the eye for instance for >their everyday part in the murder of animals... You are assuming the prejudiced person sees the murder of animals has being more important that whatever they are prejudiced against, which to be true would mean they are not prejudiced but have made a rational decision. And if that is the case they will not tolerate standing with those who they are 'prejudiced' against, it would contradict everything they believed in, regardless of the, possibly greater, cause. >But being polite is good >practice for dealing reasonably with fascists I suppose and it makes us >better people, learning to control this anger. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should condemn all fascists etc., I stood up for them being welcome on this list so long as they are not doing so just to push their views, but that's because the anonymity of the internet provides certain protections, because I think pushing them underground makes the problem worse, because they can be exposed for what they are, because rational debate takes away a lot of their power, and only lastly because their being vegan is something which should be supported as a very minimum. Certainly not as the primary consideration. I certainly would not feel safe standing side by side with a fascist who was prejudiced against my sexuality, how could I be? Do you really think I could trust someone just because at that particular time we are united in a common goal? And it must be much worse for someone of an ethnic minority where their difference was much more palpable (be it accent, or more obvious still, skin colour). And to put it all about face - could you stand side by side with a vivisectionist, or huntsman, protesting against fascists? If you say yes you undermine your whole argument as you are saying that the fascists and vivisectionist are equal. If you say no then you are guilty of implicitly supporting the fascist, making the suffering of non human animals more important than that of humans (which is not to say that the converse is true, only that they should be considered equally, unless good reason can be given in that particular instance), and alienating yourself from the victims of fascists who you choose not to support. The lesson in all this? Don't challenge my critical thinking 8-) Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2002 Report Share Posted May 1, 2002 I'm not allergic to smokers, just smoke. I have no problem if they don't smoke near me. Likewise no problem with people of varying political views within AR, so long as they don't push their other views on anything to the extent that it detracts from why the group is there. I was almost forced out of an animal rights group once for my pro-life views, and that would have been unfair if they had kicked me out, but as I was never mean to anyone who I knew in the group who had had an abortion. There was at least one woman who had and she was one of the people who was least mean to me about my pro-life stance, showing more respect for me than many others in the group, and I proved it did not cause any problems in the group except in the eyes of one or two intolerant people. Of course I was not thrown out, but I was angry that it was even considered in the first place as I had done nothing wrong! No-one will get the chance to turn you into dog food. I really cannot see that happening, but if you disallow fascists who is next? Lesley slg edith [slgedith] 01 May 2002 14:08 RE: nazis (what is this crap?) Leslie actually says that Nazis should be " welcomed " by AR groups so long as they don't " cause trouble within the group " ! For AR, that would be the kiss of death, giving " green " cred to Nazi killers and letting them do their dirty work outside the group! Leslie refuses to understand what all the fuss is about when I say that fascists would turn me into dog food! Yeah, what were the horrors of the Nazi death camps compared with Leslie's allergy to smokers (which is where Leslie's " tolerance " ends)? Edith French _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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