nazis (what is this crap?)

[Guest guest]

it's not about the fascists saving animals .... it's about them having contacts within the AR groups... a fact that they would use to lever their position later on...

 

you might be saving animals ... but there's another game being played and it's about people...

 

k@ [kittyveg]

 

..everybody seems to avoiding the question of "is it right to dictate who does, and does not save animals"? Is it the heat or am I about to agree with Edith. Ooh dear.>...go hunt sabbing and leave their prejudices outside...Erm, you can't really leave your prejudices aside, that's what makes them prejudices.Michael

[Guest guest]

I don't mind dull minutiae, in moderation of course!

 

I would say my feelings about animal-eaters are quite rational, but then I

suppose fascists would think their feelings/beliefs were rational too, so

where does that leave us?

 

I agree totally with your reasons for not pushing fascism underground, no

argument there!

I believe that they should be allowed in rational debate and this is

sufficient to expose them for what they are. If they are silenced, it might

actually increas the numbers who sympathise with them because those

silencing them will be seen by some people as being unreasonable, and this

could provoke a reaction in fascists favour.

 

I would not be too happy alongside a vivisector or hunter against fascists,

any more than I would be happy around a fascist in an AR group (although

unlike you and Edith, I would not have reason to feel threatened by them

personally just for what I am, so I would be able to tolerate their

presence) but I would accept it that anti-AR people have the right to be

against fascism, and within an anti-fascist group I would expect all sorts

of people who would disagree with me on other issues. That is reality. The

same in animal rights. If you join a single issue cause, you have to accept

a wide variance of people's views on other issues.

I don't think I've undermined any of my own arguments, I think I am

consistent!

 

I was subjected to enough hostility for my pro-life views within AR, and I

believe that this insistence on agreeing to a certain overall political

agenda within single issue campaigns has to stop, as it weakens the cause

and cuts off a lot of support.

On the other hand I have almost never had any negative treatment from

pro-life animal eaters to my veganism. This was the opposite of my

expectations. I definitely expected pro-lifers to be more anti-AR than AR

people to be anti-pro-lifers.

 

Lesley

 

 

 

Mavreela [nec.lists]

01 May 2002 14:30

 

RE: nazis (what is this crap?)

 

 

Dull minutiae time, a prejudice is a preconceived idea, it is not something

you can choose to have and therefore you can never put it aside. A

prejudice is not necessarily a bad thing but it has taken on this

connotation because of rationalists who think to achieve some sort of

perfection we should clear our minds of everything that is not a

empirically proven fact.

 

>Rubbish! Lots of us have to leave our feelings about people aside, eg how

we

>feel about animal-eaters, just to get through life in this world!

 

A feeling is not the same as a prejudice. Besides which someone with

prejudices towards another believes they are something (which they may or

may not be) without rational cause. Would you say that your feeling

towards meat eaters is rational? If so it isn't the same as a

prejudice. And aside from all that, not all vegetarians or vegans have the

same negative feelings towards meat eaters, or at least not to the same

strengths.

 

>We have to

>be nice to people we'd probably sooner kick in the eye for instance for

>their everyday part in the murder of animals...

 

You are assuming the prejudiced person sees the murder of animals has being

more important that whatever they are prejudiced against, which to be true

would mean they are not prejudiced but have made a rational decision. And

if that is the case they will not tolerate standing with those who they are

'prejudiced' against, it would contradict everything they believed in,

regardless of the, possibly greater, cause.

 

>But being polite is good

>practice for dealing reasonably with fascists I suppose and it makes us

>better people, learning to control this anger.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should condemn all fascists etc., I

stood up for them being welcome on this list so long as they are not doing

so just to push their views, but that's because the anonymity of the

internet provides certain protections, because I think pushing them

underground makes the problem worse, because they can be exposed for what

they are, because rational debate takes away a lot of their power, and only

lastly because their being vegan is something which should be supported as

a very minimum. Certainly not as the primary consideration.

 

I certainly would not feel safe standing side by side with a fascist who

was prejudiced against my sexuality, how could I be? Do you really think I

could trust someone just because at that particular time we are united in a

common goal? And it must be much worse for someone of an ethnic minority

where their difference was much more palpable (be it accent, or more

obvious still, skin colour).

 

And to put it all about face - could you stand side by side with a

vivisectionist, or huntsman, protesting against fascists? If you say yes

you undermine your whole argument as you are saying that the fascists and

vivisectionist are equal. If you say no then you are guilty of implicitly

supporting the fascist, making the suffering of non human animals more

important than that of humans (which is not to say that the converse is

true, only that they should be considered equally, unless good reason can

be given in that particular instance), and alienating yourself from the

victims of fascists who you choose not to support.

 

The lesson in all this? Don't challenge my critical thinking 8-)

 

Michael

 

 

 

~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,

there may be another side to the story you have not heard.

---------------------------

Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>

Un: send a blank message to -