smoking

March 15, 2001

what about marlboro lights???

> " Emily Howarth " <dropscone

>vegan-network

> smoking

>Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:12:45 -0000

>

>I've just stopped smoking, so I spose I shouldn't be recommending anything

>to do with it, but I know how hard it is to stop, so I have to say that

>while most tobacco isn't vegan for one reason or another the Vegan magazine

>recommended American Spirit ciggies which I smoked while I was still

>smoking.

>

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>

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March 15, 2001

> what about marlboro lights???

See message 588, back a few pages, I have copied there some bits from

a website which explains about animal products in cigarettes,

Marlboro contains glycerol which may be animal-derived, and may

contain other animal ingredients.

The first issue that made me aware of how cruel the human race is to

animals, and subsequently led to me setting out on the road to

veganism, was the ICI smoking beagles experiment.

I identified with them, because I was a sickly child who had been

forced to breathe in my mother's cigarette smoke for years. I had

constant chest infections and was on antibiotics several times a year

because of it. I only got better when I left home, no chest

infections so long as I avoid smoky environments.

There are many better thing you can do with your money than put it

into tobacco companies which make their money out of death and misery

(human and animal).

It was always pretty obvious to me, even as a child, that smoking was

stupid, stinky and unhealthy, that's called having basic common sense.

Some of us are born with it, some have to try and learn it, I suppose!

The tobacco companies rely on people who don't have common sense, and

I'm sad to see that that even includes some vegans.

Finally I would contend that smoking is not a vegan behaviour, since

veganism is about compassion for all sentient creatures, but by

smoking you are not showing much compassion for yourself.

Lesley

March 16, 2001

It takes a lot more than basic common sense to keep people away from

starting smoking in their youth. Granted anyone who picks up the habit over

20yrs or so should really know better, but there are a hell of a lot more

elements involved in starting when you are younger. I certainly don`t think

tobacco companies rely on people not having common sense. If it where, I

doubt anyone would smoke.

I`m glad thet John and (I hope others) picked up on the point during the

flames that being " vegan " is not a defined point, and for this reason I

still have compassion and understanding towards people who unfortunaely got

caught up in smoking and find it very hard to stop.

I wouldn`t say they are less or more of a vegan than a non smoker. They are

on the right path. If you can get people to eat a vegetarian meal once a

week, surely that is better than nothing. We all as vegans make lifestyle

changes, and we all (hopefully) have a good idea of right/wrong and where we

are headed. But we are all a different points along the road. Lets offer

encouragement rather than condemnation.

>It was always pretty obvious to me, even as a child, that smoking was

>stupid, stinky and unhealthy, that's called having basic common sense.

>Some of us are born with it, some have to try and learn it, I suppose!

>The tobacco companies rely on people who don't have common sense, and

>I'm sad to see that that even includes some vegans.

>

>Finally I would contend that smoking is not a vegan behaviour, since

>veganism is about compassion for all sentient creatures, but by

>smoking you are not showing much compassion for yourself.

>

>Lesley

>

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March 16, 2001

It's extremely difficult for me to show compassion and understanding

for smokers, because of what their habit does to their children and

pets. I know what it did to me. My mother knew why I was sick,

because I kept telling her what was making me ill, but she showed me

no compassion, and would not even confine her habit to outdoors. I

still can't breathe properly if I am anywhere near cigarette smoke,

and now I am pregnant, I find that one whiff of smoke if I walk past

someone smoking outdoors in the local park is one of the things that

starts off my nausea and vomiting. They had better beware of me and

my pregnancy sickness.

I'm more sensitive to cigarette smoke than ever now.

If your health had been ruined by a chain-smoking mother, all through

your childhood, and you had suffered chronic catarrh and chest

infections for many years because of your mother's smoking habit, you

might find it hard to have compassion for them too!

One of the best things that smokers can do is get sterilised if they

can't stop, or if they already have kids they should be taken away

and put up for adoption, especially if it is clear that their health

is suffering. I firmly believe that smokers should not be having

children, and they shouldn't be allowed to have indoor animals either.

I'm sure many of your views are rooted in your life experiences, well

so are mine, and I have more compassion for the kids and pets of

smokers than the smokers themselves. Smokers are not innocent

victims, their kids and pets are. I'd rather save my compassion for

those who suffer due to second-hand smoke, which they are powerless

to avoid.

The children of smokers are also more likely than the children of non-

smokers to start smoking themselves.

A smoker who smokes non-vegan cigarettes is certainly less vegan than

an equivalent non-smoker, how can they be equally vegan if they are

consuming such totally unnecessary animal products?

Lesley

> It takes a lot more than basic common sense to keep people away

from

> starting smoking in their youth. Granted anyone who picks up the

habit over

> 20yrs or so should really know better, but there are a hell of a

lot more

> elements involved in starting when you are younger. I certainly

don`t think

> tobacco companies rely on people not having common sense. If it

where, I

> doubt anyone would smoke.

>

> I`m glad thet John and (I hope others) picked up on the point

during the

> flames that being " vegan " is not a defined point, and for this

reason I

> still have compassion and understanding towards people who

unfortunaely got

> caught up in smoking and find it very hard to stop.

>

> I wouldn`t say they are less or more of a vegan than a non smoker.

They are

> on the right path. If you can get people to eat a vegetarian meal

once a

> week, surely that is better than nothing. We all as vegans make

lifestyle

> changes, and we all (hopefully) have a good idea of right/wrong and

where we

> are headed. But we are all a different points along the road. Lets

offer

> encouragement rather than condemnation.

March 16, 2001

Lesley when you first emailed me about The London vegan family get-togethers

I thought that you were very helpful and understanding.

You have always been very helpful but now it seems obvious that if you knew

that I was " less Vegan " than you then maybe I would`nt have recieved any

help from you at all.

I am Vegan but I am also an individual, if someone were to wear wool but as

far as their diet were concerned they were Vegan it does not make them any

less important to the struggle.

Let me ask you this question...when you were pregnant with your children did

you have blood tests?..did you have a completly natural birth with no

intervention?..if you did have blood tests or intervention then I would not

condem you I would not call you less Vegan than me...this is because I try

to understand others it can be hard at times yes, but as my Husband said to

me years ago...Mertle you cannot just condem a whole society of people

...each one is an individual,each case is different...not all meat eaters

evil bastards(which is what I had come to believe)most of them are unaware

of what actually goes on within farming etc and it is us few that should be

informing people not condeming them so if you feel so strongly about smoking

then why not go out and do something about it instead of sitting there on

your arse slagging all vegan smokers off.

mertle

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March 16, 2001

Well what an attitude! What flew up your pants and bit you on the ass?

I have unfortunately been unable to have completely natural births,

but that is a whole different issue from smoking.

No-one is 100% vegan, but some un-vegan things are clearly totally

unnecessary and more easily avoidable than others.

I am certainly refusing the rubella antibody test, as I have become

more aware of the way this is carried out.

I think I do try to be helpful, because I look things up and try to

educate vegan smokers on the vegan-related facts, but it's up to them

to stop. I can't give them the will or determination, that has to

come from them, so I don't see what you expect me to do.

I know that Matt, for instance, was quite happy that I posted stuff

from the web about the unvegan ingredients in cigarettes, he thought

that knowing the facts would likely be of help in encouraging him to

try harder on giving up, so what is your problem?

I won't apologise for my views, because they are just that, my views.

I also won't apologise for being angry with my mother for hurting me

with this foul habit, because I feel well justified.

You have obviously decided you don't like me, well that's your

problem not mine. I'm a blunt person, and I speak my mind. I won't

lie and pretend something is OK if it's not, the way most people will.

Lesley

> Lesley when you first emailed me about The London vegan family get-

togethers

> I thought that you were very helpful and understanding.

> You have always been very helpful but now it seems obvious that if

you knew

> that I was " less Vegan " than you then maybe I would`nt have

recieved any

> help from you at all.

> I am Vegan but I am also an individual, if someone were to wear

wool but as

> far as their diet were concerned they were Vegan it does not make

them any

> less important to the struggle.

> Let me ask you this question...when you were pregnant with your

children did

> you have blood tests?..did you have a completly natural birth with

no

> intervention?..if you did have blood tests or intervention then I

would not

> condem you I would not call you less Vegan than me...this is

because I try

> to understand others it can be hard at times yes, but as my Husband

said to

> me years ago...Mertle you cannot just condem a whole society of

people

> ..each one is an individual,each case is different...not all meat

eaters

> evil bastards(which is what I had come to believe)most of them are

unaware

> of what actually goes on within farming etc and it is us few that

should be

> informing people not condeming them so if you feel so strongly

about smoking

> then why not go out and do something about it instead of sitting

there on

> your arse slagging all vegan smokers off.

>

> mertle

March 16, 2001

Mertle blu, tell me this, would you condemn a victim of a paedophile

for hating paedophiles and being angry?

I'll bet not.

I was the victim of another form of child abuse, my health was harmed

by a chain-smoker, so effectively my feelings against smokers are

something to do with that, and I feel as justified as any other

abused child for my anger and outrage.

Lesley

March 16, 2001

Your attitude to others is clearly arrogant, not only with me but also with

Mr Big you have proved to be aggressive.

I was not rude or viciouse in my email to you I was just stating my views as

you did yours.

>Mertle blu, tell me this, would you condemn a victim of a paedophile

>for hating paedophiles and being angry?

>I'll bet not.

>I was the victim of another form of child abuse, my health was harmed

>by a chain-smoker, so effectively my feelings against smokers are

something to do with that, and I feel as justified as any other

>abused child for my anger and outrage.

My mum and Dad smoked all through my childhood also but I dont hate them for

this, I asked them to stop but they did not and still I did`nt feel malice

towards them..they are my parent and they brought me up the best they knew

how. Does this make me a better person than you?

I do`nt actually hate anyone..no not even paediophiles, I think that some

people are in need of help and have to be cared for and shown the right way

but I dont believe that shouting at people and attacking them with abuse

will solve anything,thease people will not listen they will loath.

You say in your other email that:

" No-one is 100% vegan, but some un-vegan things are clearly totally

unnecessary and more easily avoidable than others "

Avoidable and unnecessary...As you said, you have unfortunately been unable

to have completely natural births well pregnancy IS avoidable and it is`nt

necessary for everyone to have children to keep the human race going so why

not avoid it?...just think you would`nt have to go through the pain of

knowing that you have just had to rely on something that has been tested on

or uses any animal derived substance.

mertle

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March 16, 2001

one should be able to disagree with someone,without being questioned about

whether the help would have been given if undisclosed fact had been

previously known.I have always found Lesley to be helpful and

knowledgable,even tho' she may not agree with my views about my handicapped

child.Her forthright views come from her difficulties with her Mother's

smoking.I'm also very anti smoking because I hate the Drug Pushing cigarette

companies who damaged my fathers lungs and caused his death 3 weeks ago.I

wish all vegans could stop smoking after all we are good at boycotts aren't

we !!The less money for the drug pushers the better.Most vegans have strong

views because we are extremists.We don't do half the job, we take it to its

final conclusion even if it makes us seem odd/different/antisocial,and even

if we are ridiculed.But never forget we vegans are on the same side,and we

are much kinder people than animal eaters,so we should support each other

against the common enemy Angie

P.S.I dont think any adult can pretend that they dont know about cruelty in

farming.They know that the animal they are eating has been killed Thats all

they need to know.If they had one ounce of compassion they would'tkeep doing

it.And yet they look at animals in the fields and say aaah! What

hypocrites!!! Only children who are lied to have an excuse.

-

" mertle blu " <mertleblu

<vegan-network >

Friday, March 16, 2001 7:00 PM

Re: Re: smoking

>

> Lesley when you first emailed me about The London vegan family

get-togethers

> I thought that you were very helpful and understanding.

> You have always been very helpful but now it seems obvious that if you

knew

> that I was " less Vegan " than you then maybe I would`nt have recieved any

> help from you at all.

> I am Vegan but I am also an individual, if someone were to wear wool but

as

> far as their diet were concerned they were Vegan it does not make them any

> less important to the struggle.

> Let me ask you this question...when you were pregnant with your children

did

> you have blood tests?..did you have a completly natural birth with no

> intervention?..if you did have blood tests or intervention then I would

not

> condem you I would not call you less Vegan than me...this is because I try

> to understand others it can be hard at times yes, but as my Husband said

to

> me years ago...Mertle you cannot just condem a whole society of people

> ..each one is an individual,each case is different...not all meat eaters

> evil bastards(which is what I had come to believe)most of them are unaware

> of what actually goes on within farming etc and it is us few that should

be

> informing people not condeming them so if you feel so strongly about

smoking

> then why not go out and do something about it instead of sitting there on

> your arse slagging all vegan smokers off.

>

> mertle

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

March 17, 2001

Dear Angie,

I'm inclined to disagree with one or two points

>Most vegans have strong> views because we are extremists.We don't do half the job, we take it to its> final conclusion even if it makes us seem odd/different/antisocial,and even> if we are ridiculed.

Being extremist often isn't the answer, I've found many people are put off by extreme views and push vegetarianism/veganism aside as something for strange people. I don't think it is for strange people. I'm a teacher, I wear a tie (polyester) and have short hair, I'm proud to be vegan and enjoy it when people listen to my rational explanations on veg.

But never forget we vegans are on the same side,and we> are much kinder people than animal eaters,so we should support each other> against the common enemy

I don't like the way you call my family and friends enemy, it's not entirely their fault if they haven't realised what they are doing.

> P.S.I dont think any adult can pretend that they dont know about cruelty in> farming.They know that the animal they are eating has been killed Thats all> they need to know.If they had one ounce of compassion they would'tkeep doing> it.And yet they look at animals in the fields and say aaah! What> hypocrites!!! Only children who are lied to have an excuse.Many people don't realise there is quite so much cruelty in animal farming. We are all brought up to believe that we deserve animals on our plates and we are superior (think of Tarzan, Old MacDonald, etc.). A lot of people don't question anything in our society and being angry and accusing them of having no compassion is too easy.

Regards

Tom

March 17, 2001

We shall have to agree to differ.By" extremists"I dont mean in all things ,I dont mean we look different necessarily.I look like an average middle aged woman(science teacher] but many people go with the flow and accept things or cant be bothered yo make a stand against it.Of course some animal eaters will have strong views but many vegans do on different issues [Feminism/ abortion/death penalty /drug use / marriage/wearing wedding rings/euthanasia. We seem to take views on one end of the debate.other pople I know arent bothered Thats what I meant.I think thats why vegans sometimes argue and fall out with each other .which we need to guard against.

I still regard animal eaters as the common enemy we are fighting in our efforts to reduce animal suffering.If they didn't demand Meat , farming would b a fruit/veg business.My own parents ate animals.They knew the animals didn't lie down and die but still chose to eat them.they didn't care enough to be inconvenienced.;and veggie diets are an inconvenience especially at the start if one knows no other Veggie from whom to get support .

I became vegan because I didnt want animals to lose their life for me.I didnt know about factory farming Nowadays it is often on the T.V.I think people are aware but are not honest enough to admit that they cant be bothered or that they have other priorities.I admit that I don't get involved in fair trade issues---other priorities--but I think I should.Awareness has only come recently thanks to those who fight for Fair Trade ideals.People are often slow to learn about vivisection and products to be avoided.that comes from building contacts/joining anti vivisection socs etc but eating animals is obvious.they are killed .A person is either bothered or he/she is not or they can push it to the back of their mind.Those who are bothered will have to stop eating them in order to be at peace with their conscience .the pupils that I talk to are happy to admit that they dont care and I respect them for their honesty but not for the way they laugh at those who want to be veggies Why doesn't it surprise me that those who dont care should make fun of those that do!!!!

-

Thomas and Joana Fisher

vegan-network

Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:39 AM

Re: Re: smoking

Dear Angie,

I'm inclined to disagree with one or two points

>Most vegans have strong> views because we are extremists.We don't do half the job, we take it to its> final conclusion even if it makes us seem odd/different/antisocial,and even> if we are ridiculed.

Being extremist often isn't the answer, I've found many people are put off by extreme views and push vegetarianism/veganism aside as something for strange people. I don't think it is for strange people. I'm a teacher, I wear a tie (polyester) and have short hair, I'm proud to be vegan and enjoy it when people listen to my rational explanations on veg.

But never forget we vegans are on the same side,and we> are much kinder people than animal eaters,so we should support each other> against the common enemy

I don't like the way you call my family and friends enemy, it's not entirely their fault if they haven't realised what they are doing.

> P.S.I dont think any adult can pretend that they dont know about cruelty in> farming.They know that the animal they are eating has been killed Thats all> they need to know.If they had one ounce of compassion they would'tkeep doing> it.And yet they look at animals in the fields and say aaah! What> hypocrites!!! Only children who are lied to have an excuse.Many people don't realise there is quite so much cruelty in animal farming. We are all brought up to believe that we deserve animals on our plates and we are superior (think of Tarzan, Old MacDonald, etc.). A lot of people don't question anything in our society and being angry and accusing them of having no compassion is too easy.

Regards

Tom

March 17, 2001

I agree with Toms point completely. Most people do not question the norm.

Even when I think back to school, most people accepted what they were told.

The old " we are omnivores " is still buried in peoples conciousness. I don`t

think people are really that aware of the suffering involved in the animal

industry either. We all have an inherent self defense mechanism, that makes

us justify our way of lifestyle and shut out the " not nice stuff " .

When I have told people I am vegan, many have seemed surprized, and I have

often had negative reactions (especially from yanks). I too used to be

extremely opinionated and self righteous about my lifestyle. I used to say

all meat eaters are either ignorant or vindictive. I still hold to this, but

I think most of them are ignorant. And the last thing that will change their

minds is a barage of condescending bullshit about how evil and wrong they

are.

I could say I have converted people too. But I`d rather not try to claim the

glory for it. Most people I know did not do it overnight. It was the result

of an often long process of realization. I was happy to add to their

curiosity without condeming them. I know people who never gave a shit, and

then after some hysteria or whim, converted to a veggie diet only to relapse

sometime in the future.

I suggest also that Leslie picks up any rudimentry sociology book and reads

up on the difference between a " common sense " view of the world, and a

" sociologists " view of the world. It`s pretty basic stuff, but I think you

could learn a lot from it.

MrBiG

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March 17, 2001

If you are going to persist in misspelling my name, even though Angie

has once already corrected you, then I shall henceforth address you

as MrBoG or MrBuG ~

If sociologists are going to simply make a heap of EXCUSES for people

who take up damaging habits which they know quite well are hurting

themselves and those around them, then guess what, I am not

interested in their politically correct psychobabble. I can easily

guess at one of the excuses for starting smoking, peer pressure for

instance. Well, I had no problem resisting that, and stating my point

of view that it was unhealthy and disgusting, and I can't say it made

me popular, but guess what, I soon decided I didn't care, because who

wants to be popular with such deliberately stupid people who just

follow the crowd without thinking, anyway? It seems to me that you

are promoting yet another bit of politically correct thinking which

so often seems to say that the perpetrators are really somehow

victims, and claims to attempt to " understand " them, but I don't buy

it. People have to take a certain amount of responsibility for their

own behaviour, and exercise a bit of self-control. Sociology, no

doubt, tells them they are not truly responsible for their antisocial

and harmful habits, but it is only by accepting a large chunk of the

responsibility that many people can ever find the will to stop!

Coddling smokers with sociology-based excuses is what keeps them weak

and dependent on their drug, but encouraging them to accept

responsibility and understand that regardless of the (now largely

irrelevant) pressures that caused them to take it up, they can now

take control of their present situation and stop.

Besides there is plenty of support for quitting available.

I offered to investigate the veganness (or not) of nicotine patches

and other stop-smoking aids, for the Vegan Society. I was very keen a

few months back to investigate and write an article for The Vegan to

help vegan smokers, because I am concerned about them, so Mertle

Blu's accusations that I don't care about helping are a bit rich. The

Vegan Society were not very interested, they thought that such an

article would be of limited interest, so I didn't follow it up.

If time permits, I still might do some investigations and report back.

What I also find most interesting and puzzling is the way that some

of the same vegans around here who preach that we should be oh-so-

nice to meat-eaters (and in this case smokers) are often the ones who

are the least tolerant and least compassionate in their attitudes to

those other VEGANS who don't share their point of view!

Very strange.

Lesley

> I suggest also that Leslie picks up any rudimentry sociology book

and reads

> up on the difference between a " common sense " view of the world,

and a

> " sociologists " view of the world. It`s pretty basic stuff, but I

think you

> could learn a lot from it.

>

> MrBiG

March 17, 2001

well said dropscone - hear, hear!

By the way, any wonderful gay blokes out there? who also happen to be vegan?

Drop me a line!

Mark

X

March 17, 2001

Leslie-=boy

Lesley=girl

I think it is disrespectful to spell a name incorrectly

-

" mr big " <pervyempire

<vegan-network >

Saturday, March 17, 2001 10:45 AM

Re: Re: smoking

> I agree with Toms point completely. Most people do not question the norm.

> Even when I think back to school, most people accepted what they were

told.

> The old " we are omnivores " is still buried in peoples conciousness. I

don`t

> think people are really that aware of the suffering involved in the animal

> industry either. We all have an inherent self defense mechanism, that

makes

> us justify our way of lifestyle and shut out the " not nice stuff " .

>

> When I have told people I am vegan, many have seemed surprized, and I have

> often had negative reactions (especially from yanks). I too used to be

> extremely opinionated and self righteous about my lifestyle. I used to say

> all meat eaters are either ignorant or vindictive. I still hold to this,

but

> I think most of them are ignorant. And the last thing that will change

their

> minds is a barage of condescending bullshit about how evil and wrong they

> are.

>

> I could say I have converted people too. But I`d rather not try to claim

the

> glory for it. Most people I know did not do it overnight. It was the

result

> of an often long process of realization. I was happy to add to their

> curiosity without condeming them. I know people who never gave a shit, and

> then after some hysteria or whim, converted to a veggie diet only to

relapse

> sometime in the future.

>

> I suggest also that Leslie picks up any rudimentry sociology book and

reads

> up on the difference between a " common sense " view of the world, and a

> " sociologists " view of the world. It`s pretty basic stuff, but I think you

> could learn a lot from it.

>

> MrBiG

>

> _______________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

March 17, 2001

Well said Lesley You can certainly stand up for yourself and I love reading

your comments

As I keep saying we should try not to criticise each other too harshly.We

need to support each other against the enemy .[The enemy being a general

term for those who cause animal suffering ,and who, we therefore have to

" convert " or stop for the animals sake --This is for those upset by the word

enemy ,who feel the need to defend them ] Angie

-

" Lesley Dove " <100706.3632

<vegan-network >

Saturday, March 17, 2001 12:00 PM

Re: smoking

>

> If you are going to persist in misspelling my name, even though Angie

> has once already corrected you, then I shall henceforth address you

> as MrBoG or MrBuG ~

>

> If sociologists are going to simply make a heap of EXCUSES for people

> who take up damaging habits which they know quite well are hurting

> themselves and those around them, then guess what, I am not

> interested in their politically correct psychobabble. I can easily

> guess at one of the excuses for starting smoking, peer pressure for

> instance. Well, I had no problem resisting that, and stating my point

> of view that it was unhealthy and disgusting, and I can't say it made

> me popular, but guess what, I soon decided I didn't care, because who

> wants to be popular with such deliberately stupid people who just

> follow the crowd without thinking, anyway? It seems to me that you

> are promoting yet another bit of politically correct thinking which

> so often seems to say that the perpetrators are really somehow

> victims, and claims to attempt to " understand " them, but I don't buy

> it. People have to take a certain amount of responsibility for their

> own behaviour, and exercise a bit of self-control. Sociology, no

> doubt, tells them they are not truly responsible for their antisocial

> and harmful habits, but it is only by accepting a large chunk of the

> responsibility that many people can ever find the will to stop!

> Coddling smokers with sociology-based excuses is what keeps them weak

> and dependent on their drug, but encouraging them to accept

> responsibility and understand that regardless of the (now largely

> irrelevant) pressures that caused them to take it up, they can now

> take control of their present situation and stop.

> Besides there is plenty of support for quitting available.

> I offered to investigate the veganness (or not) of nicotine patches

> and other stop-smoking aids, for the Vegan Society. I was very keen a

> few months back to investigate and write an article for The Vegan to

> help vegan smokers, because I am concerned about them, so Mertle

> Blu's accusations that I don't care about helping are a bit rich. The

> Vegan Society were not very interested, they thought that such an

> article would be of limited interest, so I didn't follow it up.

> If time permits, I still might do some investigations and report back.

>

> What I also find most interesting and puzzling is the way that some

> of the same vegans around here who preach that we should be oh-so-

> nice to meat-eaters (and in this case smokers) are often the ones who

> are the least tolerant and least compassionate in their attitudes to

> those other VEGANS who don't share their point of view!

> Very strange.

>

> Lesley

>

> > I suggest also that Leslie picks up any rudimentry sociology book

> and reads

> > up on the difference between a " common sense " view of the world,

> and a

> > " sociologists " view of the world. It`s pretty basic stuff, but I

> think you

> > could learn a lot from it.

> >

> > MrBiG

>

March 17, 2001

So now I've had to correct Mr BiG TWICE !!!Perhaps he has a problem

reading? or

writing? or spelling? or understanding? --Or perhaps he's a sociologist!!

Only joking!!!