AR topic

[Guest guest]

Yes, a mix of topics was what I had in mind. "Events to help animals" being one of various topics.

 

A couple of people have recently spoke up saying if the list becomes an AR one they'd leave. I wonder if they will leave even if we are talking about what events are going on and what we're doing for the animals ASWELL as talking about other topics such as products, recipes, other life style topics and general chat? Can I ask those who objected about AR, is it that you have a dislike of it becoming AR ONLY, or would you object even if AR is touched on amongst other topics?

 

Jak

 

-

laurakatemoore

Wednesday, October 22, 2003 5:29 PM

Re: Ideas

I am still going to attempt to do all this but it may take some time. The way things tend to be for me is i work flat out for a few days without even checking my email, then i get one the net for a good few hours and do lots of stuff. Now i've left my (except this one) i might have a bit more time to do this.Plus its half term next week! Yay!But, as Michael says this is a vegan group not an AR one so will try to keep a mix of stuff.Laura x , "Jak" <jak.remec@n...> wrote:> > >I was thinking - calendar with events like demos, nat vegan day etc, info> on letter >writing, veganism in the news, get togethers, ideas for activism> etc. What do you think? >Speak up people!> > this sounds great to me, just the sort of group I'm looking for in fact! But> I have noted what Michael said, and realise this might not be what others on> the list want the group to be used for. Maybe other people could speak up> with their opinion on this?> > I've been searching for a group at that focuses on animal> activism in the uk but can't find any with a decent amount of people (low> numbers usually means no posts, not always, but usually). The main reason I> recently joined this list and vegans uncensored is to get talking about> doing stuff for the animals (basically what you describe above). Hopefully> this list will decide to embrace these as topics for this list.> > Jak~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

if you want to talk about AR ... it would be nice if you could take it to the appropriate forum ... rather than use this one out of convenience.

 

 

 

Jak [jak.remec]

Yes, a mix of topics was what I had in mind. "Events to help animals" being one of various topics.

 

A couple of people have recently spoke up saying if the list becomes an AR one they'd leave. I wonder if they will leave even if we are talking about what events are going on and what we're doing for the animals ASWELL as talking about other topics such as products, recipes, other life style topics and general chat? Can I ask those who objected about AR, is it that you have a dislike of it becoming AR ONLY, or would you object even if AR is touched on amongst other topics?

 

Jak

 

**

[Guest guest]

Hi Lesley,

 

>In fact I am quite dismayed to hear that some vegans seem so antipathetic

to AR that >they would leave the list over the issue, why can't they be more

tolerant of other vegans >on this? They don't have to take part in the

particular discussions that don't interest them >after all! We all choose

the discussions we decide to involve ourselves in and I would >think a good

balance could be achieved between AR, food issues, health, philosophical

>issues, and general chat.

 

I completely agree with you on this. In fact I'm very relieved you have

spoken up. I hope other people who are vegan for compassionate reasons will

speak up on this too to put a stop to this idea that no AR issues/events can

be discussed in this group, or I will end up leaving because I couldn't

stand being around such selfish people who (even 'though may say they are

vegan for compassionate reasons) actually don't care about animals enough to

speak up for them.

 

Thanks Lesley for speaking up.

 

Jak

[Guest guest]

I'm not currently active in AR much at all due to family commitments while my kids are young but I am very pro-AR in spirit, I went vegan for AR reasons, I still basically believe in all the reasons I went vegan in the first place and want to return to being more active for the animals when my children are older and so I have no problem at all with anti-vivisection and other AR issues being discussed here, even if I don't know enough about recent developments in the movement to get involved myself. In fact I am quite dismayed to hear that some vegans seem so antipathetic to AR that they would leave the list over the issue, why can't they be more tolerant of other vegans on this? They don't have to take part in the particular discussions that don't interest them after all! We all choose the discussions we decide to involve ourselves in and I would think a good balance could be achieved between AR, food issues, health, philosophical issues, and general chat.

 

Lesley

 

 

Jak [jak.remec]22 October 2003 19:11 Subject: AR topic

Yes, a mix of topics was what I had in mind. "Events to help animals" being one of various topics.

 

A couple of people have recently spoke up saying if the list becomes an AR one they'd leave. I wonder if they will leave even if we are talking about what events are going on and what we're doing for the animals ASWELL as talking about other topics such as products, recipes, other life style topics and general chat? Can I ask those who objected about AR, is it that you have a dislike of it becoming AR ONLY, or would you object even if AR is touched on amongst other topics?

 

Jak

 

-

laurakatemoore

Wednesday, October 22, 2003 5:29 PM

Re: Ideas

I am still going to attempt to do all this but it may take some time. The way things tend to be for me is i work flat out for a few days without even checking my email, then i get one the net for a good few hours and do lots of stuff. Now i've left my (except this one) i might have a bit more time to do this.Plus its half term next week! Yay!But, as Michael says this is a vegan group not an AR one so will try to keep a mix of stuff.Laura x , "Jak" <jak.remec@n...> wrote:> > >I was thinking - calendar with events like demos, nat vegan day etc, info> on letter >writing, veganism in the news, get togethers, ideas for activism> etc. What do you think? >Speak up people!> > this sounds great to me, just the sort of group I'm looking for in fact! But> I have noted what Michael said, and realise this might not be what others on> the list want the group to be used for. Maybe other people could speak up> with their opinion on this?> > I've been searching for a group at that focuses on animal> activism in the uk but can't find any with a decent amount of people (low> numbers usually means no posts, not always, but usually). The main reason I> recently joined this list and vegans uncensored is to get talking about> doing stuff for the animals (basically what you describe above). Hopefully> this list will decide to embrace these as topics for this list.> > Jak~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

 

>To me it's a balance thing, if this feels more of an AR list than a vegan

>one, then I'm not getting what I want from it. Other people can disagree,

>but there must be *ton's* of AR lists out in internetland.

 

I agree, balance is certainly the important thing. Equally, if this list

becomes bombarded with recipes then I'm not getting what I want from it.

There must be vegan receipe groups out there, in fact there are, I already

checked. So a balance of all topics is what we should seek, not get

hypersensitive over just one. Goodness knows why we should end up feeling

ashamed to speak about animal rights on a vegan list. It just doesn't stop

for the animals does it?!

 

Jak

[Guest guest]

I think that is a little harsh on those people who are vegan for compassionate reasons ...

 

The mere fact that people have given up all animal products is a large move towards the welfare of animals. For some people who cannot give up the time this is a fair enough step.

 

If you have more time to involve yourself in AR that is fine too. If you wish to discuss AR then that is not Veganism. And this is a list predominantly for Vegans and not AR.

 

I do not think I could stand to be around people who think that people with very little spare time on their hands are selfish. When their prime reason for becoming vegan is one of compassion. This shows very little compassion for those people.

 

You show little understanding of the many and various reasons why those people, who 'say they give up for compassionate reasons', do not appear to you to be doing anything up to your moral standard .... and lump them all under the umbrella of being 'selfish'. It's a cheap call.

 

 

 

 

Jak [jak.remec] I completely agree with you on this. In fact I'm very relieved you havespoken up. I hope other people who are vegan for compassionate reasons willspeak up on this too to put a stop to this idea that no AR issues/events canbe discussed in this group, or I will end up leaving because I couldn'tstand being around such selfish people who (even 'though may say they arevegan for compassionate reasons) actually don't care about animals enough tospeak up for them.Thanks Lesley for speaking up.Jak

 

**

[Guest guest]

Jak :

> A couple of people have recently spoke up saying if the list becomes an AR

> one they'd leave. I wonder if they will leave even if we are talking about

> what events are going on and what we're doing for the animals ASWELL as

> talking about other topics such as products, recipes, other life style

> topics and general chat? Can I ask those who objected about AR, is it that

> you have a dislike of it becoming AR ONLY, or would you object even if AR

> is touched on amongst other topics?

 

If the main topics being discussed are people plugging AR marches / demos /

and then discussing them afterwards, then I think it's not , and

isn't where I want to be.

 

If people hear *directly* about something (through flyers, individuals,

magazines etc) then it seems reasonable to consider plugging it here and

letting people decide whether they want to be involved.

 

However, if people simply forward announcements of marches / demos /

whatever *from other lists*, then (to me) they're abusing this list, and

should instead be informing people of the other list, where they can

(presumably) discuss those issues as much as they like... If people think

that other lists have AR content that would interest people here, then that

list is where it should be being discussed, otherwise lists die while other

lists that aren't intended for that topic get swamped with it.

 

To me it's a balance thing, if this feels more of an AR list than a vegan

one, then I'm not getting what I want from it. Other people can disagree,

but there must be *ton's* of AR lists out in internetland.

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Oliver,

 

I was talking about the people who seem offended about AR issues/events being against them being talked about on this list by anyone at all. There are probably many vegans here who don't have time right now to become involved with AR activities (Lesley is one such person) who don't object to other people discussing it here. What I don't think is fair is people who dictate that we mustn't talk about these issues at all on this list. And as for having enough time, I am also very busy, but want to adjust my routine to allow one or two letters a week and attending vegan/animal rights events every so often. My point wasn't directed at the people who don't have the time, but to the people who object to others talking about ar activities/ events on this list at all. If those people say they are vegan for compassionate reasons, it would seem strange to not allow others to talk about AR topics just because they don't have the time (or don't make the time) right now to do this themselves.

 

It appears that you only email when you have something to complain/disagree or challenge someone about. I wrote a mail a few days back on the topic of why we went vegan. You picked up on me using the word disgusting to describe the idea of myself, as an adult, drinking human breast milk (when explaining how I began to see the idea of having cows milk as disgusting as drinking breast milk, in turn to explain the changes that brought about me going vegan). Of course, I meant disgusting in the sense that for me (as an adult) the idea about drinking breast milk is not something that gets the taste buds racing. But you seemed to want to interpret it as me condemning breast milk altogether.

 

However, you could have chosen to write why you yourself became a vegan rather than nit picking my post for something to criticise. Again you do this in this post, and it's funny that you go on about compassion but hold little for me while you give your hurtful opinion of me that is completely ungrounded. You completely misunderstood me. As you can see from what I've said above, I myself am very busy and I do understand why other vegans don't have time to do AR stuff, in fact I've been such a vegan for years. What I don't like, for the third time just in case you haven't heard me (so that more misunderstandings don't develop) is the people who are saying we mustn't talk about events/issues to help the animals on this list.

 

It would be nice to see you speaking about similarities we have as vegans in a post, rather than picking up on differences and things you disagree with/don't like.

 

Jak- Oliver Slay Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:04 PMRE: AR topicI think that is a little harsh on those people who are vegan for compassionate reasons ...The mere fact that people have given up all animal products is a large move towards the welfare of animals. For some people who cannot give up the time this is a fair enough step.If you have more time to involve yourself in AR that is fine too. If you wish to discuss AR then that is not Veganism. And this is a list predominantly for Vegans and not AR.I do not think I could stand to be around people who think that people with very little spare time on their hands are selfish. When their prime reason for becoming vegan is one of compassion. This shows very little compassion for those people.You show little understanding of the many and various reasons why those people, who 'say they give up for compassionate reasons', do not appear to you to be doing anything up to your moral standard .... and lump them all under the umbrella of being 'selfish'. It's a cheap call.Jak [jak.remec] I completely agree with you on this. In fact I'm very relieved you havespoken up. I hope other people who are vegan for compassionate reasons willspeak up on this too to put a stop to this idea that no AR issues/events canbe discussed in this group, or I will end up leaving because I couldn'tstand being around such selfish people who (even 'though may say they arevegan for compassionate reasons) actually don't care about animals enough tospeak up for them.Thanks Lesley for speaking up.Jak**

[Guest guest]

Okay.

 

I think now we can all seen why I originally felt the need to make the

comment regarding this being a vegan list and not an AR one? It's

quickly turning into an 'us' against 'them' and people's motives are

being questioned.

 

What if a group of people wanted to talk about a particular religion on

here and others were not interested because it is off topic? I'm sure

those who would want to do such a thing could make good arguments as to

how it is intrinsically linked with veganism, to them. Accusing people

of intolerance or selfishness doesn't really help anyone but inflame

the situation.

 

It is nothing to do with me anymore but I still have an opinion as

someone who is a list member, and I think it was well summed up by

Oliver " if you want to talk about AR ... it would be nice if you could

take it to the appropriate forum ...  rather than use this one out of

convenience. " I would have used less dots though.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

I couldn't agree more with you, Michael. Like Oliver said, there are

AR forums for those who want to join.

 

It is all about balanc, a bit of everything - receipes, products,

health, prejudice and so on. I think it is OK to mention other AR

lists and forums but not to forward their posts here. After all, the

labels " veganism " and " AR " aren't 100% interchangable - but this

isn't a " Bad Thing " .

 

Siofra

 

, mavreela <ndisc@m...> wrote:

> Okay.

>

> I think now we can all seen why I originally felt the need to make

the

> comment regarding this being a vegan list and not an AR one? It's

> quickly turning into an 'us' against 'them' and people's motives

are

> being questioned.

>

> What if a group of people wanted to talk about a particular

religion on

> here and others were not interested because it is off topic? I'm

sure

> those who would want to do such a thing could make good arguments

as to

> how it is intrinsically linked with veganism, to them. Accusing

people

> of intolerance or selfishness doesn't really help anyone but

inflame

> the situation.

>

> It is nothing to do with me anymore but I still have an opinion as

> someone who is a list member, and I think it was well summed up by

> Oliver " if you want to talk about AR ... it would be nice if you

could

> take it to the appropriate forum ...  rather than use this one out

of

> convenience. " I would have used less dots though.

>

> Michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Jak

 

I think the mere fact that we have a divide over AR and Vegan issues is good enough reason to use this as a forum for veganism and elsewhere more suitable for AR. It is veganism that unites people on this board and not AR. If you are seeking similarities....

 

Yes it is true ... I often disagree with things. I find it opens topics up. Agreement can often just kill topics of discussion. I have no opinion of you - in fact I forget most things i write as soon as i have sent it ... i write on the spur and off the top of my head... if something doesn't make sense then I will pick up on it ... and ask the other to clarify ... perhaps my method is a little harsh for you...? but it's got you to explain yourself a little further... :-)

 

i'm not interested in why i became a vegan ... it was a long long time ago and most likely it was for the same reasons as everyone else... except for those people allergic to foodstuffs etc... but i will read people's posts about it ...

 

i do not hold a hurtful opinion of you... i hold no opinion of you. Unless our whole being is defined by the few words we write on a page... with our truths and misgivings all mixed up together... how can I know anyone in this forum enough to hold a valid opinion?

 

so :

i am nitpicking and all the other stuff you have nit picked... ?

you are criticising me for all my criticism ...

i understand what you write but i misunderstand you - while you misunderstand me but not what i write

 

this sounds like most conflict ... meaningless...

 

ah yes... the above are our similarities btw... :-)

 

 

 

Jak [jak.remec]

 

Hi Oliver,

 

I was talking about the people who seem offended about AR issues/events being against them being talked about on this list by anyone at all. There are probably many vegans here who don't have time right now to become involved with AR activities (Lesley is one such person) who don't object to other people discussing it here. What I don't think is fair is people who dictate that we mustn't talk about these issues at all on this list. And as for having enough time, I am also very busy, but want to adjust my routine to allow one or two letters a week and attending vegan/animal rights events every so often. My point wasn't directed at the people who don't have the time, but to the people who object to others talking about ar activities/ events on this list at all. If those people say they are vegan for compassionate reasons, it would seem strange to not allow others to talk about AR topics just because they don't have the time (or don't make the time) right now to do this themselves.

 

It appears that you only email when you have something to complain/disagree or challenge someone about. I wrote a mail a few days back on the topic of why we went vegan. You picked up on me using the word disgusting to describe the idea of myself, as an adult, drinking human breast milk (when explaining how I began to see the idea of having cows milk as disgusting as drinking breast milk, in turn to explain the changes that brought about me going vegan). Of course, I meant disgusting in the sense that for me (as an adult) the idea about drinking breast milk is not something that gets the taste buds racing. But you seemed to want to interpret it as me condemning breast milk altogether.

 

However, you could have chosen to write why you yourself became a vegan rather than nit picking my post for something to criticise. Again you do this in this post, and it's funny that you go on about compassion but hold little for me while you give your hurtful opinion of me that is completely ungrounded. You completely misunderstood me. As you can see from what I've said above, I myself am very busy and I do understand why other vegans don't have time to do AR stuff, in fact I've been such a vegan for years. What I don't like, for the third time just in case you haven't heard me (so that more misunderstandings don't develop) is the people who are saying we mustn't talk about events/issues to help the animals on this list.

 

It would be nice to see you speaking about similarities we have as vegans in a post, rather than picking up on differences and things you disagree with/don't like.

 

Jak- Oliver Slay Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:04 PMRE: AR topicI think that is a little harsh on those people who are vegan for compassionate reasons ...The mere fact that people have given up all animal products is a large move towards the welfare of animals. For some people who cannot give up the time this is a fair enough step.If you have more time to involve yourself in AR that is fine too. If you wish to discuss AR then that is not Veganism. And this is a list predominantly for Vegans and not AR.I do not think I could stand to be around people who think that people with very little spare time on their hands are selfish. When their prime reason for becoming vegan is one of compassion. This shows very little compassion for those people.You show little understanding of the many and various reasons why those people, who 'say they give up for compassionate reasons', do not appear to you to be doing anything up to your moral standard .... and lump them all under the umbrella of being 'selfish'. It's a cheap call.Jak [jak.remec] I completely agree with you on this. In fact I'm very relieved you havespoken up. I hope other people who are vegan for compassionate reasons willspeak up on this too to put a stop to this idea that no AR issues/events canbe discussed in this group, or I will end up leaving because I couldn'tstand being around such selfish people who (even 'though may say they arevegan for compassionate reasons) actually don't care about animals enough tospeak up for them.Thanks Lesley for speaking up.Jak**

[Guest guest]

>I think now we can all seen why I originally felt the need to make the >comment regarding this being a vegan list and not an AR one? It's >quickly turning into an 'us' against 'them' and people's motives are >being questioned.

That's the sort of dynamics that occur when freedom of speech is disallowed. It's nothing to do with the specifics, but rather that some want to prevent others from speaking about something that for them is intrinsically part of their vegan lifestyle.

 

It's not like we want this list to become an AR list, just to include AR topics as well as many other topics. I'm sure many here became vegan because they care about animal welfare, and therefore it's that care about animal welfare that a lot of us have in common. Many vegans' concerns and interests aren't just about sharing recipe and product information and general chit-chat

>What if a group of people wanted to talk about a particular religion on >here and others were not interested because it is off topic? I'm sure >those who would want to do such a thing could make good arguments as to >how it is intrinsically linked with veganism, to them.

 

This is not a comparison of equivalent status with animal rights. Far more people go vegan for the animals than they do for religious reasons. IMO, if someone wanted to talk about how their religious belief brought them to veganism I'd be interested. It's when someone tries to impinge their beliefs on others that's the problem. If there are vegans here who want to discuss animal welfare here with each other, (they're not forcing those who don't want to talk about to get involved) they should be free to do so. As Simon pointed out "AR and Veganism would be too interlinked for there to be a need for a totally separate group", because many of us became vegan for the animals. Animal welfare is part of who many of us are as vegans, why should we feel we can't talk about something so important to the reason we became vegans in the first place?

 

>Accusing people of intolerance or selfishness doesn't really help anyone but inflame >the situation.

imo it is selfish to want to tailor a group to what you want to talk about. It's quite obvious that the topic of animal welfare is close to many of our hearts as vegans

>It is nothing to do with me anymore but I still have an opinion as >someone who is a list member, and I think it was well summed up by >Oliver "if you want to talk about AR ... it would be nice if you could >take it to the appropriate forum ... rather than use this one out of >convenience." I would have used less dots though.If the majority who speak up decide they don't want any issues of animal welfare talked about then that's how it will have to be, but I suggest that you (Laura) change the following part of the description on the home page, as it is misleading. " though is somewhere that vegans in the UK....can form an online community. Where they can be themselves and talk about what interests them, whether related to veganism or not, as well as share useful information in a friendly and supportive environment."

 

Jak

[Guest guest]

Message

Hi Oliver,

 

>I think the mere fact that we have a divide over AR and Vegan issues is

good enough >reason to use this as a forum for veganism and elsewhere more

suitable for AR. It is >veganism that unites people on this board and not

AR. If you are seeking similarities....

 

I think many people became vegan for animal rights reasons, that's a

similarity. The divide that is happening involves very few people compared

to how many are actually on the list. And the divide is being caused by some

people not wanting others to talk about something close to their heart as

caring compassionate vegans. I don't understand this, because if some aren't

interested in hearing animal welfare topics, they can just delete them. Same

with if there's an email with a recipe you don't like, or book

recommendation that's not of interest. Just hit the delete button. Why the

need to control what others might want to talk about? If they, as vegans,

feel that discussing animal welfare issues is important to them they should

be allowed to do this in this online vegan community (with the present

description being taken into account).

 

Jak

[Guest guest]

hmmm and I wonder how many of those vegan groups ban animal welfare discussion and how many of the AR groups ban vegan discussion?

 

Jak

 

-

Oliver Slay

Thursday, October 23, 2003 5:59 PM

RE: AR topic

 

There are nearly 700 AR/Welfare groups available .. and nearly 700 vegan groups available on ... and only about 100 interlinked groups ...

 

on Google .. AR/Welfare brings up nearly 2 million hits ... and Vegan(ism) brings up about the same .. (totalled) ... but the number of results is between 2-30,000 when you search on AR and veganism ...

 

that's always a good indication of how linked 2 subjects are ... and how much there is in one subject that is not in the other... it is at least more objective...

 

 

 

Jak [jak.remec] Hi Oliver,I think many people became vegan for animal rights reasons, that's asimilarity. The divide that is happening involves very few people comparedto how many are actually on the list. And the divide is being caused by somepeople not wanting others to talk about something close to their heart ascaring compassionate vegans. I don't understand this, because if some aren'tinterested in hearing animal welfare topics, they can just delete them. Samewith if there's an email with a recipe you don't like, or bookrecommendation that's not of interest. Just hit the delete button. Why theneed to control what others might want to talk about? If they, as vegans,feel that discussing animal welfare issues is important to them they shouldbe allowed to do this in this online vegan community (with the presentdescription being taken into account).**~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to -

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2003 17:14:39 +0100, " Jak " <jak.remec

wrote:

 

>It's not like we want this list to become an AR list, just to include

>AR topics as well as many other topics.

 

I agree with you, Jak. AR should be as valid a topic here as cooking,

health etc. It's one of a range of valid topics for this list, and while

it's best if the list doesn't become dominated by any one sub-topic IMO,

equally nothing should be taboo unless it's in bad moral taste, racist

etc. A healthy balance of discussion topics is good! No-one would

suggest that people should only discuss cooking on specialised cookery

lists, or only discuss health on specialised health lists, so I can't

see that there's a reasonable argument for singling out AR in that way.

 

As long as people make it clear what they're writing about in the

subject header, then those who aren't interested in that particular

topic can easily ignore the thread. It's not like the list is overloaded

with messages is it?!

 

>If the majority who speak up decide they don't want any issues of

>animal welfare talked about then that's how it will have to be, but I

>suggest that you (Laura) change the following part of the description

>on the home page, as it is misleading. "

>though is somewhere that vegans in the UK....can form an online

>community. Where they can be themselves and talk about what interests

>them, whether related to veganism or not, as well as share useful

>information in a friendly and supportive environment. "

 

The curent list charter appears to allow us to talk about anything we

like then! I think thatt charter is a good one, and it shouldn't have

restrictions placed on it which exclude a particular topic. If others

feel differently, I think that any proposed change of charter should be

preceded by a poll in the hope that the silent majority will vote even

if they don't write!

 

Chris W

[Guest guest]

There are nearly 700 AR/Welfare groups available .. and nearly 700 vegan groups available on ... and only about 100 interlinked groups ...

 

on Google .. AR/Welfare brings up nearly 2 million hits ... and Vegan(ism) brings up about the same .. (totalled) ... but the number of results is between 2-30,000 when you search on AR and veganism ...

 

that's always a good indication of how linked 2 subjects are ... and how much there is in one subject that is not in the other... it is at least more objective...

 

 

 

Jak [jak.remec] Hi Oliver,I think many people became vegan for animal rights reasons, that's asimilarity. The divide that is happening involves very few people comparedto how many are actually on the list. And the divide is being caused by somepeople not wanting others to talk about something close to their heart ascaring compassionate vegans. I don't understand this, because if some aren'tinterested in hearing animal welfare topics, they can just delete them. Samewith if there's an email with a recipe you don't like, or bookrecommendation that's not of interest. Just hit the delete button. Why theneed to control what others might want to talk about? If they, as vegans,feel that discussing animal welfare issues is important to them they shouldbe allowed to do this in this online vegan community (with the presentdescription being taken into account).

 

**

[Guest guest]

> This is not a comparison of equivalent status with animal rights.

 

Not to you, no. That's my point. To you. They're your beliefs.

Others may share them, but they aren't everyone's beliefs. The example

I gave may hold similar status to someone else, and that is my point.

You aren't supposed to judge it through your own framework but

empathize with someone else's.

 

> If there are vegans here who want to discuss animal welfare here with

> each other, (they're not forcing those who don't want to talk about to

> get involved) they should be free to do so.

 

Can we be racists too? You don't have to listen. Where is the line

drawn?

 

> Animal welfare is part of who many of us are as vegans, why should we

> feel we can't talk about something so important to the reason we

> became vegans in the first place?

 

Because that isn't true of everyone and will scare off those people.

It then fails to be a supportive environment.

 

> imo it is selfish to want to tailor a group to what you want to talk

> about. It's quite obvious that the topic of animal welfare is close to

> many of our hearts as vegans

 

So does that mean every list has to welcome every topic if a couple of

people on it wish to discuss it? After all the rest can just look

away? I hope you don't mind if we start talking about Star Trek as I'm

sure there must be lots of fans on here and it would be selfish to stop

them.

 

> If the majority who speak up decide they don't want any issues of

> animal welfare talked about then that's how it will have to be, but I

> suggest that you (Laura) change the following part of the description

> on the home page, as it is misleading. "

> though is somewhere that vegans in the UK....can form an online

> community. Where they can be themselves and talk about what interests

> them, whether related to veganism or not, as well as share useful

> information in a friendly and supportive environment. "

 

I wrote that and it was true before this discussion even came up and in

my mind it is till true now. AR was never a banned topic in the way it

is being discussed now. The list rules state that off topic comments

are welcome so long as they do not dominate the list. Regular posting

of AR material would violate that rule, the occasional discussion like

this does not. Of course that's all open to change but please do not

make thinly veiled accusations of hypocrisy against me.

 

I also take offence at your claims of my, and others, attempting to of

deny you freedom of speech. are free and easy to set up,

no one is stopping you starting your own VeganAR group. For all the

freedom you seem to claim is your due to be able to discuss whatever

you like, in doing so you would be ignoring the desires of others and

would be forcing them off of this list. Freedom of speech comes with

trust and an expectation that it be used fairly, it is not something

you can use to push your own agenda in spite of others.

 

It is Laura's call now but you have put me firmly in the anti-AR camp

because of your intransigent position and I too would leave if the list

changes in the direction you desire because I can see that it would be

too single minded and judgmental to be of any interest to me. In my

opinion there is something wrong with a list if half of it members are

not interested in half of its discussions, and if they feel the need to

constantly justify themselves to others. That, of course, is countered

by the fact that half of the list never said anything so who knows what

they thought. And is it better for this to become a smaller but busy

list as opposed to a larger yet quiet one?

 

Michael

(Just waiting for the obligatory mention of Nazi's)

[Guest guest]

Just to add that, of course, there is a difference between discussing

the philosophy of animal rights and/or animal welfare which is clearly

a subject linked to veganism, and of discussing and supporting the

practice of AR (sending letters, going on demos) which is not.

To me is something like the current discussion (how much is AR a part

of veganism) would not be an issue as opposed to planning a march.

 

Michael

(There is a time and place for everything, it doesn't all have to

happen at once)

[Guest guest]

>>This is not a comparison of equivalent status with animal rights.

 

>Not to you, no. That's my point. To you. They're your beliefs. Others may

share them, but they aren't everyone's beliefs. The example I gave may hold

similar status to someone else, and that is my point. >You aren't supposed

to judge it through your own framework but empathize with someone else's.

 

sorry what am I supposed to do? I don't understand this. All I know is that

many vegans are vegan for animal welfare reasons. I can't believe we're even

discussing this! It is very rare I hear of someone being vegan for purely

religious reasons. Your example of religious vegans is not an equivalent

comparison because going vegan for the animals is a far more common reason

than for religious reasons

 

>>If there are vegans here who want to discuss animal welfare here with each

other, (they're not forcing those who don't want to talk about to get

involved) they should be free to do so.

 

>Can we be racists too? You don't have to listen. Where is the line drawn?

 

This is getting ridiculous. What are you talking about?! This is getting

very petty. It's clear that animal welfare will be a topic close to many

vegans hearts.

 

>>Animal welfare is part of who many of us are as vegans, why should we feel

we can't talk about something so important to the reason we became vegans in

the first place?

 

>Because that isn't true of everyone and will scare off those people. It

then fails to be a supportive environment.

 

But it is true to a lot of people. And if anyone is scared off it really is

their choice to interpret it as a threat. For goodness sakes, it's not new

news, surely, that vegans might be interested in animal welfare issues, is

it??? And as for supportive environment, it's not very supportive to feel

one can't speak about a common topic amongst vegans - animal welfare

 

>>imo it is selfish to want to tailor a group to what you want to talk

about. It's quite obvious that the topic of animal welfare is close to many

of our hearts as vegans

 

>So does that mean every list has to welcome every topic if a couple of

people on it wish to discuss it?

 

I don't believe there is just a couple of people here who would like the

freedom to embrace animal welfare as one of the topics to be discussed here

 

>After all the rest can just look away? I hope you don't mind if we start

talking about Star Trek as I'm sure there must be lots of fans on here and

it would be selfish to stop them.

 

sounds like another " can we be racists too? " comment. It's petty and

clearly over looks the importance that many vegans give to animal welfare

issues. If there was a quiz show and one of the questions was " what of the

following qualities would belong to a vegan? a) caring about animals b)

racist qualities c) star trek fans " what answer would you give and what

answer would the majority of vegans give?

 

>>If the majority who speak up decide they don't want any issues of animal

welfare talked about then that's how it will have to be, but I suggest that

you (Laura) change the following part of the description >>on the

home page, as it is misleading. " though is somewhere

that vegans in the UK....can form an online community. Where they can be

themselves and talk about what >>interests them, whether related to veganism

or not, as well as share useful information in a friendly and supportive

environment. "

 

>I wrote that and it was true before this discussion even came up and in my

mind it is till true now. AR was never a banned topic in the way it is being

discussed now. The list rules state that off topic >comments are welcome so

long as they do not dominate the list. Regular posting of AR material would

violate that rule, the occasional discussion like this does not. Of course

that's all open to change but >please do not make thinly veiled accusations

of hypocrisy against me.

 

I wasn't! Why are you so defensive? I actually wasn't even thinking about

who wrote that description at the time of quoting it. Just thought of it as

's description. My point was a valid one, and it is you who decides

to interpret it as an accusation directed at you. I was just making it clear

that it shouldn't be seen as outragious to want to discuss animal welfare

issues when the description encourages talking about what you like,

especially when animal welfare isn't a million miles away interest wise to

many vegans. It is also you who is interpreting that to want to talk about

animal rights/welfare means the whole list will become bombarded with animal

rights material. I have made it clear several times that my intention would

be to just embrace it as one of several topics, not to bombard the list with

mass generated mails on animal rights issues. I still don't understand why

animal welfare would be seen as off topic on a vegan list.

 

>I also take offence at your claims of my, and others, attempting to of deny

you freedom of speech.

 

Again, it's your choice to take offense. I could say I'm taking offense by

your obvious unfriendly tone with me. But in the end it's me who allows

myself to be offended, no one else. If a few people here say " don't speak

about animal welfare issues on this vegan list " then yes i think those

people are attempting to deny me (and many others here) freedom of speech,

when you take into account that the present description encourages

conversation whether related to veganism or not. Again 'though, I can't see

that animal welfare isn't related to veganism.

 

> are free and easy to set up, no one is stopping you starting

your own VeganAR group. For all the freedom you seem to claim is your due to

be able to discuss whatever you like, in doing so >you would be ignoring the

desires of others and would be forcing them off of this list.

 

And what are the desires of all the 182 members on this list? All I know is

that it is common knowledge that veganism and animal welfare will always be

closely connected. And one thing I do know for sure, there are more vegans

who care about animals than are racists/trekkie fans! ; - )

 

>Freedom of speech comes with trust and an expectation that it be used

fairly, it is not something you can use to push >your own agenda in spite of

others.

 

Are you saying this to yourself?! ; - ) Why do you see animal welfare as

being my own agenda?! Is this vegan list purely for those who are vegan for

dietry/health reasons?

 

>It is Laura's call now but you have put me firmly in the anti-AR camp

because of your intransigent position and I too would leave if the list

changes in the direction you desire

 

oh dear you do give me a lot of power over what decisions you make! You also

hold a lot of contempt in your voice. I have never held this towards you,

just voiced my opinion as a list member that animal welfare be embraced as a

topic along with other vegan related topics

 

>because I can see that it would be too single minded and judgmental to be

of any interest to me.

 

what, because people will be allowed to talk about animal welfare issues

amongst other topics? single minded comes to mind if someone wants to stop

one topic of conversation. it's not me that is suggesting stopping a topic

of discussion. so far it's you and Oliver (I think a couple of others

expressed agreement) that have said that they think any animal welfare topic

should be taken to another list

 

>In my opinion there is something wrong with a list if half of it members

are not interested in half of its discussions, and if they feel the need to

constantly justify themselves to others.

 

Yes I am feeling like I am constantly having to justify why I as a vegan

would like to talk about animal welfare issues on a vegan list. And why

would half of the members (probably more than that) not be interested in

it's discussions? Maybe they feel awkward starting ones to do with animal

welfare. As you were the moderator from the beginning, I presume you made

your feelings clear from the start that you don't like talking about animal

welfare on this list?

 

>That, of course, is countered by the fact that half of the list never said

anything so who knows what they thought. And is it better for this to become

a smaller but busy list as opposed to a larger yet quiet >one?

 

So you would like it to be composed of a smaller number of people who want

to talk about what YOU want to talk about? Why not just lighten up on this

pressure that people should not talk about a topic that is so unbelievably

related to veganism? Then no one has to leave. Again, it is not being

suggested that this list will be bombarded by animal rights demonstrations

posts, just that it be embraced as a topic along with recipes, products and

whatever else we're so busy talking about on this list.

 

>(Just waiting for the obligatory mention of Nazi's)

 

you said it ; - )

 

Jak

[Guest guest]

Sorry Jak, I don't have time for a more considered reply than this at the

moment, and realise the discussion is nigh-on dead, but here goes...

 

I was probably the first person to state I'd leave if this became an AR

list.

 

You are the one that thought there may be issues about the list accepting AR

talk.

 

If you've read the previous list content in the archives, you should already

know the level at which *this list* covers those issues. Therefore, you must

have been proposing pushing the list more into AR than it previously was

when you said :

 

> I've been searching for a group at that focuses on

> animal activism in the uk but can't find any with a decent amount

> of people (low numbers usually means no posts, not always, but usually).

> The main reason I recently joined this list and vegans uncensored is to

> get talking about doing stuff for the animals (basically what you describe

> above). Hopefully this list will decide to embrace these as topics for

> this list.

 

The list did not forbid AR talk or claim that no-one should ever mention

anything AR related... However, this is not intended as an AR list, and

there are places much more suited to those discussions. AR will crop up in

vegan discussions (and vice-versa) but if the focus is on AR, then it is

getting into completely different territory to where veganism alone should

lead the list. That is what led to my original comment re. leaving if it

became an AR list - of course there are many issues which may be read as AR

in any level of veganism, but there are also people that are dairy

intolerant etc. and people that choose veganism for other health reasons.

 

Also, Animal Welfare and AR are *not* the same. 'though this may not be the

place for that discussion :-)

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

> This is getting ridiculous.

 

It is, isn't it. You are understanding now. My point is that this

whole discussion is absurd when the argument is being centred around

your rights being denied.

 

> I don't believe there is just a couple of people here who would like

> the

> freedom to embrace animal welfare as one of the topics to be discussed

> here

 

That hasn't been what I've seen judging by the posts on here?

 

> If there was a quiz show and one of the questions was " what of the

> following qualities would belong to a vegan?

 

Oh, you're not understanding then? Being vegan is a multi-faceted and

complex thing, not multiple choice. I am rather confused by your

arguments for weffare yet your inability to empathize which is a major

pre-requisite of compassion?

 

> I wasn't! Why are you so defensive?

 

Because I built this list out of nothing (and back into nothing 8-))

and have pretty much had to fight to defend it against certain people

throughout it's entire existence. If Laura and Steve wishes to change

the list then I am happy with that because I do not have the time

necessary to keep running it and they have to do so as they see fit,

but as a list member I am interested in what it used to stand for and

you seem intent on changing that to suit your own interests when there

are many other AR lists available yet only two UK vegan ones, both of

which are pretty bad.

 

> I actually wasn't even thinking about who wrote that description at

> the time of quoting it.

 

I do apologize here, I did not believe that you knew who wrote it but I

accept that I did not make that clear. I stand by what I said though,

and that is that you are accusing that statement of being hypocritical.

 

> I have made it clear several times that my intention would

> be to just embrace it as one of several topics, not to bombard the

> list with

> mass generated mails on animal rights issues.

 

Because that is all you have done?

 

> I still don't understand why animal welfare would be seen as off topic

> on a vegan list.

 

Without wishing to appear rude, but there is no way of putting this,

that is your problem. For some people it is, and whether or not you

agree you just have to accept that fact.

 

> Again, it's your choice to take offense

 

I'm sure there are those who would argue that we can all train our

minds this way and that but personally I don't to that, to me

it is just about learning to repressing our true feelings. I do not

choose to be offended, I just am. I'm happy to be that way, that

things which I find hypocritical and which violate my own 'territory'

(for want of a better term) stir up some reaction in me so that I

protect my 'territory' rather than sit back like a lurker on the list

who says and does nothing but then complains when things change.

 

> If a few people here say " don't speak

> about animal welfare issues on this vegan list " then yes i think those

> people are attempting to deny me (and many others here) freedom of

> speech,

 

But it's not all about you and your freedom of speech (which is coming

from where?). A list is a community.

 

> And what are the desires of all the 182 members on this list?

 

I've been here a lot longer than you (I was member number one) and on

one occasion I actually asked them. This list then split into two as a

result of that (actually the original was renamed and a new one

created), so I think I can safely say I know more about their desires

than you do. Their desires may have changed though, in which case they

only need to speak up.

 

> Why do you see animal welfare as

> being my own agenda?!

 

Because you are the only one pushing this discussion.

 

> Is this vegan list purely for those who are vegan for

> dietry/health reasons?

 

It is for anyone and everyone and so should encompass that generality,

not a single aspect that links one such group.

 

> oh dear you do give me a lot of power over what decisions you make!

 

No I don't, I am making a clear statement that the kind of list you

desire is not the kind of list I desire, and I am not the first person

to do so. I do not know why you feel the need to promote yourself as

the cause of that decision. I will also add that if this list becomes

a Star Trek one I will also leave (sorry Ian).

 

> Yes I am feeling like I am constantly having to justify why I as a

> vegan

> would like to talk about animal welfare issues on a vegan list.

 

And you seem incapable to see that from my position (and that of

others) you are making it sound like we are not vegans because we don't

share that same interest. I can understand your perspective of what

your veganism means to you but it is rather disappointing that rather

than accepting us you instead choose to question our motives and call

us selfish for being different.

 

> And why

> would half of the members (probably more than that) not be interested

> in

> it's discussions?

 

I know you will accuse me of being contemptuous again, and I don't mean

to sound so short, but it's just an example. Why nit pick over the

minor points in ignorance of the idea being expressed?

 

> Maybe they feel awkward starting ones to do with animal

> welfare. As you were the moderator from the beginning, I presume you

> made

> your feelings clear from the start that you don't like talking about

> animal

> welfare on this list?

 

Never have because no topic was ever banned (except one but that was

very specific and resulted from a particular incident). In fact AR has

been discussed on several occasions. If you re-read my message you

will see I make a clear distinction from my perspective. I also never

decided on what is and is not right for this list, it was all done

through agreement from the list membership.

 

> So you would like it to be composed of a smaller number of people who

> want

> to talk about what YOU want to talk about?

 

Sigh. Really I get the impression you are being argumentative for the

sake of it now. I raised to counter questions and did not express any

answer to either. I did so to suggest there are two equal and opposing

view points and that one of them would invalid my arguments. I cannot

understand why you feel the need to personalize this discussion and

ignore whatever I try to say.

 

> Just that it be embraced as a topic along with recipes, products and

> whatever else we're so busy talking about on this list.

 

I don't think there has ever been that many recipes on this list, and

only marginally more product discussion.

 

>> (Just waiting for the obligatory mention of Nazi's)

> you said it ; - )

 

I take it you are aware of the infamous life-cycle of an online

discussion that has been floating around ever since email and

newsgroups began?

 

SUMMARY:

 

This entire discussion started as follows (Jak in response to Laura):

 

>> I was thinking - calendar with events like demos, nat vegan day etc,

>> info on letter writing, veganism in the news, get togethers, ideas

>> for activism etc. What do you think? Speak up people!

>

> this sounds great to me, just the sort of group I'm looking for in

> fact! But I have noted what Michael said, and realise this might not

> be what others on the list want the group to be used for. Maybe other

> people could speak up with their opinion on this?

 

This is not the kind of list I am interested in, and why I tried to

express my opinion as requested. I've made now said enough to make my

position very clear so I do not feel any more needs to be said, and

this is getting far too personal to be productive any more.

 

As the former moderator, and still the list owner, I do not feel

comfortable with my rôle in this discussion because I feel it looks

like I am fighting to ensure the list does not change. If when asked

people do wish to see the list change direction as noted above then so

be it - there is no point in having a list if it does not meet the

interests of its members. If I had wanted to be on such a list though

I would have either joined one or created one, hence why I personally

would leave. If the decision is between a dead list or an active one

where I am the only person to leave then the choice to make is palpable.

 

I would suggested this be put to some sort of vote though to clear it

up for once and for all rather than leave things in a state of acrimony.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:58:48 +0100, mavreela <ndisc wrote:

 

>> I don't believe there is just a couple of people here who would like

>> the freedom to embrace animal welfare as one of the topics to be discussed

>> here

 

>That hasn't been what I've seen judging by the posts on here?

 

There are only a handful of people discussing this issue from either

perspective. The majority, as ever, remain silent, so I don't see that

any conclusions can be drawn either way from that.

 

>If when asked

>people do wish to see the list change direction as noted above then so

>be it - there is no point in having a list if it does not meet the

>interests of its members.

 

Based on the current list charter posted yesterday, I don't see that any

change is required. The charter allows people to write about whatever

they like, whether it's related to veganism or not. On that basis, a

change would only need to be made if you're advocating that people

shouldn't be able to discuss whatever they like (subject to decency

etc.).

 

Perhaps it's all pretty moot anyway - few of the rs seem to

want to discuss anything at all!

 

Chris W

[Guest guest]

If people can discuss any relevant subject in a sensible even humourous

way....why shouldn't AW/AR be discussed from time to time. ----- Original

Message -----

" Chris W " <chrisw

 

Friday, October 24, 2003 12:15 PM

Re: AR topic

 

 

> On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 11:58:48 +0100, mavreela <ndisc wrote:

>

> >> I don't believe there is just a couple of people here who would like

> >> the freedom to embrace animal welfare as one of the topics to be

discussed

> >> here

>

> >That hasn't been what I've seen judging by the posts on here?

>

> There are only a handful of people discussing this issue from either

> perspective. The majority, as ever, remain silent, so I don't see that

> any conclusions can be drawn either way from that.

>

> >If when asked

> >people do wish to see the list change direction as noted above then so

> >be it - there is no point in having a list if it does not meet the

> >interests of its members.

>

> Based on the current list charter posted yesterday, I don't see that any

> change is required. The charter allows people to write about whatever

> they like, whether it's related to veganism or not. On that basis, a

> change would only need to be made if you're advocating that people

> shouldn't be able to discuss whatever they like (subject to decency

> etc.).

>

> Perhaps it's all pretty moot anyway - few of the rs seem to

> want to discuss anything at all!

>

> Chris W

>

>

> ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,

> there may be another side to the story you have not heard.

> ---------------------------

> Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>

> Un: send a blank message to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Chris,

 

That isn't the charter but the " brief description " of the list, which

due to a limit in the number of permitted characters is regrettably

ambiguous. The charter (if you can call it that) is encapsulated in

the rules and guidelines which can be found here:

 

http://f1.grp.fs.com/v1/

MAaZP4wW2WnQ_C6peq4h7YhBYJ5EWFp0Lqid3p37wdW85ThAXqNd9I12BUVG19156p0oW56e

G4n8FG-pZH0//Rules%20and%20guidelines

 

(Blame for the URL, you can also go to

/ and select the

Rules and Guidelines link)

 

I would also recommend Steve and/or Laura go through the outgoing

message (Management > Membership > Welcome message) and the files in

the folder of the Files section to replace references to me

with either themselves or something generic. I'm happy to make these

changes if you let me know which way to go with them.

 

Michael

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

 

I decided to reply to this (although I had decided to leave this debate alone) in a final attempt to make my intent known

 

>If you've read the previous list content in the archives, you should already>know the level at which *this list* covers those issues. Therefore, you must>have been proposing pushing the list more into AR than it previously was>when you said :

I haven't read the previous list content in the archives, I hardly have the time to look at my present mails, so I don't have the time to read back over old mails, especially when it's time consuming to find all the relevant mails on the page

 

you quoted me:

> I've been searching for a group at that focuses on> animal activism in the uk but can't find any with a decent amount> of people (low numbers usually means no posts, not always, but usually).> The main reason I recently joined this list and vegans uncensored is to> get talking about doing stuff for the animals (basically what you describe> above). Hopefully this list will decide to embrace these as topics for> this list.

It's true that one of the motivating factors for me joining this list was to discuss how to help the animals further (as well as already adopting a vegan life style). I never came on this list to stir anything up, I honestly assumed that there would be many vegans here wanting to discuss AR type issues, and most importantly what they are getting actively involved in in their local community. I have genuinely been suprised that AR topics would be unwelcomed by some people here, it never occured to me that this subject would get other vegans' backs up. I think that's why I got into debating about it, because I couldn't understand why it should be allowed to talk about some topics related to veganism, but not others.

 

But I want to make it clear (which is why I'm still continuing with this thread) that I never intended trying to take over the list as an AR list (as much as I could do in an online community of 180 other vegans who all have their own interests to talk about). Another important point is I don't have time to bombard the list with loads of AR emails. I wouldn't send the mass generated type of emails either. So it really seems that some people here are getting defensive due to past experiences with others who wanted it as an AR list. Also I never would just discuss AR only and my other posts show this. I haven't really been talking about real AR issues in any of my posts, this thread hardly counts as that, it's more to do with the dynamics of this list and why the subject of AR is a tricky one here. If posts were really about AR, then we would be talking about things like circumstances for farm animals and ways in which we can help (like writing to local MPs) and suggested letters and other action.

 

>The list did not forbid AR talk or claim that no-one should ever mention>anything AR related...

 

Yes I saw that from reading the description before I joined. However Oliver did recently say "if you want to talk about AR ... it would be nice if you could take it to the appropriateforum ... rather than use this one out of convenience". And then Michael, the previous list owner, said he agreed with Oliver. However, both have now said it is allowed on the list, but again it's implied that there's some sort of line one mustn't cross. So it seems it would probably be taking it over that line if I were to engage in AR talk with others here, like Laura (who's now the list owner) who also had an interest in talking about the animals.

 

>However, this is not intended as an AR list, and there are places much more suited to >those discussions. AR will crop up in vegan discussions (and vice-versa) but if the focus >is on AR, then it is getting into completely different territory to where veganism alone >should lead the list. That is what led to my original comment re. leaving if it>became an AR list - of course there are many issues which may be read as AR>in any level of veganism

 

this is what makes all this so hard to take on board. On the one hand it's being said that AR topics are not banned, but on the other it is being implied there is some sort of line you mustn't cross if you do talk about it

 

>but there are also people that are dairy intolerant etc. and people that choose veganism for >other health reasons.

yes, and I expected to see chat about this as well as other topics in this online vegan community

>Also, Animal Welfare and AR are *not* the same. 'though this may not be the>place for that discussion :-)

I see it more simply than putting boundaries with definitions, that all animals have the right to be treated with kindness and respect. All I wanted to do was discuss ways to help the animals with other like minded vegans

I'm not aware of the accepted unspoken rules in this group that are known by those who've been members for a while. I never had any bad intent to come and disrupt this list, as I never knew AR was a sore spot here. I was just frustrated because I'd looked forward to talking about that thread with other likeminded vegans. As I mentioned before, on realising the mention of AR was upsetting some poeple here, I tried to find other that cover vegan AR that are also in the UK. There aren't any with more than a few people, and posts are seldom. And before anyone mentions about me setting up my own group, I don't have the time! Hopefully someone will set one up. It just seems a shame that here we have an established vegan community of 180 people, that those of us who would like to talk about helping the animals can't comfortably do so here. I should imagine a vegan community would want to talk about various topics, and I personally would never object to others talking about other related topics to veganism.

 

However, Michael, Oliver and others here who don't really like to see AR topics on this list, don't have too much to fear! ; - ) I'd feel too awkward at starting a genuine AR thread after all that's been said. I'll have another read of one of my back copies of The Vegan instead! (hardly the same I know ; - )

 

Really I don't want any bad feeling about all this. I just wanted to make it clear where I stand. Yes, it might have been that I would have talked about AR more than other topics, BUT that's just me. There are many here who would talk about other topics of interest to them, that's what makes it a community, and that's why I could never convert this whole list to an AR one, even if I wanted to (which I don't!)

 

Best Wishes,

 

Jak