Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 It would be greatly appreciated if Paul Russell would discontinue writing to me personally. It appears that once again he did not have an original thought and took the " advice " of another listmember to do so. His emails to me are unpleasant in nature and quite annoying. Please warn the other listmembers about his inappropriate activities outside of the list. Have a great weekend! Fidyl Live Simply So That Others May Simply Live Yoga-With-Nancy-SoFla/ SignSoFla/ SoFlaVegans/ SoFlaSchools/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Oh for goodness sake, Paul's a lovely bloke and makes great pizza too! Honestly, you two...!! It's gone far too far. Have a great weekend everyone! I'm off to Tijuana. (If anyone knows of a vegan restaurant there, please please let me know!!) W xx > Please warn the other listmembers about his > inappropriate activities > outside of the list. > ______________________ BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd./evt=21064/*http://bt..co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 >Oh for goodness sake, Paul's a lovely bloke and makes >great pizza too! Honestly, you two...!! It's gone far >too far. Have a great weekend everyone! I'm off to >Tijuana. (If anyone knows of a vegan restaurant there, >please please let me know!!) > Hi Wendy - You're too kind about my vegan pizzas - but hey, you evidently survived them. ;-) Have fun in Tijuana - say hi to Burt Bacharach for me. Cheers, Paul " I will not get annoyed by spammers. I will not get annoyed by spammers. I will not get annoyed by spammers... " -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Actually, that was to be my last since you have proven yourself to be oh, so wrong in every detail. (Hope your foot size isn't too large. It must hurt each time you put it into your mouth.) After all, you can't argue with an idiot! ThanX, everyone, who wrote me personally (not you, Paul), and confided their feelings about this " lovely bloke. " Ironically, not only from this list, but the others he mentioned. Now, I can echo your sentiments and end this atrocity created by this one-issue Paul-monster. [ER - that was funny about your story everytime you had an important matter to discuss with your mum, all she could remember was your using the " F " word and didn't care about the topic. That is a perfect example of this " lovely bloke! " ] Enjoy your Winter Solstice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 TJ was awful! I will never let my friend's curiosity lead me astray again! Hollyweird's fun though but the amount of fur is surprising if not totally off putting. I must say I was totally impressed with Milennium and am going there again for my last night. Hope all's well! Deb x BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 >TJ was awful! I will never let my friend's curiosity lead me astray >again! Hollyweird's fun though but the amount of fur is surprising >if not totally off putting. I must say I was totally impressed with >Milennium and am going there again for my last night. Hope all's >well! Oh dear - that's what I'd heard - I hope it wasn't awful as in life-threatening ? And yes, Millennium is awesome - my two favourite restaurants in the world are Millennium in SF and Terre a Terre in Brighton. If I could only go to one I'd be hard pressed to choose between them, but I guess Millennium would get the casting vote because it's completely vegan. Hope you've had a great time in CA (apart from all the rain !) - I guess it's nearly time to return to dear old Blighty ? We're heading that way ourselves on Monday. Cheers, Paul -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Well I'm surprised you went actually. Tijuana sounds like one of vegan-unfriendliest places on the planet, www.tijuana.com lists the main eating places that are nearly all based on beef or seafood, in fact one restaurant on that list boasts about being all about MEAT, and even worse the leading attractions are listed as bullfighting, fishing, dog racing and rodeo, with Tijuana's shops boasting lots of leather goods on sale. Why would a vegan want to go somewhere like that, especially halfway across the world, unless of course you are one of the dedicated people doing a specifically organised event like a cruelty-free fayre to educate the ignorant people there about veganism/AR? Sounds like they need a visit from the AR people. But if you are just going somewhere for fun, better to stay home or go for a holiday somewhere where at least they mostly understand veganism. As for the fur coats, you could chew some gum and when it's all nicely chewed up and lost the flavour, stick it on someone's fur coat! Saves you looking for a bin and it will sticky up the fur coat nicely! Lesley wendy shapiro [wendyzshapiro]16 December 2003 00:34 Subject: Re: To Paul Russell & List Manager <mavreela> TJ was awful! I will never let my friend's curiosity lead me astray again! Hollyweird's fun though but the amount of fur is surprising if not totally off putting. I must say I was totally impressed with Milennium and am going there again for my last night. Hope all's well! Deb x BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 > >Well I'm surprised you went actually. Tijuana sounds like one of >vegan-unfriendliest places on the planet, ><http://www.tijuana.com/>www.tijuana.com lists the main eating >places that are nearly all based on beef or seafood, in fact one >restaurant on that list boasts about being all about MEAT, and even >worse the leading attractions are listed as bullfighting, fishing, >dog racing and rodeo, with Tijuana's shops boasting lots of leather >goods on sale. Why would a vegan want to go somewhere like that, >especially halfway across the world, unless of course you are one of >the dedicated people doing a specifically organised event like a >cruelty-free fayre to educate the ignorant people there about >veganism/AR? Sounds like they need a visit from the AR people. But >if you are just going somewhere for fun, better to stay home or go >for a holiday somewhere where at least they mostly understand >veganism. > It's probably not helpful or fair to judge people in developing countries by Western standards. Paul -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 What Western standards??? Since when are the standards I am judging the Tijuanans by "Western standards"? That's a new one on me since as I understand it vegetarianism and respect for animals has been alive and well in India for many years, long before it was popular here in Britain. I've honestly always thought of Western standards as being more about greed, I've never considered vegan standards to be especially a western idea at all. What does anyone else think? How can vegan standards be anything but the opposite of Western standards? I also don't think it is helpful or fair to patronise the people of Tijuana or expect less decent behaviour towards animals from them just because they live in a developing country. Your attitude strikes me as defeatist, as if you think they cannot change. I certainly believe that as human beings with presumably some capacity for empathy, they can and should know better than to be cruel to animals, the same as anyone in the west. Cruelty is cruelty the world over, it makes absolutely no difference to the animals who it is that is abusing them and besides I was not referring to someone only eating meat in a desperate situation because they had nothing else to eat (I certainly would not judge anyone in that position), I was referring to restaurants serving meat, people paying for meals out, hardly poverty stricken people, and also bullfighting and other cruel sports which are pure sadism and nothing to do with survival in poverty, so how can you justify that? Lesley Paul Russell [prussell]16 December 2003 16:24 Subject: RE: To Paul Russell & List Manager <mavreela>>>Well I'm surprised you went actually. Tijuana sounds like one of >vegan-unfriendliest places on the planet, ><http://www.tijuana.com/>www.tijuana.com lists the main eating >places that are nearly all based on beef or seafood, in fact one >restaurant on that list boasts about being all about MEAT, and even >worse the leading attractions are listed as bullfighting, fishing, >dog racing and rodeo, with Tijuana's shops boasting lots of leather >goods on sale. Why would a vegan want to go somewhere like that, >especially halfway across the world, unless of course you are one of >the dedicated people doing a specifically organised event like a >cruelty-free fayre to educate the ignorant people there about >veganism/AR? Sounds like they need a visit from the AR people. But >if you are just going somewhere for fun, better to stay home or go >for a holiday somewhere where at least they mostly understand >veganism.>It's probably not helpful or fair to judge people in developing countries by Western standards.Paul-- ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 > >What Western standards??? >Since when are the standards I am judging the Tijuanans by " Western >standards " ? That's a new one on me since as I understand it >vegetarianism and respect for animals has been alive and well in >India for many years, long before it was popular here in Britain. >I've honestly always thought of Western standards as being more >about greed, I've never considered vegan standards to be especially >a western idea at all. What does anyone else think? How can vegan >standards be anything but the opposite of Western standards? > >I also don't think it is helpful or fair to patronise the people of >Tijuana or expect less decent behaviour towards animals from them >just because they live in a developing country. Your attitude >strikes me as defeatist, as if you think they cannot change. I >certainly believe that as human beings with presumably some capacity >for empathy, they can and should know better than to be cruel to >animals, the same as anyone in the west. Cruelty is cruelty the >world over, it makes absolutely no difference to the animals who it >is that is abusing them and besides I was not referring to someone >only eating meat in a desperate situation because they had nothing >else to eat (I certainly would not judge anyone in that position), I >was referring to restaurants serving meat, people paying for meals >out, hardly poverty stricken people, and also bullfighting and other >cruel sports which are pure sadism and nothing to do with survival >in poverty, so how can you justify that? > I'm not justifying it. My only point is that it's also too easy for us in the privileged and wealthy developed countries to pass judgement on those who live in poverty and who do not have access to basic healthcare and education that we take for granted. Given that our own cosy house is hardly in order as far as the treatment of animals is concerned, it seems somewhat hypocritical and judgmental to attack people in poor countries who do not enjoy our affluent lifestyle, for doing much the same things that people in developed countries do. Paul -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I agree Lesley, and India is an excellent example. Janey What Western standards??? Since when are the standards I am judging the Tijuanans by "Western standards"? That's a new one on me since as I understand it vegetarianism and respect for animals has been alive and well in India for many years, long before it was popular here in Britain. I've honestly always thought of Western standards as being more about greed, I've never considered vegan standards to be especially a western idea at all. What does anyone else think? How can vegan standards be anything but the opposite of Western standards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 >I agree Lesley, and India is an excellent example. > Take a look at the leather industry in India and see if you still feel the same way. Paul -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Thanks Janey, and in response to Paul I have to say that I certainly don't think I criticise the Western world's animal abusers any LESS than the animal abusers of the developing countries, I just don't see them as being any different when it comes to abusing animals for sport especially. People are surely capable of empathy whether they are educated and privileged or not, and if people have suffered poverty, would that not be expected to cause them to have more empathy for the suffering animals than the privileged people would have? Therefore I would expect that it would be a fair bit easier to get the AR message across to people in the developing world than it would be to get it across to some of privileged people such as our Royal family. I'm not sure how anyone would get the impression that I was judging developing countries more than the affluent western ones when it comes to animal abuse, I would also equally advise vegans not to go holidaying to affluent western towns and cities that were vegan-unfriendly. I certainly wasn't picking on Tijuana for being in a developing country, it did not occur to me to care where in the world it was, just that the overall impression I got was that there were a lot of cruelty there and very little vegan-awareness! I guess I don't think in terms of developing countries and affluent countries when it comes to cruelty and I am certainly not a slave to political correctness. Lesley Janey [janey]16 December 2003 17:44 Subject: Re: To Paul Russell & List Manager <mavreela> I agree Lesley, and India is an excellent example. Janey What Western standards??? Since when are the standards I am judging the Tijuanans by "Western standards"? That's a new one on me since as I understand it vegetarianism and respect for animals has been alive and well in India for many years, long before it was popular here in Britain. I've honestly always thought of Western standards as being more about greed, I've never considered vegan standards to be especially a western idea at all. What does anyone else think? How can vegan standards be anything but the opposite of Western standards? ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Yes, I agree with your comments. :-) Janey Thanks Janey, and in response to Paul I have to say that I certainly don't think I criticise the Western world's animal abusers any LESS than the animal abusers of the developing countries, I just don't see them as being any different when it comes to abusing animals for sport especially. People are surely capable of empathy whether they are educated and privileged or not, and if people have suffered poverty, would that not be expected to cause them to have more empathy for the suffering animals than the privileged people would have? Therefore I would expect that it would be a fair bit easier to get the AR message across to people in the developing world than it would be to get it across to some of privileged people such as our Royal family. I'm not sure how anyone would get the impression that I was judging developing countries more than the affluent western ones when it comes to animal abuse, I would also equally advise vegans not to go holidaying to affluent western towns and cities that were vegan-unfriendly. I certainly wasn't picking on Tijuana for being in a developing country, it did not occur to me to care where in the world it was, just that the overall impression I got was that there were a lot of cruelty there and very little vegan-awareness! I guess I don't think in terms of developing countries and affluent countries when it comes to cruelty and I am certainly not a slave to political correctness. Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 > >Thanks Janey, and in response to Paul I have to say that I certainly >don't think I criticise the Western world's animal abusers any LESS >than the animal abusers of the developing countries, I just don't >see them as being any different when it comes to abusing animals for >sport especially. People are surely capable of empathy whether they >are educated and privileged or not, and if people have suffered >poverty, would that not be expected to cause them to have more >empathy for the suffering animals than the privileged people would >have? Therefore I would expect that it would be a fair bit easier to >get the AR message across to people in the developing world than it >would be to get it across to some of privileged people such as our >Royal family. I'm not sure how anyone would get the impression that >I was judging developing countries more than the affluent western >ones when it comes to animal abuse, I would also equally advise >vegans not to go holidaying to affluent western towns and cities >that were vegan-unfriendly. I certainly wasn't picking on Tijuana >for being in a developing country, it did not occur to me to care >where in the world it was, just that the overall impression I got >was that there were a lot of cruelty there and very little >vegan-awareness! I guess I don't think in terms of developing >countries and affluent countries when it comes to cruelty and I am >certainly not a slave to political correctness. > Meat-eating and attitudes towards animals, human rights, the environment etc are largely cultural and take a long time to change. And they only tend to change for the better when people have a basic minimum quality of life and access to education. Look at the UK for example - the vegan movement was only founded 50 odd years ago (about the time that education and health care became generally available - now there's a coincidence !), which is just a couple of generations ago, and no time at all in the grand scheme of things. We should also look at ourselves - how many of us have been began since birth ? Is it not hypocritical of us as former meat eaters to condemn those who have not yet travelled quite as far as us ? And none of us leads such a perfect life that we do not cause suffering and death to animals (and other people) in various ways (if you have a hard time accepting this, just think about what your taxes get spent on). If we can only see the world in black and white terms and have no compassion for our fellow human beings (especially those whose quality of life is so much poorer than our own that we can hardly even begin to comprehend it) then we must appear to others as strident, dogmatic, insensitive and lacking in compassion. In my experience this tends to alienate people who might otherwise be sympathetic to our arguments, and so this does harm not only to the vegan movement itself but also to our cause. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Paul -- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Wendy (or Deb) are you still on this list? I emailed you a couple of times about your puppet show you are starting up. If it is still on, we would be very interested in it if you can do it for the next vegan families do, but I have not had a reply from you about it. We know one other vegan who does kids' entertainment such as puppet show in the London area and she is not available. I would rather we got someone who was vegan or veggie, but if we don't hear from you we will have to find an entertainer from some other sources who will not be vegan or veggie. We plan to have the vegan families party on the Sunday after Easter (the Sunday before Easter if the room we want is not available. If you aren't likely to have your project set up in time, please could you just let me know, and can you recommend anyone as an alternative? Lesley wendy shapiro [wendyzshapiro]16 December 2003 00:34 Subject: Re: To Paul Russell & List Manager <mavreela> TJ was awful! I will never let my friend's curiosity lead me astray again! Hollyweird's fun though but the amount of fur is surprising if not totally off putting. I must say I was totally impressed with Milennium and am going there again for my last night. Hope all's well! Deb x BT Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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