Questioning Vegan

October 16, 2004

I think animals have have been put here to sustain man and other animals' existence. There is too much evidence of relationship between diets heavily animal in anture, and poor or declining health.

We must have shoes, clothing and the like. I can even see , in some cases, as in chicken noodle soup and and fevers and flu, that we cannot escape fully consuming an animal product of some nature.

Dairy products are known to be the most mucous causing foods of all, but an occasional sweet tooth that allows you to savour your youth or memories thereof, does both your heart, mind and soul well. If you are labouring in thought on this matter, that very act is consuming too much quality time and intellect.

Take a taste once in a while . . . . . . .knowing full well that the big "C", Cholesterol holds some real dangers for us all. This will not kill you, but it may it you toil so much with the very thought.

Out,

P B Hallsometimesimcold <thatisthequestion wrote:

Hi all.I am an adult woman with a child and husband. We have all been vegansfor many years. For some reason lately I have been questioningveganism more. I know my husband has as well. That's why I've decided to join all kinds of mailing lists to get allkinds of perspectives on concerns or just feelings I have been having.I will then post all relevant responses on a website if anyone isinterested.Ok I think part of my questioning is for selfish reasons, mainly thatby even allowing myself to question veganism, I have opened myself upto the possibility of eating dairy products again which is something Ihave not done for years. By being in this frame of mine, I findmyself entertaining so many delicious possibilities for food choicesthat I have not, nor never thought I would have

again. When youbelieve in what you are doing very strongly and don't even entertainthe possibility of anything else then it's not hard but like I saidthat hasn't been the case lately.I have started really absorbing the fact that to even exist, there isno way to prevent contributing to animal cruelty because just aboutevery material possession we have probably in some way caused a livingbeing to suffer or die.I also feel very badly for my child who has been a vegan for as longas he can remember. I have tried to explain to him why we choose thislifestyle but I know he still feels like an outsider in so manysituations. I know that sometimes in life, we have to sacrifice forthe greater good. Of course I know that. That's why I chose thelifestyle I have, but I just don't know how much good I'm really doingand I just don't know if the immense amount of inconvenience my familyand I have gone through

is worth the amount of good we are doing. My son is happy in many ways and I know he is lucky, especially incomparison to so many animals that go through such horrific tragediesbecause of the selfish human race. I don't want to be part of theuncaring people who take part in their suffering but I don't believe Ican avoid it anyway so I find myself wondering what the hell I amreally doing.If I could snap my fingers and make the entire meat/dairy industry goaway, I would do it in a minute. I would cut off a limb for that tohappen, I swear. It's not that I don't HATE it all. Like I said, Ijust don't know if the small amount I'm probably contributing is worthit all. And also, the arguments saying that eating the products I doeat that I believe are more humane, actually contribute to animalsuffering in some way, really make me question the amount of good I'mreally doing.I always thought

that I would always be a vegan and that still mayvery well be the case. Sometimes you just need a kick in the butt andin some part that's what I'm reaching out for. But mainly, I'mwanting to really truly examine my choices and see if I can in goodconscience choose a different lifestyle or to be convinced that thisis in fact making a difference and enough of a difference to continue on. I will post this in different types of communities to get all sorts ofopinions. I have so much more to say that has been running through my mind butfor some reason I'm drawing a blank at this particular moment so I'lljust let this email start it all off and add more as responses toreplies. I'm sure there will be plenty because like I said, I am goingto be posting this to many mailing lists.Sincerely,ExistingHumancontact owner: -owner Mail list:

Delivered-mailing list List-Un: - no flaming arguing or denigration of others allowedcontact owner with complaints regarding posting/list or anything else. Thank you.please share/comment/inform and mostly enjoy this listMake Your Knowledge Sell!http://ctpm.sitesell.com/rowena3510.htmlThis document may contain information that is privileged, confidential, and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. Whether you are the intended recipient or otherwise, you are hereby on notice that any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution, or taking of any action in reliance on the contents of the electronically transmitted materials is prohibited.

October 16, 2004

, prince hall <princehll1>

wrote:

> I think animals have have been put here to sustain man and other

animals' existence. There is too much evidence of relationship between

diets heavily animal in anture, and poor or declining health.

>

> We must have shoes, clothing and the like. I can even see , in some

cases, as in chicken noodle soup and and fevers and flu, that we

cannot escape fully consuming an animal product of some nature.

>

> Dairy products are known to be the most mucous causing foods of all,

but an occasional sweet tooth that allows you to savour your youth or

memories thereof, does both your heart, mind and soul well. If you are

labouring in thought on this matter, that very act is consuming too

much quality time and intellect.

>

> Take a taste once in a while . . . . . . .knowing full well that the

big " C " , Cholesterol holds some real dangers for us all. This will not

kill you, but it may it you toil so much with the very thought.

>

Honestly health is not the main reason we became vegan. It is almost

purely for ethical reasons.

October 16, 2004

Hi all.

I am an adult woman with a child and husband. We have all been vegans

for many years. For some reason lately I have been questioning

veganism more. I know my husband has as well.

That's why I've decided to join all kinds of mailing lists to get all

kinds of perspectives on concerns or just feelings I have been having.

I will then post all relevant responses on a website if anyone is

interested.

Ok I think part of my questioning is for selfish reasons, mainly that

by even allowing myself to question veganism, I have opened myself up

to the possibility of eating dairy products again which is something I

have not done for years. By being in this frame of mine, I find

myself entertaining so many delicious possibilities for food choices

that I have not, nor never thought I would have again. When you

believe in what you are doing very strongly and don't even entertain

the possibility of anything else then it's not hard but like I said

that hasn't been the case lately.

I have started really absorbing the fact that to even exist, there is

no way to prevent contributing to animal cruelty because just about

every material possession we have probably in some way caused a living

being to suffer or die.

I also feel very badly for my child who has been a vegan for as long

as he can remember. I have tried to explain to him why we choose this

lifestyle but I know he still feels like an outsider in so many

situations. I know that sometimes in life, we have to sacrifice for

the greater good. Of course I know that. That's why I chose the

lifestyle I have, but I just don't know how much good I'm really doing

and I just don't know if the immense amount of inconvenience my family

and I have gone through is worth the amount of good we are doing.

My son is happy in many ways and I know he is lucky, especially in

comparison to so many animals that go through such horrific tragedies

because of the selfish human race. I don't want to be part of the

uncaring people who take part in their suffering but I don't believe I

can avoid it anyway so I find myself wondering what the hell I am

really doing.

If I could snap my fingers and make the entire meat/dairy industry go

away, I would do it in a minute. I would cut off a limb for that to

happen, I swear. It's not that I don't HATE it all. Like I said, I

just don't know if the small amount I'm probably contributing is worth

it all. And also, the arguments saying that eating the products I do

eat that I believe are more humane, actually contribute to animal

suffering in some way, really make me question the amount of good I'm

really doing.

I always thought that I would always be a vegan and that still may

very well be the case. Sometimes you just need a kick in the butt and

in some part that's what I'm reaching out for. But mainly, I'm

wanting to really truly examine my choices and see if I can in good

conscience choose a different lifestyle or to be convinced that this

is in fact making a difference and enough of a difference to continue on.

I will post this in different types of communities to get all sorts of

opinions.

I have so much more to say that has been running through my mind but

for some reason I'm drawing a blank at this particular moment so I'll

just let this email start it all off and add more as responses to

replies. I'm sure there will be plenty because like I said, I am going

to be posting this to many mailing lists.

Sincerely,

ExistingHuman

October 16, 2004

Hi there ;=)

First let me say welcome to the list ;=) It's good to have you here, and I hope

you will enjoy the recipes that have been (and will be ) posted (check the

Files), plus all the other things that go on at Vegetarian Health and Slimming!

Okay, about the subject line of this email ;=) - you say you are questioning

veganism. This is a vegetarian list, not a vegan list, so you are likely to get

varied answers - which I suppose is all to the good in one way. But you need

really to go to a committed *vegan* list as well (and I presume you have ;=) I

just had to say that, ya know?) for really really good support as to why you

should not go back to wearing leather and wool and all that as well as not

eating eggs and dairy and honey.

If you want a quick answer - one that doesn't really apply to 'veganism' which

really is about the animals, isn't it - I'd say at least think of your health!

We all

know that eggs are loaded with cholesterol and that dairy is - well, just go and

read the NotMilk page ;=( But you know all this?

If you want the longer answer, I'd say that you'll probably feel much worse

about yourself if you give up your vegan lifestyle. I understand the frustration

of finding out that one's sacrifices don't save the world in a moment. We just

all do what we have to do to live with ourselves and in the world that has

given us so much. You know? Every little bit helps. Every life saved is a life

saved, every little bit of suffering alleviated is better than causing more

suffering. Of course, in a modern world it is almost impossible to avoid

contributing in some way to some sort of suffering, either by commission or

omission. As I say, we all do what we can. You seem to be doing an

admirable job - your husband and son too. Good for you!

I don't know what others on this list will say - there are probably about as

many views as members ;=) But I do hope that you will be able to continue on

the path you have chosen. There are not many vegans in the western world

and those who are here are an inspiration to us all!

(Btw, you mention posting your responses to a website. I am trusting of course

that you will remember that you may not do so without permission of the

originator of the message. I just mention that in passing, since you sound

distressed and might have overlooked that bit, okay? Just a gentle reminder.)

Best of luck whatever you decide. Post again soon?

Pat ;=) (Moderator - )

October 16, 2004

Hi ExistingHuman,

You write " I also feel very badly for my child who has been a vegan for as

long

as he can remember. I have tried to explain to him why we choose this

lifestyle but I know he still feels like an outsider in so many

situations. ... and I just don't know if the immense amount of inconvenience

my family

and I have gone through is worth the amount of good we are doing. "

As a Mom of 3 kids, I recognize how hard it is to go up against the

continuous temptations around. For me, at times, it is exhausting to

constantly deny

my kids things that they see other kids smiling over -- cheetos, pizza, etc.

Or while out and about, I dream of how nice it would be if there were

convenient restaurants or vending machines that had yummy, healthful, whole raw

foods

so that my kids could enjoy the thrill they see their friends seeming to

have.

But as I look at their friends, what I see is astounding. I see sadly

overweight, lethargic, depressed individuals. At ages 5, 10, 15, they are

addicted to enormous quantities of food, on drugs for depression or ADD, too

moody to

enjoy running around to play. It's extremely sad to see.

One of my own children, now age 7, was diagnosed 6 years ago with asthma

while we were lacto-ovo vegetarian. Doctors told her to take steroids and

inhalants. We went off dairy and became raw-vegans, and now she needs no

medication and can effortlessly run up hills and be around cats that previously

would

trigger an asthma attack.

At times my kids feel like outsiders, it's true. But when I think about

what they're outside of -- obesity, depression, lethargy, lack of clarity of

thought -- as a parent, I feel so proud that I am maintaining the effort to have

healthy kids. They are so worth it. My kids are fit, have great critical

thinking skills and like themselves. And as adults, they will be more

prepared to make healthy choices or, at least, know how to find health, should

they

wish to experiment with other foods if they choose to.

It has really helped my kids to participate in events that support our

efforts. Going to the Raw Festival in Portland, my kids found playmates with

whom

they enjoyed being themselves. Meeting others in our area has helped too.

Also, indulging in exotic foods has helped my kids feel like being raw-vegan

is a special treat. We make treats at home and take them with us whenever we

know that we'll be with folks who will have junk food so that my kids will be

partaking in a special treat, too.

We've poured through recipes so that my family can pick some things that

satisfy any craving possible.

I respect your reaching out for support. I hope you find some of this

useful.

Best wishes as you wrestle with your dilemma.

Jocelyn

October 16, 2004

>For some reason lately I have been questioning

>veganism more. I know my husband has as well.

Exist,

There are many reasons for pursuing a vegan diet: animal rights,

health, the environment, and religious reasons. It sounds like your

focus has been primarily animal rights, to help the animals. I,

personally, began my journey towards this diet while focusing on

health. I discovered giving up dairy, other animal products and,

later, cooked foods, improved my health and eliminated illnesses and

the medications doctors prescribed. While I may have begun and

continued my diet journey for health, I embrace the other aspects of

the consequences of my food choices. I continue to be in far better

health than when I was consuming animal products. I recognize that

for every year I am vegan there may be hundreds of animals that were

not killed because of my diet choices. In addition, there are no

animals suffering as a result of my consuming animal milk. No cows

have to be artificially inseminated or calves that are taken from

their mothers so that I may have the milk.

Please recognize there may be many layers of benefits to the animals,

your health, and the environment as a result of your choices. There

is even less pollution as a result of avoiding " foods " that require

lots of grains and water, etc. to feed them, so that they may feed

humans. It is very inefficient.

I also recognize that our bodies were not designed to eat the foods

most people eat today. We only began eating larger quantities of

flesh foods when we began raising animals for food thousands of years

ago. Previous to that we likely only began incorporating more flesh

foods after discovering weapons and tools. Prior to that we consumed

predominantly raw plant-based foods. Perhaps some insects or grubs.

Maybe small, injured or diseased animals. Maybe " road kill " when an

elephant would step on something! From an instinctive point of

view (not that any of us today are that closely in touch with

instincts) biting into an animal is in no way appetizing to me.

Similarly, taking a drink from under a cow, goat or sheep is also not

too appetizing to me. I recognize that milk is " mother's milk " ,

created specifically for the infants of a species.

Regarding raw foods, our ancestors would have begun cooking food some

time after they discovered how to use fire. Fire likely would have

been used primarily for warmth. In relation to evolution since

beginning times, fire was only a very recent discovery. We know from

digestive leucocytosis, that our body has an immune response when we

eat cooked food, but not to raw natural foods. This means our bodies

are defending themselves from the effects of cooked foods, whatever

they may be. Also consider that among the tens of thousands of

identified species of animals on the planet, we are the only one that

cooks its food. Cooking probably began as climate changes or

migration to northern climates put us in situations where we either

cooked our foods or ate " frozen dinners. " The colder climates likely

also caused us to consume more flesh foods, though not ideal (IMHO).

,

>I have opened myself up

>to the possibility of eating dairy products... entertaining so many

>delicious possibilities for food choices

If you are looking for more eating possibilities then, certainly,

there are more possibilities when you include more ingredients. It

sounds like you are mainly concerned with dairy and not other " foods "

that vegans avoid. I've found I have

been able to create lots of dairy-like foods using cashews, coconut

cream and milk, and other nut milks. Nuts and seeds can make

wonderful dips and " seed cheeses " . (though different textures) Many

recipes are simple, just as many meals are simple, so do not take a

lot of time. There are gourmet vegan dishes to make, just as SAD

chefs can make complicated gourmet dishes or simple ones.

>there is no way to prevent contributing to animal cruelty because just about

>every material possession we have probably in some way caused a living

>being to suffer or die.

>...I don't want to be part of the

>uncaring people who take part in their suffering but I don't believe I

>can avoid it anyway...

It actually is possible to avoid animal cruelty, if that is your

wish, but every step you take, and have taken, brings relief to

suffering on the planet. If you buy a car that has a part that

contains some rubber that contains an animal product, I suggest that

is still far better than owning that car and eating animal products.

If you have ever doubted your contribution as a vegan, I assure you

you are making a wonderful contribution. I'm sure the animals you

have benefited would thank you if they had a voice to speak with.

>I also feel very badly for my child who has been a vegan for as long

>as he can remember. I have tried to explain to him why we choose this

>lifestyle but I know he still feels like an outsider in so many

>situations. I know that sometimes in life, we have to sacrifice for

>the greater good... I just don't know how much good I'm really doing

>and I just don't know if the immense amount of inconvenience my family

>and I have gone through is worth the amount of good we are doing.

I have never considered my diet as inconvenient. It is just the way I

eat to maintain a more optimal health and the way I live to live up

to more of my fullest potential. I could choose to go back to

including animal products, just as I could choose to lower my

potential. Animal products brought me illnesses. I have no reason to

believe they would not return if I returned to previous diets. The

inconveniences I experience are simply the costs to my lifestyle. I

recognize we are also setting examples to others. People are often

resistant to change and may not like to see others doing things

differently. As our numbers increase we become more accepted. Sorry

if you or your child have had difficulties. The numbers of

vegetarians is increasing around the world. " Flexitarians " are also

on the rise. Schools are including vegan and vegetarian options more

and more. Schools across the country (and world) are eliminating

vending machines, fried foods, and sugary foods. Things may be slow

to change, but they are changing.

You may want to consider stopping by one of our potlucks

(http://www.rawseattle.org) Potlucks offer community for people

looking for a healthful environment with great foods. You can also

ask people for their insights and share your own.

Jeff

October 17, 2004

Hello,

I will contribute my perspective to this great question. A few years

ago I went to meet someone I had met at a singles site. When we met

we talked some about health. I said that I was vegan and she got

very uncomfortable. She wanted to separate from me shortly

thereafter and said that to be socialable you need to be able to eat

ice cream. I responded by saying that if you knew what was in ice

cream, you wouldn't want to eat it. Many commercial ice creams have

antifreeze in them. You feed that to an animal and it will kill it,

yet Americans eat it all the time when they eat ice cream (not to

mention all the other things that are in ice cream). And that is

just the start. If conformity and acceptance comes at the price of

putting poison into my body, I'd rather be different. To me it's all

what you focus on. You can focus on the uncomfortable aspects of

being vegan, or you can focus on the benefits of being vegan. We cam

tell people we're not scared about getting cancer, heart disease,

diabetes, the flu, or just simple aches and pains that come with

age. I would much rather have a happy healthy life in my senior

years like Jack LaLanne than be in a nursing home somewhere.

People don't enjoy being sick. That's the time they are most open to

making changes in their lifestyle so that won't get sick again. If

they see a consistent healthy lifestyle and its benefits in you, they

may come to you for advice on health. For me, that is one of the

great benefits of being different.

Also, it is much easier to be happy when you are healthy. So why you

may feel you fit it better by conforming, your health will decline

and you will lose the capacity for an optimum state of health--mind,

body and spirit.

Ron Koenig

RawSeattle , " sometimesimcold "

<thatisthequestion@g...> wrote:

>

> Hi all.

>

> I am an adult woman with a child and husband. We have all been

vegans

> for many years. For some reason lately I have been questioning

> veganism more. I know my husband has as well.

> That's why I've decided to join all kinds of mailing lists to get

all

> kinds of perspectives on concerns or just feelings I have been

having.

> I will then post all relevant responses on a website if anyone is

> interested.

>

October 17, 2004

Ron,

I would much rather have a happy healthy life in my senior

years like Jack LaLanne than be in a nursing home somewhere.

Amen. My mom is in a nursing home right now, dying of Alzheimer's which

started in her mid 70s. It is a horrible way to go.

But FWIW, Jack LaLanne is not a vegan, and not a strict vegetarian either. He

eats eggs and occasional fish.

I doubt that " ExistingHuman " is talking about conforming by eating at KFC and

McDonald's; more likely, she is just questioning whether she needs to be 100%

vegan. Examples like Jack LaLanne, Norman Walker and many others make it

pretty clear that if your motivation is only physical health, you don't.

Mark

People don't enjoy being sick. That's the time they are most open to

making changes in their lifestyle so that won't get sick again. If

they see a consistent healthy lifestyle and its benefits in you, they

may come to you for advice on health. For me, that is one of the

great benefits of being different.

Also, it is much easier to be happy when you are healthy. So why you

may feel you fit it better by conforming, your health will decline

and you will lose the capacity for an optimum state of health--mind,

body and spirit.

Ron Koenig

RawSeattle , " sometimesimcold "

<thatisthequestion@g...> wrote:

October 17, 2004

Hi ExistingHuman,

i would recommend you to read this article about veganizm:

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html

and also get in library books Maker's diet - http://www.makersdiet.com/

and Body Ecology Diet - http://www.bodyecologydiet.com/pages_new/BED_book.html

Ron, ice cream is junk food, you don't have to be vegan in order to stop eating

junk food.

here is about kefir links i mentioned before:

http://www.growyouthful.com/toc11kefir.php

http://www.innovations-report.de/html/berichte/medizin_gesundheit/bericht-15161.\

html

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/Makekefir.html

http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/kefir-faq.html

love and blessings,

viola

sometimesimcold <thatisthequestion wrote: