Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Hi allAnyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a concience clause is "reasonable". I always thought that no-one would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve directly handling the nefarious products.Anyway, anyone any ideas?PeaceKev:-( How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Photos. Get Photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Contact CAB and possibly Michael Mansfield's law firm (maybe through Viva!) hth Mike On Behalf Of kev maher19 September 2005 19:16Veganuk Vegans & Jobseekers allowance Hi allAnyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a concience clause is "reasonable". I always thought that no-one would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve directly handling the nefarious products.Anyway, anyone any ideas?PeaceKev:-( How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Photos. Get Photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Hiya Kev, I bet they can make even bigger exceptions if it was religious grounds! Hopefully the adjudication decision will go your way, but if it doesn't it would be pretty shocking and I'm sure you could turn it into something good as it sounds like one of those stories you here about in the media... But if it comes to it, can't you just leave the vegan clause out and if ever such a job is offered to you, then just make sure you fail the interview. Cheers, James - kev maher Veganuk Monday, September 19, 2005 7:16 PM Vegans & Jobseekers allowance Hi allAnyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a concience clause is "reasonable". I always thought that no-one would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve directly handling the nefarious products.Anyway, anyone any ideas?PeaceKev:-( How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Photos. Get Photos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 You could try quoting the European Human Rights Act, referring to: ARTICLE 3 -No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. It could be argued that being forced to state that your are willing to work in an environment or for a firm that you found morally repugnant merely in order to receive state benefits constitutes degrading treatment. ARTICLE 4 - No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour. For the purpose of this article the term forced or compulsory labour' shall not include: (a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of detention imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this Convention or during conditional release from such detention; (b) any service of a military character or, in case of conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, service exacted instead of compulsory military service; © any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity threatening the life or well-being of the community; (d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations. It has not yet been clarified whether being forced to work in certain circumstances in order to obtain state benefits constitutes a breach of this article or not. ARTICLE 9 Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This is the obvious one, and it could be argued that forcing you to declare that you are willing to work for such a company in order to receive state benefits is not necessary in a democratic society etc etc. Hope this helps. I am currently trying to find out if the reverse situation can be applied - ie those of us that work for DWP should not have to help butchers and other abusers fill their workplaces with jobseekers - but I think that's a different and possibly harder battle! Mike - Michael Benis Monday, September 19, 2005 7:36 PM RE: Vegans & Jobseekers allowance Contact CAB and possibly Michael Mansfield's law firm (maybe through Viva!) hth Mike On Behalf Of kev maher19 September 2005 19:16Veganuk Vegans & Jobseekers allowance Hi allAnyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a concience clause is "reasonable". I always thought that no-one would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve directly handling the nefarious products.Anyway, anyone any ideas?PeaceKev:-( How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Photos. Get Photos Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release 9/16/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 The problem is that to get this enforced you would have to take the DoE to judicial review at the high court which would be expensive and time-consuming and would have no guarantee of success. The DoE would fight it tooth and nail as they would not want to " open up the floodgates " (their perception, not mine) as far as people refusing to do particular types of job on ethical grounds. I'd love to see it happen but it's not for the faint-hearted. Paul On 19 Sep 2005, at 20:35, sisterv wrote: > You could try quoting the European Human Rights Act, referring to: > > ARTICLE 3 -No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or > degrading treatment or punishment. > It could be argued that being forced to state that your are willing > to work in an environment or for a firm that you found morally > repugnant merely in order to receive state benefits constitutes > degrading treatment. > > ARTICLE 4 - No one shall be required to perform forced or > compulsory labour. For the purpose of this article the term forced > or compulsory labour' shall not include: > (a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of > detention imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this > Convention or during conditional release from such detention; > (b) any service of a military character or, in case of > conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, > service exacted instead of compulsory military service; > © any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity > threatening the life or well-being of the community; > (d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations. > > > It has not yet been clarified whether being forced to work in > certain circumstances in order to obtain state benefits constitutes > a breach of this article or not. > > ARTICLE 9 > Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and > religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or > belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and > in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in > worship, teaching, practice and observance. > Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only > to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a > democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the > protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of > the rights and freedoms of others. > This is the obvious one, and it could be argued that forcing you to > declare that you are willing to work for such a company in order to > receive state benefits is not necessary in a democratic society etc > etc. > > Hope this helps. I am currently trying to find out if the reverse > situation can be applied - ie those of us that work for DWP should > not have to help butchers and other abusers fill their workplaces > with jobseekers - but I think that's a different and possibly > harder battle! > Mike > > > - > Michael Benis > > Monday, September 19, 2005 7:36 PM > RE: Vegans & Jobseekers allowance > > Contact CAB and possibly Michael Mansfield's law firm (maybe > through Viva!) > > hth > > Mike > > On > Behalf Of kev maher > 19 September 2005 19:16 > Veganuk > Vegans & Jobseekers allowance > > Hi all > Anyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers > Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to > sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any > benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan > and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement > has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a > concience clause is " reasonable " . I always thought that no-one > would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I > have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at > Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a > valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local > meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve > directly handling the nefarious products. > Anyway, anyone any ideas? > Peace > Kev > :-( > > How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps > for FREE with Photos. Get Photos > > > > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: > 9/16/2005 > > > ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, > there may be another side to the story you have not heard. > --------------------------- > Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> > Un: send a blank message to - > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 20, 2005 Report Share Posted September 20, 2005 You are of course right Paul, it would take a high court review in order to have the Act legally examined in relation to this case. However, the purpose of challenging it this way in the local job centre would be to have the decision of the frontline staff re-examined by a senior grade, and should their decision also go against the vegan standpoint, to appeal it within the DWP appeals structure. I'm not sure that there is a fixed viewpoint on this within the Department, and it would seem like local officers are applying their own judgement. Such people are not trained in these areas (ie legal issues) and so are left being open to making ill-informed decisions. Higher grades usually have a greater sensitivity about these issues due to the humiliation of making a wrong call, and tend to work within legal frameworks a little more. The Appeals process is independent, but is much like tossing a coin in the air at times... However, this is surely not a new problem, and other vegans / vegetarians must have encountered similar problems in the past - anyone any idea how they were resolved? I will try and find out a bit more when I am next in work, but that won't be for a few days as I'm on leave at the moment. Mike - Paul Russell Monday, September 19, 2005 9:53 PM Re: Vegans & Jobseekers allowance The problem is that to get this enforced you would have to take the DoE to judicial review at the high court which would be expensive and time-consuming and would have no guarantee of success. The DoE would fight it tooth and nail as they would not want to "open up the floodgates" (their perception, not mine) as far as people refusing to do particular types of job on ethical grounds. I'd love to see it happen but it's not for the faint-hearted.PaulOn 19 Sep 2005, at 20:35, sisterv wrote:> You could try quoting the European Human Rights Act, referring to:>> ARTICLE 3 -No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or > degrading treatment or punishment.> It could be argued that being forced to state that your are willing > to work in an environment or for a firm that you found morally > repugnant merely in order to receive state benefits constitutes > degrading treatment.>> ARTICLE 4 - No one shall be required to perform forced or > compulsory labour. For the purpose of this article the term forced > or compulsory labour' shall not include:> (a) any work required to be done in the ordinary course of > detention imposed according to the provisions of Article 5 of this > Convention or during conditional release from such detention;> (b) any service of a military character or, in case of > conscientious objectors in countries where they are recognized, > service exacted instead of compulsory military service;> © any service exacted in case of an emergency or calamity > threatening the life or well-being of the community;> (d) any work or service which forms part of normal civic obligations.>>> It has not yet been clarified whether being forced to work in > certain circumstances in order to obtain state benefits constitutes > a breach of this article or not.>> ARTICLE 9> Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and > religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or > belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and > in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in > worship, teaching, practice and observance.> Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only > to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a > democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the > protection of public order, health or morals, or the protection of > the rights and freedoms of others.> This is the obvious one, and it could be argued that forcing you to > declare that you are willing to work for such a company in order to > receive state benefits is not necessary in a democratic society etc > etc.>> Hope this helps. I am currently trying to find out if the reverse > situation can be applied - ie those of us that work for DWP should > not have to help butchers and other abusers fill their workplaces > with jobseekers - but I think that's a different and possibly > harder battle!> Mike>>> -> Michael Benis> > Monday, September 19, 2005 7:36 PM> RE: Vegans & Jobseekers allowance>> Contact CAB and possibly Michael Mansfield's law firm (maybe > through Viva!)>> hth>> Mike>> On > Behalf Of kev maher> 19 September 2005 19:16> Veganuk> Vegans & Jobseekers allowance>> Hi all> Anyone Know the position vis a vis Vegans and the Jobseekers > Allowance. My adviser at Darwen JobCentre Plus has refused to > sign my Jobseekers Agreement (thereby making me ineligable for any > benefits whatsover) as I have a clause in there saying I am Vegan > and therefore will not work in slaughterhouses etc The agreement > has gone to adjudication for a decision as to whether such a > concience clause is "reasonable". I always thought that no-one > would be forced to apply for positions they find immoral, (but I > have been told on several occasions by certain members of staff at > Darwen JobCentre that, in their opinion, being a Vegan is not a > valid reason for refusing to apply for jobs in the office at local > meat packing plants and leather processers, only jobs which involve > directly handling the nefarious products.> Anyway, anyone any ideas?> Peace> Kev> :-(>> How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps > for FREE with Photos. Get Photos>>> > > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release > 9/16/2005>>> ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author,> there may be another side to the story you have not heard.> ---------------------------> Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>> Un: send a blank message to - > >>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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