Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance latest update

[Guest guest]

They're basically taking the piss here! Ask them what relevance their questions have to your refusal to support the leather industry, and if they would ask the same questions of a hindu for example. Get in touch with your local MP if s/he is likely to be supportive (Jobcentres go into panic mode when they get MP letters) and write to the Independent / Guardian with a copy of their ridculous questions - might just be the sort of article they decide to run a story on cos it attacks the govt, the civil service and general bureacracy in one fell swoop :-)

 

 

 

-

James Hodgskiss

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:05 PM

Re: Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance Latest Update

 

Personally, I'd explain to them that the definition of veganism isn't to feel queasy around meat and leather, but to not contribute to the suffering of animals - be it eating meat, wearing leather or help sell leather settees.

 

I would also say that I buy all my groceries from health food shops, just in case they say something like "Well, if you shop at/support a supermarket that sells ostrich meat, then you can work at a furnature store that sells leather."

 

Good luck with it. Whichever way the next turn goes, I'm sure you can end up making a significant difference to the way they think.

 

Cheers,

James

 

-

kev maher

lancasveg ; Veganuk

Monday, November 28, 2005 12:08 PM

[Norton AntiSpam] Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance Latest Update

 

 

 

Hi all

Things are beginning to move again

 

Recieved another communication (at last) from the adjudicator regarding my refusal to apply for a position in a furnature store (Home Design) who sell leather setees etc. Amongst the questions I have been asked are the following

 

Is your lifestyle such that you avoid all contact, direct or indirect, with leather?

 

If yes, how do you handle mixing with people who may be wearing leather shoes?

 

How do you cope using public transport when other passengers may have animal products about their person?

 

Where do you do your shopping?

 

How do you cope shopping when products on display are contrary to your views?

 

The communication also contains questions relating to my voluntary work at the local Hospice.

 

 

However, at least there is some good news, my refusal of employment at Brookhouse Patterns, who manufacture componants used in military aircraft has been accepted on the grounds of my pacifism.

 

Watch this space for further updates

 

Peace

Kev

:-)

..

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I think the MP thing is a good idea. But as for the Independent / Guardian readers (the general public), wouldn't they have the same ignorance/ridicule towards veganism as Kev's job centre?

 

If only veganism was a religion...

 

-

sisterv

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:35 PM

[Norton AntiSpam] Re: Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance Latest Update

 

 

They're basically taking the piss here! Ask them what relevance their questions have to your refusal to support the leather industry, and if they would ask the same questions of a hindu for example. Get in touch with your local MP if s/he is likely to be supportive (Jobcentres go into panic mode when they get MP letters) and write to the Independent / Guardian with a copy of their ridculous questions - might just be the sort of article they decide to run a story on cos it attacks the govt, the civil service and general bureacracy in one fell swoop :-)

 

 

 

-

James Hodgskiss

Monday, November 28, 2005 10:05 PM

Re: Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance Latest Update

 

Personally, I'd explain to them that the definition of veganism isn't to feel queasy around meat and leather, but to not contribute to the suffering of animals - be it eating meat, wearing leather or help sell leather settees.

 

I would also say that I buy all my groceries from health food shops, just in case they say something like "Well, if you shop at/support a supermarket that sells ostrich meat, then you can work at a furnature store that sells leather."

 

Good luck with it. Whichever way the next turn goes, I'm sure you can end up making a significant difference to the way they think.

 

Cheers,

James

 

-

kev maher

lancasveg ; Veganuk

Monday, November 28, 2005 12:08 PM

[Norton AntiSpam] Vegans and Jobseekers Allowance Latest Update

 

 

 

Hi all

Things are beginning to move again

 

Recieved another communication (at last) from the adjudicator regarding my refusal to apply for a position in a furnature store (Home Design) who sell leather setees etc. Amongst the questions I have been asked are the following

 

Is your lifestyle such that you avoid all contact, direct or indirect, with leather?

 

If yes, how do you handle mixing with people who may be wearing leather shoes?

 

How do you cope using public transport when other passengers may have animal products about their person?

 

Where do you do your shopping?

 

How do you cope shopping when products on display are contrary to your views?

 

The communication also contains questions relating to my voluntary work at the local Hospice.

 

 

However, at least there is some good news, my refusal of employment at Brookhouse Patterns, who manufacture componants used in military aircraft has been accepted on the grounds of my pacifism.

 

Watch this space for further updates

 

Peace

Kev

:-)

..

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi all, Oh well, the decision has come back from the adjudicator and I have lost this stage; (there is still an appeal to an independent tribunal). There appear to be two main reasons for this decision; Firstly, like most, if not all Vegans I still wear the leather and woollen items obtained before becoming Vegan, replacements being non-animal; this has been used against me. To quote the adjudicator's decision: "Although Mr. Maher now chooses to be vegan and supposedly objects to the use of animal products he still wears a leather belt and woollen clothing. Therefore I submit he now merely objects in principle to the

use of animal products and does not conscientiously object" Secondly there is the application of the House of Lords decision in Janaway v Salford Health Authority [1989] AC, [1988] 3 All ER 1079 (HL). This case involved a Christian who was dismissed from employment as a doctor's receptionist/secretary for refusing to carry out the paperwork relating to abortions, citing Section 4 of the 1967 Abortion Act which allows for conscientious objection. Here the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords held that the clause only applies to those who carry out the operation, i.e. operating theatre staff. Again to quote the adjudicator's decision: "...Clarification of the decision in the case of Janaway v Salford Health Authority in 1988, which stated that in order

to claim conscientious exemption under Section 4 of the Act, the objector had to be required to take part in administering treatment in a hospital or approved centre. Refusal to participate in the paperwork or administration connected with abortion procedures also lies outside the terms of the conscience clause. Therefore both Houses of Parliament have clearly agreed that Mr. Maher cannot show that he has good cause for failing to apply for the administrative role of Office Assistant at Home Designs" The adjudicator's decision goes on to say that "The evidence shows that Mr Maher cannot have a sincerely held objection to working at Home Design therefore a sanction must apply" Watch this space for developments Peace Kev :-)

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[Guest guest]

Hi Kev, Thanks for the update even though the outcome is shite! Good Luck ( have you contacted the vegan society over this?) The Valley Vegan...............kev maher <deadheadkev_darwen wrote: Hi all, Oh well, the decision has come back from the adjudicator and I have lost this stage; (there is still an appeal to an independent tribunal). There appear to be two main reasons for this decision; Firstly, like most, if not all Vegans I still wear the leather and woollen items obtained before

becoming Vegan, replacements being non-animal; this has been used against me. To quote the adjudicator's decision: "Although Mr. Maher now chooses to be vegan and supposedly objects to the use of animal products he still wears a leather belt and woollen clothing. Therefore I submit he now merely objects in principle to the use of animal products and does not conscientiously object" Secondly there is the application of the House of Lords decision in Janaway v Salford Health Authority [1989] AC, [1988] 3 All ER 1079 (HL). This case involved a Christian who was dismissed from employment as a doctor's receptionist/secretary for refusing to carry out the paperwork relating to abortions, citing Section 4 of the 1967

Abortion Act which allows for conscientious objection. Here the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords held that the clause only applies to those who carry out the operation, i.e. operating theatre staff. Again to quote the adjudicator's decision: "...Clarification of the decision in the case of Janaway v Salford Health Authority in 1988, which stated that in order to claim conscientious exemption under Section 4 of the Act, the objector had to be required to take part in administering treatment in a hospital or approved centre. Refusal to participate in the paperwork or administration connected with abortion procedures also lies outside the terms of the conscience clause. Therefore both Houses of Parliament have clearly agreed that Mr. Maher cannot show that he has good cause for failing to apply for the administrative role of Office Assistant at Home Designs" The

adjudicator's decision goes on to say that "The evidence shows that Mr Maher cannot have a sincerely held objection to working at Home Design therefore a sanction must apply" Watch this space for developments Peace Kev :-) Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Peter H

 

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[Guest guest]

Hello Kevin,

 

I have just joined this group. I would like to share with you my

experience. I was desperate for money at one point several years ago

and I was offered a 3 week stint in an office by a family member at a

meat packing factory (that or have my then unemployment money

stopped). I obviously did not want the job, but it was only for 3 weeks

and I wasn't a committed vegan at that point (I don't mean to add any

religious meaning to that statement!) The job would only entail dealing

with recycling of paperwork and end of year filing. I could cope with

that even though I disagreed with the principal of the company.

 

I then had the interview and I was questioned why I said " I didn't want to

know " when the guard at the gate was complaining to everyone who

entered the factory that the slaughter machinery wasn't working and

there was a delay or something. I can't remember, but this bit of

information about me saying " I don't want to know " was forwarded to

the interviewer and used as the first of many questions like " do you

have a problem with meat etc " I said that I was just going to work for 3

weeks doing recycling paper so meat wouldnt bother me at all as I

would not be in contact with it.

 

Then I was probed about if I was an " activist " and I said " no " and then

the bombshell. I said I was a member of the vegan society a few years

ago. I was immediately told to leave the room and he said he was

phoning the police to check to see if I had a criminal record of

sabotage!! I have never even returned a library book late let alone

sabotage! My uncle and all the people at the factory who knew me

were interogated too! They were told that if I ever came on the

premises again they would be disciplined.

 

In short Kev, mention you are vegan in interviews and I am sure in

nearly every situation they won't want to employ you if the job involves

meat at least. It isn't failing the interview, it is their decision. They will

probably want nothing to do with you if you pose a " risk " . It's pathetic.

 

I wish you the very best of luck. Everyone should have the opportunity

to work at a job which is in harmony with their morals and beliefs.

 

~koshien~

[Guest guest]

Wow, that's unbelievable! Paranoid or what?! And if you were there

for 'sabotage' you wouldn't have said you were a memeber of the Vegan

Society a few years back! They really did sound paranoid. Guilty

conscience perhaps?

 

That sounds like good advice to Kevin, anyway - in an interview let

slip that you're a vegan and into animal rights. See them refuse you

employment quicker than you can blink!

 

 

, " koshienivy " <koshienivy> wrote:

>

> Hello Kevin,

>

> I have just joined this group. I would like to share with you my

> experience.

[Guest guest]

, " gothcatz " <gothcatz> wrote:

>

> Wow, that's unbelievable! Paranoid or what?! And if you were there

> for 'sabotage' you wouldn't have said you were a memeber of the Vegan

> Society a few years back! They really did sound paranoid. Guilty

> conscience perhaps?

>

> That sounds like good advice to Kevin, anyway - in an interview let

> slip that you're a vegan and into animal rights. See them refuse you

> employment quicker than you can blink!

>

Hi all

This does not work. I did that at the leather furnature store and

landed myself in the s**t: Conduct which would ensure I (or anyone

else for that matter) would not be employed is a legal justification

for sanction.

The issue regarding the statutory interpretation of the concience

clause in the 1995 Jobseekers Act in the light of Janaway is in the

latest appeal stage and I am awaiting a tribunal date. My appeal will

be based around the follwing aspects of the decision which were ignored

by the adjudicator; Although Mrs Janaway failed in her wrongful

dismissal case, the House Of Lords also held the the concience clause

in the 1967 Abortion Act did apply to those admin staff empolyed before

the passage of the Act, for those employed after the passage it would

be reasonable to assume that they may have to carry out such paperwork,

and so should establish this before commencing employment. My (long

ago, Lancaster 1996) Law Student Head interpretation of this being that

I, and others who have a concientious objection are covered.

 

Belated Solstice Greetings and will post any developments when I get

chance. (Rely on the local Puiblic Access Point for 90% of my Internet

access and they are closing for the holidays, the other 10% or so being

at friends who are going away for a few days.

 

Peace

Kev

:-)

>

> , " koshienivy " <koshienivy> wrote:

> >

> > Hello Kevin,

> >

> > I have just joined this group. I would like to share with you my

> > experience.

>