Guest guest Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 Hi Lesley, Glad to hear I'm not alone in not thinking it right for people to have the choice to eat animals. As for the fascist bit, well, that was me being a bit tongue in cheek. Perhaps militant would be a better word. John - " Lesley Dove " <Lesley Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:55 AM RE: Not cheezly > Like you I don't support people having the choice to kill and eat animals, > it annoys me a bit how some vegans do support that choice (obviously not > as > much as animal eaters annoy me and I respect anyone pretty much if they > are > vegan). That for me says they do not really believe in animal rights, only > human choices to be kind or not. Actually if ppl wanted to eat animals > after > a natural death, I would think it was pretty revolting but I would have no > real ethical problem with it, it's the killing not the eating that is > wrong. > > > > You are not fascist, I actually have to object that you would use that > word > describing your viewpoint (and mine), those who support killing animals > for > food are closer to fascists than we could ever be if the word has to come > into it (and I would prefer not to use it anyway). > > > > I think bulgur is the same as cous-cous maybe? > > > > I'd agree with everything you said about analogues and their usefulness. > > > > Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I don't like to call myself militant or " extreme " in my views, I say " consistent " or at least that I aim to be consistent. It doesn't have such negative connotations as militant. I am trying to use only positive language in describing my views, the other day someone said my view of not wanting animals used for food in any way was extreme. This was a meat-eater who had no doubt only ever heard wishy washy vegetarians or " more ethical " meat-eaters talking reformist talk about switching to free range meat, eggs and organic milk - he had never come across a total abolitionist vegan before. I responded yes, extremely compassionate and consistent, I am proud of being vegan. In other ways I am not a confident person but this is one thing that gives me added confidence in myself, knowing I am doing the right thing. I always feel that we are less likely to convince others of veganism if we come across in any way apologetic or self-deprecating, or lacking in confidence that we are perfectly reasonable in our thinking. Lesley _____ On Behalf Of John Davis 29 November 2006 09:49 Re: Not cheezly Hi Lesley, Glad to hear I'm not alone in not thinking it right for people to have the choice to eat animals. As for the fascist bit, well, that was me being a bit tongue in cheek. Perhaps militant would be a better word. John - " Lesley Dove " <Lesley (AT) vegan4life (DOT) <Lesley%40vegan4life.org.uk> org.uk> <@ <%40> .com> Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:55 AM RE: Not cheezly > Like you I don't support people having the choice to kill and eat animals, > it annoys me a bit how some vegans do support that choice (obviously not > as > much as animal eaters annoy me and I respect anyone pretty much if they > are > vegan). That for me says they do not really believe in animal rights, only > human choices to be kind or not. Actually if ppl wanted to eat animals > after > a natural death, I would think it was pretty revolting but I would have no > real ethical problem with it, it's the killing not the eating that is > wrong. > > > > You are not fascist, I actually have to object that you would use that > word > describing your viewpoint (and mine), those who support killing animals > for > food are closer to fascists than we could ever be if the word has to come > into it (and I would prefer not to use it anyway). > > > > I think bulgur is the same as cous-cous maybe? > > > > I'd agree with everything you said about analogues and their usefulness. > > > > Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2006 Report Share Posted November 29, 2006 I'm surprised if people like us are not in the majority among vegans really. We vegans should really try not to shy away from stating that we are for the abolition of the use of animals as food. We live what we believe, so why should we not be upfront what we believe? It's not that scary a concept when people see how we all manage to eat well. Vegan food fayres are a very good way of doing this, and getting more vegan food included in mainstream events. This is what I am working on at my kids' schools parents association events. I believe it is Lee Hall who has written about encouraging vegans not to shy away from being abolitionists, I've read a few things about her, and largely agree with her. Lesley _____ On Behalf Of John Davis 29 November 2006 09:49 Re: Not cheezly Hi Lesley, Glad to hear I'm not alone in not thinking it right for people to have the choice to eat animals. As for the fascist bit, well, that was me being a bit tongue in cheek. Perhaps militant would be a better word. John - " Lesley Dove " <Lesley (AT) vegan4life (DOT) <Lesley%40vegan4life.org.uk> org.uk> <@ <%40> .com> Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:55 AM RE: Not cheezly > Like you I don't support people having the choice to kill and eat animals, > it annoys me a bit how some vegans do support that choice (obviously not > as > much as animal eaters annoy me and I respect anyone pretty much if they > are > vegan). That for me says they do not really believe in animal rights, only > human choices to be kind or not. Actually if ppl wanted to eat animals > after > a natural death, I would think it was pretty revolting but I would have no > real ethical problem with it, it's the killing not the eating that is > wrong. > > > > You are not fascist, I actually have to object that you would use that > word > describing your viewpoint (and mine), those who support killing animals > for > food are closer to fascists than we could ever be if the word has to come > into it (and I would prefer not to use it anyway). > > > > I think bulgur is the same as cous-cous maybe? > > > > I'd agree with everything you said about analogues and their usefulness. > > > > Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 Yes. Bulgur is cracked wheat. On Behalf Of Paul Russell 29 November 2006 08:13 Re: Not cheezly On 28 Nov 2006, at 10:55, Lesley Dove wrote: > > > I think bulgur is the same as cous-cous maybe? > I think bulgur is just a type of wheat (rather chewy), whereas cous cous is essentially tiny bits of pasta, i.e. dried semolina flour. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2006 Report Share Posted November 30, 2006 I haven't read anything by Lee Hall, but although I agree with you in principle, I'm also a realist and veganism isn't the most sustainable diet and If think being an " abolitionist " won't acomplish much in the short term and is quite a naive or " fanatastical " way of thinking. I think all factory farming and DAIRY farming should be banned and encouriging people to eat a plant based diet,- If we lived in a " mostly " vegan world and everybody was 75-80% vegan, I would be happy, Jo - Lesley Dove Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:15 AM RE: Not cheezly I'm surprised if people like us are not in the majority among vegans really. We vegans should really try not to shy away from stating that we are for the abolition of the use of animals as food. We live what we believe, so why should we not be upfront what we believe? It's not that scary a concept when people see how we all manage to eat well. Vegan food fayres are a very good way of doing this, and getting more vegan food included in mainstream events. This is what I am working on at my kids' schools parents association events. I believe it is Lee Hall who has written about encouraging vegans not to shy away from being abolitionists, I've read a few things about her, and largely agree with her. Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2006 Report Share Posted December 1, 2006 I believe I am a realist and that a big problem is that we vegans are not aiming high enough in what we ask people to change in their lives. If we look at how little progress has been made towards animal liberation it is clear that promoting reformist ideas about so-called humane farming has not got us very far, it encourages ppl to believe that they are doing enough by giving up certain animal products and makes them feel less guilty about eating meat and dairy so long as it is from certain less cruel sources, eg RSPCA approved Freedom Food. Would it not be better to simply promote veganism (maybe with vegetarian as a stepping stone for those who feel the need). Vegan Food Fayres actually get to the nitty-gritty of encouraging people to go vegan, they show how easy it can be, as well as leading by example. What do you mean about veganism not being the most sustainable diet? I have to disagree and I don't understand you saying that comment since being vegan uses less land and water than an omni or vegetarian diet, so is more sustainable environmentally. Or did you mean in comparison to raw veganism, in which case you are obviously right since raw does not use the energy needed in cooking! I'm not shy about saying I am an abolitionist when it comes to the use of animals, it does not mean I expect to convert anywhere near everyone, but I'm not going to water down my own ethical position just to appease animal eaters! I'm not pushy with it but if asked I will tell the truth that I want to see us stop using animals and their secretions as food, not just some animals, or animals in certain farming conditions, but animals, completely. Why would dairy be banned and not meat in your mostly vegan world? I'm a bit confused by that, can you elaborate? What about grey areas such as someone keeping a rescued cow and just taking a small amount of milk, while keeping the calf with the cow? Is that actually worse than killing an animal for meat? I do not think I would want another species keeping me and milking me, it would feel like a form of abuse and it's pretty weird, but not as bad as being killed. Lesley _____ On Behalf Of Joanne 30 November 2006 20:34 Re: Not cheezly I haven't read anything by Lee Hall, but although I agree with you in principle, I'm also a realist and veganism isn't the most sustainable diet and If think being an " abolitionist " won't acomplish much in the short term and is quite a naive or " fanatastical " way of thinking. I think all factory farming and DAIRY farming should be banned and encouriging people to eat a plant based diet,- If we lived in a " mostly " vegan world and everybody was 75-80% vegan, I would be happy, Jo - Lesley Dove @ <%40> .com Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:15 AM RE: Not cheezly I'm surprised if people like us are not in the majority among vegans really. We vegans should really try not to shy away from stating that we are for the abolition of the use of animals as food. We live what we believe, so why should we not be upfront what we believe? It's not that scary a concept when people see how we all manage to eat well. Vegan food fayres are a very good way of doing this, and getting more vegan food included in mainstream events. This is what I am working on at my kids' schools parents association events. I believe it is Lee Hall who has written about encouraging vegans not to shy away from being abolitionists, I've read a few things about her, and largely agree with her. Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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