B12

[Guest guest]

Jeff, I love this stuff;<br><br>First of all, let

me stress that anyone who believes they may be B12

deficient should, by all means, take B12.<br><br>I must

question what standard is being used to determine the

requirements of B12, in raw vegans? The only standard that

could possibly exist would be for people eating the SAD

diet. As I see in the study, Vegans B12 levels were

compared to Non vegan levels. However, A person who eats

animal products simply gets more B12. Whether or not

that extra B12 does them any good, however, is

Questionable. Remember the RDA is based on the SAD

diet.<br><br>This Finnland study that you cite, says the " Living

Foodists " were eating " Fermented foods " , I have never heard

of Raw Vegans eating anything but fresh, raw, fruits

and vegetables. Fermented foods are in the prosses of

decay. Putrefactive bacteria, destroy friendly bacteria,

thus inhibiting synthesis of vitamin B12 in the

intestine. <br><br>The whole thing about seaweed or algae

not being able to reverse B12 defecientsy symptoms

was obviously, not tested on raw vegans.<br><br>One

63-year-old vegan with a B12 level of 117 pg/ml (MCV<br> = 86

fl) indicated having some nerve-related disorder. In

other words a 63 year old vegan (not a raw vegan) may

have some nerve-related disorder? I don't think I will

bother with that.<br><br>What about organic vegetables?

T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D., ptofessor of Nutritional

Biochemistry at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y., in a 1994

study in the scientific journal 'Plant and Soil' showed

that barley, soybeans, and spinach grown in soil

enriched with organic fertilizer had significantly higher

levels of B12 than the same plants grown in soil treated

with conventional fertilizer.<br><br>The effect of

vitamin B12 deficientcy is Pernicious Anemia,

characterized by weakness, shortness of breath, and a greatly

decreased number of red corpuscles in the blood. Why, in

all the studies, in all the world, can we not find

ONE raw vegan with Pernicious Anemia?<br><br>Doug

[Guest guest]

This is also this form a hygienic raw food

MD<br><br> " Vitamin B12 deficiency is nothing to sneeze at. I have

multiple<br>patients<br>who have developed neurologic deficits due to B12

deficiency on an<br>unsupplemented vegan diet. Two of these

were young, under 30 years of<br>age, and vegan for

only 6-8 years. They were both unable to walk

due<br>to<br>neurologic damage from B12 deficiency. As someone stated

earlier, a<br>B12<br>level can give you a hint you might

be deficient, but many with B12<br>levels<br>above

200 are deficient too. This is determined by checking

an MMA<br>(methyl melonic acid). Inadequate B12 can

also cause subtle long-term<br>damage with no

symptoms, until the serious irreversible problem<br>arises.

Joel Fuhrman, M.D..

[Guest guest]

& gt; I must question what standard is being used

to determine the requirements of B12, in raw vegans?

The only standard that could possibly exist would be

for people eating the SAD diet. As I see in the

study, Vegans B12 levels were compared to Non vegan

levels. However, A person who eats animal products simply

gets more B12. Whether or not that extra B12 does them

any good, however, is Questionable. Remember the RDA

is based on the SAD diet.<br><br>Not any more as

they know that the old standard for anyone, the serum

B12 test is not valid. However, now they use MMA and

Hcy which is hihgly accurate for anyone. And tests on

vegans even many raw food vegans have shown elevated MMA

and Hcy which is an indicator of B12

defeciency<br><br> & gt; This Finnland study that you cite, says the

" Living Foodists " were eating " Fermented foods " , I have

never heard of Raw Vegans eating anything but fresh,

raw, fruits and vegetables. Fermented foods are in the

prosses of decay. Putrefactive bacteria, destroy friendly

bacteria, thus inhibiting synthesis of vitamin B12 in the

intestine. <br><br>I agree with you about fermented foods

but the reality is alot of raw vegans east fermented

foods like seed cheeses, rejuvalac, raw cabbage etc,

<br><br> & gt; What about organic vegetables? T. Colin Campbell,

Ph.D., ptofessor of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell

University in Ithaca, N.Y., in a 1994 study in the

scientific journal 'Plant and Soil' showed that barley,

soybeans, and spinach grown in soil enriched with organic

fertilizer had significantly higher levels of B12 than the

same plants grown in soil treated with conventional

fertilizer.<br><br>Dr Cambpell has publically admitted to overstating

the results of the study and that the amount of B12

found in the organic spincah was negliable at best.

<br><br> & gt; The effect of vitamin B12 deficientcy is

Pernicious Anemia, characterized by weakness, shortness of

breath, and a greatly decreased number of red corpuscles

in the blood. Why, in all the studies, in all the

world, can we not find ONE raw vegan with Pernicious

Anemia?<br><br>Pernicous anemia is only one end point in B12 defeciency

which also goes through 12 stages. Besides perniicous

anemia, there is irreversible nerve damage and other

nevre related disorders. <br><br>The best thing is for

any raw vegan who has been following the diet for

over 3 yrs to get tested and not serum b12 but MMA and

Hcy.<br><br>ANother group of raw vegans also came up defecient when

tested and you can read about it

here.<br><br><a href=http://www.chetday.com/b12.html

target=new>http://www.chetday.com/b12.html</a><br><br>Jeff

[Guest guest]

Once again you give me evidence of COOKED

FOODISTS being B12 deficient and try to tye it to Raw

Vegans. Joel Furman M.D. mentions nothing about 'raw'

vegans. Putrefactive bacteria destroy friendly bacteria

thus inhibiting synthesis of vitamin B12. Putrefaction

in the intestine is caused by ingesting cooked

animal protein, bad food combining, overeating of any

concentrated protein food,(meat or vegatable) chemical

additives, and medicine. So it becomes obvious how a cooked

food vegan can be B12 deficient.<br><br>I don't care

what system of measurement you use to determine B12

deficiency. You still need a base number to campare it to,

and that base number can not come from anywhere but

the Standard American Diet. Raw vegans are

physiologicly diferent than people who live on SAD. We are more

alkaline, our body temprature is nearly 2 degrees lower, we

have lower heart rates, higher enzyme levels, and on,

and on, and on. To date you still have not shown any

evidence of one raw vegan, having any symptoms of B12

deficiency. The only thing you have, is that our levels, are

lower than your levels.<br><br>I, personaly will put

the worries of B12 deficiency, in the same catagory,

as my worries of being hit by a metorite.

<br><br>Doug

[Guest guest]

a) you are still discussin serum B12 levels which

i agree can be lower in vegans or raw vegans and

not mean there is a problem. BUT i am discussin serum

Hcy and MMA which are accurate measures of b12 def

and they dont care wether you are raw food vegan or

not. <br><br>b)<br>Well perhaps you would heed the

words of doug graham, DC, Pro athlete, and 15 yrs 100%

raw foodist who also found himself b12 defecient many

years as a healthy raw fooder (who would agree 100%

with what I have said). Or the results of dozens of

others who I have personally seen. Or did you skip the

data from HAcres, who eat a 95-100 % raw food diet. Or

go the living foods boards and read about all the

other raw fooders who ended up b12 defecient and the

nursing mother who both her and her child were. Oh Well

<br><br>You can dismiss the issue if you want. Thats fine.

But what would you lose by getting yourself tested

every now and then? Or encourgaing other raw fooders to

get tested.<br><br>If i am wrong You lose nothing.

ANd you prove that you are right,.<br><br>If i am

right, you can to catch a potentially dangerous

situtation early.<br><br>Be Well<br>Jeff N

[Guest guest]

The Barbarians are inside the gates!<br><br> " a)

you are still discussin serum B12 levels which i

agree can be lower in<br> vegans or raw vegans and not

mean there is a problem. BUT i am<br> discussin serum

Hcy and MMA which are accurate measures of b12

def<br> and they dont care wether you are raw food vegan

or not. " <br><br>The problem I have is that they

'don't' care whether you are raw vegan or not. I do not

know about Hcy and MMA, but it must come down to some

kind of numerical equation, that would be 'relative'

to a referance number, that would have to come from

people eating an unnatural diet.<br><br>Just because you

have used your little test to scare a few raw vegans

into taking B12 supplements does not mean you are

right.<br><br>You are right about me having nothing to lose. I

spent my college years contemplating my navel, and

trying to figure out why the Hell Socrates cared about a

couple of chickens. You on the other hand have a lot to

lose. If I am right, you have wasted a lot of time, (20

years?) and money, trying to get people to eat their

Wheaties. In fact dare I say, it would invalidate a large

portion of your life. <br><br>This goes far beyond a

simple debate of, if we should take B12 or not. All the

studies we have posted here, were done by cooked fooders,

trying to find something wrong with the diet of raw

vegans. Not the usual method of starting with a sick

person, and trying to diagnose the problem. <br><br>If we

are right, if raw food is the ultimate diet for

optimum health, (which can not be, if raw vegans need to

suppliment their diet) then the entire drug pushing, meat

eating, blood leting establishment, (which you are a part

of) is wrong. <br><br>If I am wrong then the real

world is wrong. We did not evolve from vegan primates,

and are some kind of freak of nature, with no natural

place in the universe. Truly, a stranger in a strange

land. Or that every wild, raw vegan animal needs B12

supplements.<br><br>Truly; The barbarians are inside the gates.<br><br>Doug

[Guest guest]

& gt; & gt; & gt;What about organic vegetables? T.

Colin Campbell, Ph.D., ptofessor of Nutritional

Biochemistry at Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y., in a 1994

study in the scientific journal 'Plant and Soil' showed

that barley, soybeans, and spinach grown in soil

enriched with organic fertilizer had significantly higher

levels of B12 than the same plants grown in soil treated

with conventional fertilizer.<br><br>AGain, to be

correct. T Colin Campbell is a collegue/friend of mine and

I talk to him often. He did not publish any data on

this or do any studies. All he did was write an

article in his newsletter about the first 2 studies that

were done in 1992, 1994 by a guy named Mozafer. He did

not include data from Mozafars followup article on

the topic in 1997 <br><br>(BTW, by your logic, even

if T Colin did do the study we couldnt trust him

anyway, after all he is a cooked food eating scientist.

)<br><br>But anyway, lets look at what the study

really said and what Dr Campbell really

wrote...<br><br>From a note i sent to him....<br><br>one of your (dr

Campbell's) assistants miscalulated the amount of B12 in

spinach based on this info because he calculated it as

a<br>wet-weight (ie " real food " ) value when in fact Mozafer's

numbers were based on dry weight. So the numbers that are

reported in your newsletter are vastly inflated. In fact,

the amount of B12 in the foods was negligible so that

they were of no practical value. This issue was

discussed on the sci-veg list about three years ago and one

of the members had some personal communication with

Campbell's assistant--the one who made the mistake. It was

an honest mistake that anybody could have made.

However, your web page is still reporting the wrong

numbers.<br><br>I also sent the following to him....<br><br>In a

followup article, Mozafar [1997], Mozafar himself notes

that the amount of B-12 in soils is highly variable

and one cannot rely on produce as a good

supply.<br><br>Just a few more notes from the Mozafer 1997

study...<br><br> & gt;From the 1997 article:<br><br>Q. Is there vitamin B12

in plants or not? A plant nutritionist's

view<br><br>A. Mozafar<br><br>Vegetarian Nutrition, 1997, vol.

1, issue 2, pp. 50-52 <br><br>p.

50:<br><br> " Consequently, soils around the world, because of their

differences in organic matter, type and amount of microbial

activity, are very<br>different in their native vitamin B12

[19]. Soil concentration of B12 may range from 0.2-98

mcg/kg soil [1]. " <br><br>p. 51:<br><br> " Whether the

amount of vitamin B12 present in various plant foods

consumed by people on a vegetarian diet is enough to cover

their<br>needs is difficult to judge, especially since not much

is known about the numerous analogs of this vitamin

in soil and their relative absorption by

plants. " <br><br><br>Mozafar A, Oertli JJ (1992) " Uptake of a

microbially-produced vitamin (B12) by soybean roots. " Plant and Soil,

vol. 139, pp. 23-30.<br><br>Mozafar A (1994)

" Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of

organic fertilizers. " Plant and Soil, vol. 167,<br>pp.

305-311.<br><br>Mozafar A (1997) " Is there vitamin B-12 in plants or not?

A plant nutritionist's view. " Vegetarian Nutrition:

An International Journal, vol. 1, issue 2, pp.

50-52.<br><br>In his last message to me on this topic on 1/17/2000

T Colin Campbell said .... <br> " In his last message

Colin told me that ....<br><br> " I clearly did a poor

job making my point in the original editorial, it

seems, and for this I apologize to all. " <br><br>In

Health<br>Jeff N

[Guest guest]

I can sum up your entire argument with a quote form Chicken Little; " The sky is

falling! The sky is falling!).<br><br>Doug

[Guest guest]

I seem to recall that Vegemite is a good source

for B-12 and that it would be acceptable to vegans,

although it might not qualify as raw? Does anyone know for

sure if that's the case? It seems like a fairly simple

solution to the problem for those who don't consume meat

and especially those who also don't like taking

supplements<br><br>Doug, I signed up for the eZine from Sunfoods. For

those interested, I was unable to link to the

..../index.HTML link in Doug's message. But I did link to

www.sunfoods.net and was able to sign up there. So try that if

you're interested.<br><br>So are there any good methods

to avoiding hybridized foods? It sounds like the

only way is to take long walks in the woods and look

for wild fruit. A person would be pretty darn skinny

doing that in my neck of the woods.<br><br>Mallon

[Guest guest]

>And if you eat Marmite / Vegemite / own brand yeast extract, then you're

>sorted for B12 too! And besides, adults only need a teeny tiny amount of

>B12

>and the liver can store it for ages, so we should be fine!

 

 

The thing is, I sometimes wonder how much vitamin B12 we actually absorb

from these sources. I know there is still a bit more research to be done on

this subject. But on a more positive note, I'm not worried about B12

deficiency because like you say we do only need a small amount in a lifetime

[isn't it less than the size of an aspirin or something?] and B12 deficiency

is so rare anyway. I think it's people who live on a diet of meat and dairy

who really have to worry about their health. I think our health risks

relating to diet are very small compared to theirs.

Dee

 

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[Guest guest]

Niz,

 

What is your view of rejuvalac as a source of B12? I realize a

fermented/aged drink may not be recommended for infants, but may be a

good source for adults.

 

Kombucha also has B12, but I understand has caffeine, so would

probably not be best for a pregnant woman, nursing mother or infant.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

>1. She must supplement with, at a minimum, B12 and Folic acid.

>Does'nt matter how good her diet is. One of the symptoms of B12

>deficiency is " failure to thrive " in babies.

 

 

[Guest guest]

RawSeattle , Jeff Rogers <jeff@t...> wrote:

> Niz,

>

> What is your view of rejuvalac as a source of B12?

 

I don't know Jeff, but if you read Gabriel Cousens' article on the

subject (see message #4290) he recommends suplementation.

 

By the way, if you are going to supplement, take the bio-active form

mythylcobalamin rather the more common and cheaper form

cyanocobalamin which has to be broken down by the body.

 

Niz

[Guest guest]

all B12 is produced by one thing, and one thing only

bacteria....

herbivores have this bacteria in their rumen and intestines, which produce it

for them

we also have this bacteria, unfortunately, it is present in our large intestine,

and too far down the chain as it were, to get absorbed much

 

cheers

fraggle

 

>Message: 8

> Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:06:23 -0000

> " Karen " <karen

>Are humans naturally herbivores?

>

>Jack Norris " wrote: " I do not believe that humans are natural

>herbivores and yet I have been a healthy vegan for 16 years...I think

>humans are naturally omnivorous and without vitamin B12

>supplementation, need some amount of animal products for optimal

>health in order to provide B12. "

>

>Mr. Norris' statements started me thinking about whether the need for

>B12 is what distinguishes herbivores from omnivores. I wonder if the

>other large herbivores (elephants, cows...) need B12, and if so,

>where they get it. I always thought they got it from the soil on the

>plants they eat, but I'm no expert on that.

>

>Interesting argument on the other side, supporting the idea that

>humans are naturally herbivores, is presented by Milton Mills, MD,

>based on comparative anatomy. If interested, you can read his

>conclusions at the following link:

>

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Just found an interesting page on Bupa re B12 deficiency (link below),

seems vegans maybe at risk but not so vegetarians. I shall ask my GP

about it next time I go, thanks for help all.

 

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaemia_b12.html

[Guest guest]

Just found this as well at the vegetarian

society<http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html>I'll print the important

part below:

 

" Vegans are recommended to ensure their diet includes foods fortified with

vitamin B12. A range of B12 fortified foods are available. These include

yeast extracts, Vecon vegetable stock, veggieburger mixes, textured

vegetable protein, soya milks, vegetable and sunflower margarines, and

breakfast cereals. "

 

I get most of mine from Soya milk and Marmite, I also use Pure Soya spread

but I'm not sure if it's fortified, I'll check tonight and let everyone

know.

 

On 20/02/07, Helen <helen wrote:

>

>

> Hi,

>

> Just found an interesting page on Bupa re B12 deficiency (link below),

> seems vegans maybe at risk but not so vegetarians. I shall ask my GP

> about it next time I go, thanks for help all.

>

> http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaemia_b12.html

>

>

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have never taken a b12 suppliment, but I know a loyt of people swear by

them......

 

The Valley Vegan.............

 

Helen <helen wrote:

 

Hi,

 

Just found an interesting page on Bupa re B12 deficiency (link below),

seems vegans maybe at risk but not so vegetarians. I shall ask my GP

about it next time I go, thanks for help all.

 

http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaemia_b12.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peter H

 

 

 

 

To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new

Security Centre.

 

 

[Guest guest]

The thing about B12 is that the pre-vegan reserves in your body can

last for several years, so you won't notice any problems for some

time after becoming vegan. In severe cases though B12 deficiency can

be very serious, so it's a good idea to make sure that you're getting

it one way or another.

 

Paul

 

On 20 Feb 2007, at 18:26, peter VV wrote:

 

> I have never taken a b12 suppliment, but I know a loyt of people

> swear by them......

>

> The Valley Vegan.............

>

> Helen <helen wrote:

>

> Hi,

>

> Just found an interesting page on Bupa re B12 deficiency (link below),

> seems vegans maybe at risk but not so vegetarians. I shall ask my GP

> about it next time I go, thanks for help all.

>

> http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaemia_b12.html

Peter H

>

>

>

>

> To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all

> new Security Centre.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well as a follow up to my earlier post, Pure Soya spread is fortified with

10g providing 50% of the RDA.

 

On 20/02/07, Paul Russell <prussell wrote:

>

> The thing about B12 is that the pre-vegan reserves in your body can

> last for several years, so you won't notice any problems for some

> time after becoming vegan. In severe cases though B12 deficiency can

> be very serious, so it's a good idea to make sure that you're getting

> it one way or another.

>

> Paul

>

> On 20 Feb 2007, at 18:26, peter VV wrote:

>

> > I have never taken a b12 suppliment, but I know a loyt of people

> > swear by them......

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.............

> >

> > Helen <helen <helen%40andywiles.com>> wrote:

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Just found an interesting page on Bupa re B12 deficiency (link below),

> > seems vegans maybe at risk but not so vegetarians. I shall ask my GP

> > about it next time I go, thanks for help all.

> >

> > http://hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/anaemia_b12.html

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Peter H

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all

> > new Security Centre.

> >

> >