Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingly enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence(Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. lentil_sprout <tanya wrote: I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Sonal, Whilst I agree with your comments, the one part I am weary of is the " not on our side " attitude. I dont think it is a good thing to start talking about sides , as it is a very fine line between our side / your side, and love / hate. We are all human beings , and negative thoughts lead to negative actions. Surely we must try and find some common ground to meet at and share our views from there? Otherwise we regress to our carniverous ancestors, unable to reason. Â Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens Saturday, 1 November, 2008 12:04:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingl y enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence( Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. lentil_sprout <tanya (AT) roddie (DOT) co.uk> wrote: I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! ------------ --------- --------- --- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 It should be relatively simple for each of your lives to have their own space? Surely he is not expecting you to take up his line of work, or start eating meat? I married a carnie, and she now eats a lot less meat than she used to , as she has tried and liked my food, so I have made a little difference! Surely he should respect your lifestyle, and give you the space to follow it? Â Peter vv lentil_sprout <tanya Friday, 31 October, 2008 10:31:03 PM Help! Relationship advice needed! I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Peter, I can see what u mean.My ' our side' stance isn't a very strict one, though.I fully agree with your total approach towards the entire humanity, disregarding whether one is vegan or an exploiter of non-human animals.At the same time, if one has a certain desire to convert as many as possible of those exploiters to veganism(primarily by change of their heart, rather than coercion), its hard to resist using the phrase' our side'. May be, this time around u can see my point! Thanx! Sonal Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Hi Sonal, Whilst I agree with your comments, the one part I am weary of is the " not on our side " attitude. I dont think it is a good thing to start talking about sides , as it is a very fine line between our side / your side, and love / hate. We are all human beings , and negative thoughts lead to negative actions. Surely we must try and find some common ground to meet at and share our views from there? Otherwise we regress to our carniverous ancestors, unable to reason. Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens Saturday, 1 November, 2008 12:04:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingl y enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence( Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. lentil_sprout <tanya (AT) roddie (DOT) co.uk> wrote: I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! ------------ --------- --------- --- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Sanal, I do see your point , and I wasnt criticising you, just saying it is a dangerous path to go down to start putting up barriers using terms like " sides " , we have enough barriers without creating more. It would be self defeatist. Passive resistance , and subverting from withing have a lot to be said for them. Peace..... Â Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens Saturday, 1 November, 2008 7:51:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Peter, I can see what u mean.My ' our side' stance isn't a very strict one, though.I fully agree with your total approach towards the entire humanity, disregarding whether one is vegan or an exploiter of non-human animals.At the same time, if one has a certain desire to convert as many as possible of those exploiters to veganism(primarily by change of their heart, rather than coercion), its hard to resist using the phrase' our side'. May be, this time around u can see my point! Thanx! Sonal Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: Hi Sonal, Whilst I agree with your comments, the one part I am weary of is the " not on our side " attitude. I dont think it is a good thing to start talking about sides , as it is a very fine line between our side / your side, and love / hate. We are all human beings , and negative thoughts lead to negative actions. Surely we must try and find some common ground to meet at and share our views from there? Otherwise we regress to our carniverous ancestors, unable to reason. Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens@ .co. in> @ .com Saturday, 1 November, 2008 12:04:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingl y enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence( Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. lentil_sprout <tanya (AT) roddie (DOT) co.uk> wrote: I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! ------------ --------- --------- --- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi Peter, I guess we both see each other's point very well! I admire u for your ideas and principles! Sonal Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Hi Sanal, I do see your point , and I wasnt criticising you, just saying it is a dangerous path to go down to start putting up barriers using terms like " sides " , we have enough barriers without creating more. It would be self defeatist. Passive resistance , and subverting from withing have a lot to be said for them. Peace..... Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens Saturday, 1 November, 2008 7:51:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Peter, I can see what u mean.My ' our side' stance isn't a very strict one, though.I fully agree with your total approach towards the entire humanity, disregarding whether one is vegan or an exploiter of non-human animals.At the same time, if one has a certain desire to convert as many as possible of those exploiters to veganism(primarily by change of their heart, rather than coercion), its hard to resist using the phrase' our side'. May be, this time around u can see my point! Thanx! Sonal Peter VV <swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote: Hi Sonal, Whilst I agree with your comments, the one part I am weary of is the " not on our side " attitude. I dont think it is a good thing to start talking about sides , as it is a very fine line between our side / your side, and love / hate. We are all human beings , and negative thoughts lead to negative actions. Surely we must try and find some common ground to meet at and share our views from there? Otherwise we regress to our carniverous ancestors, unable to reason. Peter vv sonal - <sonal_greens@ .co. in> @ .com Saturday, 1 November, 2008 12:04:04 AM Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingl y enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence( Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. lentil_sprout <tanya (AT) roddie (DOT) co.uk> wrote: I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! ------------ --------- --------- --- Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 My advice, in brief, would be to try to distance yourself from this man, and get involved in veggie and vegan groups and try to meet someone more compatible! I cannot understand what has made you like him, but whatever it is, please understand that it is superficial niceness put on to make people like him, someone who does what he does cannot be a nice person. I am sure many of the Nazis seemed nice people to their own families! Someone so directly responsible for such horrendous abuse of animals can never be the right person for an ethical vegan. I say this absolutely without any reservations, and I am not saying mixed relationships cannot work in some cases but what he does seems just too extreme for it to be possible. A person can have no compassion or empathy whatsoever if he is able to take part in intensive farming of chickens. Why does he not allow the chickens to live free range at the very least? Have you asked him why he is so cruel in his farming methods? Sorry if my directness offends but you did ask! Lesley _____ On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 31 October 2008 22:31 Help! Relationship advice needed! I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you do in my situation?? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 No, I really appreciate your honest opinion! That's what went through my mind at first - 'WHAT is going on?????!!!!!????!!!! No no no!!!!!!!!' And yet . . . You know what, he is not what we might think he would be like. I told him that he didn't seem like a chicken farmer and he asked what I thought chicken farmers were like . . . and I did an impression of a big, mean and nasty person. But honestly, he's the first chicken farmer I've met, so my idea must just be a stereotype. You can't put anyone in a box, even a factory farmer. Curiously, he is one of the few people here who has not said one bad thing about my diet and beliefs. He doesn't even tease me about it. Everyone else does. He is not, actually, without compassion and empathy. I think it's that this was just the way he was brought up - it's the family's farm. He's not working there at the moment . . . and he doesn't think he'll go back to it after college - not for good, anyway. It is ridiculously extreme - but I guess that's how we first started talking. I wish someone had recorded that first conversation. It went something like this - " What did you do before coming to college? " " I work on a farm. " " An organic vegetable farm? " " A chicken farm. " " Free range? " " No " " I'm a vegan. " Mad, huh? Thanks for your post - I'll think about those things. Tanya , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > My advice, in brief, would be to try to distance yourself from this man, and > get involved in veggie and vegan groups and try to meet someone more > compatible! > > > > I cannot understand what has made you like him, but whatever it is, please > understand that it is superficial niceness put on to make people like him, > someone who does what he does cannot be a nice person. > > > > I am sure many of the Nazis seemed nice people to their own families! > > > > Someone so directly responsible for such horrendous abuse of animals can > never be the right person for an ethical vegan. I say this absolutely > without any reservations, and I am not saying mixed relationships cannot > work in some cases but what he does seems just too extreme for it to be > possible. > > > > A person can have no compassion or empathy whatsoever if he is able to take > part in intensive farming of chickens. > > > > Why does he not allow the chickens to live free range at the very least? > Have you asked him why he is so cruel in his farming methods? > > > > Sorry if my directness offends but you did ask! > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > _____ > > On Behalf Of > lentil_sprout > 31 October 2008 22:31 > > Help! Relationship advice needed! > > > > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Thanks, Sonal - I like your point here. Also, the Bible tells us to love our enemies. It is so much more powerful and life-changing than hatred, I think. I'll see how it goes . . . Tanya , sonal - <sonal_greens wrote: > > Hi Tanya/Lentil sprout, > The Father of my Nation(you might be familiar with this concept of naming a really great person from a particular country,XYZ, as Father of XYZ), Mahatma Gandhi famously said that we need to be loathing a certain evil doing/ sin and not the perpetrator of that evil doing/ sin.Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action.Interestingly enough, he also gave the modern world the principle of non-violence(Martin Luther King Jr. idolised him). He was also active with Vegetarian Organisations of his time, including the one here! > Its a fact that if we genuinely wish to improve animal rights' scene, we need to be treating those who are our opponents till now with somewhat of a dignity so that we give them a fair amount of chance for their change of heart.Eg.,if we meet a meat-eater, we should not start criticising him/ her right away for eating meat;otherwise firstly, he/ she will get very defensive about his/ her dietary choice, and secondly, he/ she will hardly bother to switch on to our side.When we meet a meat-eater , we should keep our emotions(towards animal rights) in check, and present our case to him in a neutral (howsoever hard it may seem to do!) tone . This would do us more good. > If destiny is giving you a chance to get sentimental over somebody who is not on our side till now, go ahead and grab that chance!Then skilfully use your charms and love to make him see your point of view!Who knows, may be you increase our numbers by one headcount! > To re-iterate an important point so that it gets inside you properly- Hit at the bad action, not at the perpetrator of that action. > > lentil_sprout <tanya wrote: > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is a lot I would want to know. If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any vegetarians or vegans? Best of luck, Lesley _____ On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 01 November 2008 22:47 Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! No, I really appreciate your honest opinion! That's what went through my mind at first - 'WHAT is going on?????!!!!!????!!!! No no no!!!!!!!!' And yet . . . You know what, he is not what we might think he would be like. I told him that he didn't seem like a chicken farmer and he asked what I thought chicken farmers were like . . . and I did an impression of a big, mean and nasty person. But honestly, he's the first chicken farmer I've met, so my idea must just be a stereotype. You can't put anyone in a box, even a factory farmer. Curiously, he is one of the few people here who has not said one bad thing about my diet and beliefs. He doesn't even tease me about it. Everyone else does. He is not, actually, without compassion and empathy. I think it's that this was just the way he was brought up - it's the family's farm. He's not working there at the moment . . . and he doesn't think he'll go back to it after college - not for good, anyway. It is ridiculously extreme - but I guess that's how we first started talking. I wish someone had recorded that first conversation. It went something like this - " What did you do before coming to college? " " I work on a farm. " " An organic vegetable farm? " " A chicken farm. " " Free range? " " No " " I'm a vegan. " Mad, huh? Thanks for your post - I'll think about those things. Tanya @ <%40> .com, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > My advice, in brief, would be to try to distance yourself from this man, and > get involved in veggie and vegan groups and try to meet someone more > compatible! > > > > I cannot understand what has made you like him, but whatever it is, please > understand that it is superficial niceness put on to make people like him, > someone who does what he does cannot be a nice person. > > > > I am sure many of the Nazis seemed nice people to their own families! > > > > Someone so directly responsible for such horrendous abuse of animals can > never be the right person for an ethical vegan. I say this absolutely > without any reservations, and I am not saying mixed relationships cannot > work in some cases but what he does seems just too extreme for it to be > possible. > > > > A person can have no compassion or empathy whatsoever if he is able to take > part in intensive farming of chickens. > > > > Why does he not allow the chickens to live free range at the very least? > Have you asked him why he is so cruel in his farming methods? > > > > Sorry if my directness offends but you did ask! > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > _____ > > @ <%40> .com [@ <%40> .com] On Behalf Of > lentil_sprout > 31 October 2008 22:31 > @ <%40> .com > Help! Relationship advice needed! > > > > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Hi Lesley, Some times its not easy to find like minded people close to you. I know of no vegans in my area. The nearest group, I once went out on a meal with, and they were so insular,and unfriendly to the point of being rude, and I would never go again. Some of us vegans have no problem sticking up for ourselves when we get the third degree.  Peter vv Lesley Dove <Lesley Saturday, 1 November, 2008 11:16:09 PM RE: Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is a lot I would want to know. If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any vegetarians or vegans? Best of luck, Lesley _____ @ .com [@ .com] On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 01 November 2008 22:47 @ .com Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! No, I really appreciate your honest opinion! That's what went through my mind at first - 'WHAT is going on?????!!!!! ????!!!! No no no!!!!!!!!' And yet . . . You know what, he is not what we might think he would be like. I told him that he didn't seem like a chicken farmer and he asked what I thought chicken farmers were like . . . and I did an impression of a big, mean and nasty person. But honestly, he's the first chicken farmer I've met, so my idea must just be a stereotype. You can't put anyone in a box, even a factory farmer. Curiously, he is one of the few people here who has not said one bad thing about my diet and beliefs. He doesn't even tease me about it. Everyone else does. He is not, actually, without compassion and empathy. I think it's that this was just the way he was brought up - it's the family's farm. He's not working there at the moment . . . and he doesn't think he'll go back to it after college - not for good, anyway. It is ridiculously extreme - but I guess that's how we first started talking. I wish someone had recorded that first conversation. It went something like this - " What did you do before coming to college? " " I work on a farm. " " An organic vegetable farm? " " A chicken farm. " " Free range? " " No " " I'm a vegan. " Mad, huh? Thanks for your post - I'll think about those things. Tanya @ <% 40. com> .com, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > My advice, in brief, would be to try to distance yourself from this man, and > get involved in veggie and vegan groups and try to meet someone more > compatible! > > > > I cannot understand what has made you like him, but whatever it is, please > understand that it is superficial niceness put on to make people like him, > someone who does what he does cannot be a nice person. > > > > I am sure many of the Nazis seemed nice people to their own families! > > > > Someone so directly responsible for such horrendous abuse of animals can > never be the right person for an ethical vegan. I say this absolutely > without any reservations, and I am not saying mixed relationships cannot > work in some cases but what he does seems just too extreme for it to be > possible. > > > > A person can have no compassion or empathy whatsoever if he is able to take > part in intensive farming of chickens. > > > > Why does he not allow the chickens to live free range at the very least? > Have you asked him why he is so cruel in his farming methods? > > > > Sorry if my directness offends but you did ask! > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > _____ > > @ <% 40. com> .com [@ <% 40. com> .com] On Behalf Of > lentil_sprout > 31 October 2008 22:31 > @ <% 40. com> .com > Help! Relationship advice needed! > > > > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 I definitely have no problem sticking up for myself as a vegan, I rarely get the third degree about it, what I do have a problem with is some people just not being very considerate, no-one gives me any direct arguments against my veganism (they probably know they have no coherent arguments back to justify the killing and cruelty their diets require so I am not surprised I get very little argument). But also I don't find most people are interested in it either. Because I find it hard to relate to people who do not understand or share my ethics, of course I would prefer not to have to be around a bunch of animal eaters all the time, I would think this is a perfectly reasonable way to feel as a vegan. In your position, I would definitely give that group a second chance. Any group can change as people leave and new members join. I remember you mentioned this bad experience before, but I would guess it was quite a long time ago now. I would give things a year or two and try again. It could be totally different, with some new people who are more friendly. I have met a few not very nice vegans, even some who are actually quite disloyal to other vegans in the movement, I find this behaviour quite bizarre, some of the in-fighting that has gone on has been depressing, I think we need to stick together. I've even met a few vegans who seem more interested in their " status " within the vegan movement, and general one-upmanship, than in cooperating and getting on with other vegans. They are definitely in the minority, but these people do definitely exist, mentioning no names of course. I do understand why you do not want to go back to the group, if these people seemed cliquey but thankfully vegans like that seem to be in the minority, most people are surely only happy to meet other vegans if they don't know any. I would not just write a group off over one experience. I certainly don't know your local group so I am not in any way biased in saying this, it just seems like common sense to give a second chance because it's worth it when you have something so important in common. It's also important for the organiser to know if newcomers are not feeling properly welcome in the group, maybe the organiser is not aware that you felt this way. I can tell you that as a general rule group organisers very much want new people to feel welcome and want their group to be a success, most of us would not be so arrogant as to be cliquey or to think we did not want or need to be friendly to new people. If the organiser does not know there is a problem they can't improve on things though. Lesley _____ On Behalf Of Peter VV 01 November 2008 23:22 Re: Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Hi Lesley, Some times its not easy to find like minded people close to you. I know of no vegans in my area. The nearest group, I once went out on a meal with, and they were so insular,and unfriendly to the point of being rude, and I would never go again. Some of us vegans have no problem sticking up for ourselves when we get the third degree. Peter vv Lesley Dove <Lesley (AT) vegan4life (DOT) <Lesley%40vegan4life.org.uk> org.uk> @ <%40> .com Saturday, 1 November, 2008 11:16:09 PM RE: Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is a lot I would want to know. If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any vegetarians or vegans? Best of luck, Lesley _____ @ .com [@ .com] On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 01 November 2008 22:47 @ .com Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! No, I really appreciate your honest opinion! That's what went through my mind at first - 'WHAT is going on?????!!!!! ????!!!! No no no!!!!!!!!' And yet . . . You know what, he is not what we might think he would be like. I told him that he didn't seem like a chicken farmer and he asked what I thought chicken farmers were like . . . and I did an impression of a big, mean and nasty person. But honestly, he's the first chicken farmer I've met, so my idea must just be a stereotype. You can't put anyone in a box, even a factory farmer. Curiously, he is one of the few people here who has not said one bad thing about my diet and beliefs. He doesn't even tease me about it. Everyone else does. He is not, actually, without compassion and empathy. I think it's that this was just the way he was brought up - it's the family's farm. He's not working there at the moment . . . and he doesn't think he'll go back to it after college - not for good, anyway. It is ridiculously extreme - but I guess that's how we first started talking. I wish someone had recorded that first conversation. It went something like this - " What did you do before coming to college? " " I work on a farm. " " An organic vegetable farm? " " A chicken farm. " " Free range? " " No " " I'm a vegan. " Mad, huh? Thanks for your post - I'll think about those things. Tanya @ <% 40. com> .com, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > My advice, in brief, would be to try to distance yourself from this man, and > get involved in veggie and vegan groups and try to meet someone more > compatible! > > > > I cannot understand what has made you like him, but whatever it is, please > understand that it is superficial niceness put on to make people like him, > someone who does what he does cannot be a nice person. > > > > I am sure many of the Nazis seemed nice people to their own families! > > > > Someone so directly responsible for such horrendous abuse of animals can > never be the right person for an ethical vegan. I say this absolutely > without any reservations, and I am not saying mixed relationships cannot > work in some cases but what he does seems just too extreme for it to be > possible. > > > > A person can have no compassion or empathy whatsoever if he is able to take > part in intensive farming of chickens. > > > > Why does he not allow the chickens to live free range at the very least? > Have you asked him why he is so cruel in his farming methods? > > > > Sorry if my directness offends but you did ask! > > > > > > Lesley > > > > > > _____ > > @ <% 40. com> .com [@ <% 40. com> .com] On Behalf Of > lentil_sprout > 31 October 2008 22:31 > @ <% 40. com> .com > Help! Relationship advice needed! > > > > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 > >2008/11/1 > Digest Number 1413 > > >I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - >what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my >principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you >do in my situation?? I guess I'm a bit of a hybrid as far as this goes in that I agree with both types of view that have been expressed. Writing anyone off as a nasty person because of what they do is not the best way to improve the world. Moreover, some of the nastiest people I've ever come across have been vegans. I tell myself this is because I know a lot of vegans, though I fear there is a streak of fundamentalism in the movement together with a lot of repressed anger that can all too easily lead to aggression against one another as well as the " enemy " (as such people often regard meat eaters, though most of them ate meat themselves at one time). Remembering Serena Coles, I recently organised an event bringing together medical and care home professionals to try to get more respect for " minority " (horrid word) dietary needs. A member of the care homes inspectorate described seeing a care worker with a spoon in each hand shovelling food into two dementia sufferers while talking over their heads to her friend who was doing the same thing a short distance away. This was not deliberate cruelty - she just did not see them as sentient beings, and there were no photos on the wall to tell her how the person she was feeding had been at her own age (worth doing when anyone is being cared for by strangers - brings them alive as people rather than patients) The same is probably true of your chicken farmer. Has he ever watched (not just seen, but watched) hens living the kind of lives hens are designed to live? Has he ever thought about why we talk about a doting parent as a real mother hen? Would he let you have a couple of battery hens as a " gift " ? Of course, this might not work since if they are broilers their legs may break before they're even adult - as happened with the lovely Sidney whom Joan Court rescued from a Cambridgeshire turkey breeding place. Would he be willing to visit a santuary with you where there just happen to be some rescued hens, all feathered and fussing as hens do? I guess this is like agreeing to go to church with a Jehovah Witness, but he might agree if he's a tolerant sort of chap. There is no reason why your guy shouldn't become like John Robbins or others who have seen the light and given up animal exploitation to work for animal protection, but it's not much more likely than you becoming a Jehovah Witness, so don't bank on it. Nevertheless, love may find a way. That said, having not kissed a carnivore for over a decade I now can't imagine doing so - the idea of what has been in their mouths, is still hanging around in their gut etc just turns me over. Yet there was a time when I was happily negotiating with a meat eater to ban meat from the house to the barbecue (in California, so it was a realistic compromise). The idea of sharing a bed and a bathroom with a corpse chewer now seems appalling - but that is a limitation in myself, not in those whom it situates beyond the pale, and a worrying suggestion that fundamentalism can take root in a good liberal at any stage of life. Incidentally, being crazy about someone is a lovely feeling but it also completely blinds you to who they really are, so beware if letting dreams of the future get out of hand: once you're actually living with somebody the golden glow around their head or butt or wherever tends to fade into something more rational. That's when all the things you never noticed start becoming more important than the soppy looks they gave you at the beginning. Hippocrates rightly diagnosed romantic love as a kind of madness and we correctly perpetuate the diagnosis by the use of phrases such as " mad about " , " crazy for " , etc. It is nature's way of ensuring the future of the species - cf hares or any other form of wildlife in the springtime! This is not to say that long-term relationships cannot work if the parties have very different views or lifestyles - I know of some very happy Hindu-Muslim couples, for example - but if there is already something that sticks in your throat even despite the first fond foolish rapture it will certainly choke you once the glitz wears off. Unless you can talk through it and genuinely agree to differ (yes, one of you may convert, but don't bank on it - he may be hoping equally fervently to convert you into a good battery farmer's wife!) We do need to engage with everyone in a non-judgmental way to achieve any kind of respect among non-vegans, but when your own future happiness is involved be very careful about letting dreams get ahead of reality. Good luck! Vanessa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 What a brilliant & very useful reply! Some excellent ideas in there, and not just about the chickens. Though how sad to read about the broken legs - and they say we're a nation of animal lovers. Unfortunately, most people only love them on their plates... Ellie On Behalf Of interveg 02 November 2008 11:37 Fwd: Help! Relationship advice needed! I guess I'm a bit of a hybrid as far as this goes in that I agree with both types of view that have been expressed. Writing anyone off as a nasty person because of what they do is not the best way to improve the world. Moreover, some of the nastiest people I've ever come across have been vegans. I tell myself this is because I know a lot of vegans, though I fear there is a streak of fundamentalism in the movement together with a lot of repressed anger that can all too easily lead to aggression against one another as well as the " enemy " (as such people often regard meat eaters, though most of them ate meat themselves at one time). {Lots snipped} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Lol - I live in Belfast! Vegetarians are few and far between I worked at a restaurant here earlier this year and the chef used to wave raw meat in my face and call me a freak! Thanks for your advice , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion > and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. > > I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and > it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is > in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, > what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is > a lot I would want to know. > > > > If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest > local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of > being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of > an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any > vegetarians or vegans? > > > > Best of luck, > > Lesley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Big boos and hisses to that chef, not Gordon Ramsay was it? I would have made an official complaint because that really sounds like harassment and discrimination, it's disgusting and he probably would not have dared to do that with pork to a Muslim or Jew, sounds like you need to stand up for yourself against these bullies! Did you actually do anything about it? Google is your friend (or any other search engine possibly), " Vegan Belfast " or " Vegetarian Belfast " or " Animal Rights Belfast " came up with a few hits for possible contacts for you: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile <http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile & friendid=1 30714408> & friendid=130714408 (someone vegan in Belfast on Myspace seems keen to hear from others) http://www.veggies.org.uk/acd/europe/uk/n-ire.htm (although some of these contacts might be out of date) http://www.viva.org.uk/eatingout/display.php?county=BELFAST (place to eat rather than an actual contact) http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16380 <http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16380 & sid=3b25931f8812d87 f16bb9dde7e403cda> & sid=3b25931f8812d87f16bb9dde7e403cda (another vegan in Belfast) http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigner/contacts03.html (at the bottom is a contact for Viva! in Belfast, vegetarian, not sure if she is vegan) Also in my copy of the Vegan is a contact in Belfast Donna Black, donna.black (who might well be the one on Myspace or on Veganfitness for all I know) ...so was that you were saying about vegetarians and vegans being few and far between in Belfast? They seem pretty easy to find on a Google search so I am sure with this information you will be able to meet some of them soon. Hope this helps, Lesley _____ On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 02 November 2008 19:32 Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Lol - I live in Belfast! Vegetarians are few and far between I worked at a restaurant here earlier this year and the chef used to wave raw meat in my face and call me a freak! Thanks for your advice , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion > and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. > > I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and > it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is > in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, > what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is > a lot I would want to know. > > > > If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest > local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of > being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of > an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any > vegetarians or vegans? > > > > Best of luck, > > Lesley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 The Myspace vegan in Belfast link did not come through properly as clickable, you will have to cut and paste it if this does not work as it's quite a long url, http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile <http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile & friendid=1 30714408> & friendid=130714408 Lesley _____ @ <%40> .com [@ <%40> .com] On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 02 November 2008 19:32 @ <%40> .com Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Lol - I live in Belfast! Vegetarians are few and far between I worked at a restaurant here earlier this year and the chef used to wave raw meat in my face and call me a freak! Thanks for your advice @ <%40> .com, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion > and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. > > I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and > it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is > in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, > what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is > a lot I would want to know. > > > > If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest > local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of > being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of > an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any > vegetarians or vegans? > > > > Best of luck, > > Lesley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Duh, I am so thick, this one should work, 3rd time lucky! http://www.myspace.com/veganbelfast _____ @ <%40> .com [@ <%40> .com] On Behalf Of lentil_sprout 02 November 2008 19:32 @ <%40> .com Re: Help! Relationship advice needed! Lol - I live in Belfast! Vegetarians are few and far between I worked at a restaurant here earlier this year and the chef used to wave raw meat in my face and call me a freak! Thanks for your advice @ <%40> .com, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > > > > I really hope you are right about him being someone who has some compassion > and empathy, and I hope he is open-minded enough to change. > > I would always be very, very, wary of anyone who can be cruel to animals and > it's probably important to find out exactly what his level of involvement is > in the abuse of animals. Does he have to do anything actively that is cruel, > what has he witnessed, how does it make him feel? In your position there is > a lot I would want to know. > > > > If everyone else teases you, can I ask you why you don't find your nearest > local vegetarian group to be with and find like-minded friends instead of > being around people who don't respect you? Surely it's worth making a bit of > an effort to be around nicer people? Or don't you live anywhere near any > vegetarians or vegans? > > > > Best of luck, > > Lesley > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Wow what a situation to be in! There's so many things that can influence this. How long have you known him? How old are you both? What role does he play in his family's " business " ? It could be that if he's been brought up around intensive farming he's never seen anything wrong with it, much like many people are brought up eating meat and never question its origins. I think you mentioned in another post that you were in college - this suggests that he's relatively young and so may not have played an active role in what his family does. His involvement may not have extended further than cleaning the sheds after the chickens have been slaughtered, so he may not have given much thought to the whole gruesome process. It might be that he needs a different perspective, to see chickens as sentient beings with their own personalities, their own quirks and characteristics. He's probably gone his whole life being told that chickens are there to be killed, and so that makes it OK. Many people seem to think that if an animal is bred for a horrific fate, that automatically justifies it. Perhaps talking to you will open his eyes? If we want to change things for the better and help others understand that compassion extends to all living beings, we can't turn our backs and refuse to engage with anyone who harms an animal. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean we have to make ourselves emotionally vulnerable by becoming involved with someone who perpetuates the worst abuses. If this person knows everything that goes on in intensive farming and simply doesn't care, then keep your distance. Even if he's perfectly pleasant to you, knowing what he does will be like a knife twisting inside you every time you think about it. It all depends on how involved he is and if he's likely to change his perspective. Good luck in making the right decision. , " lentil_sprout " <tanya wrote: > > I've somehow managed to fall in love with an intensive chicken farmer - > what do I do? His line of work (his family's business) goes against my > principles completely . . . but I'm crazy about the guy. What would you > do in my situation?? > > Thanks! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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