Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 In message <bf6367050811070459u103e0f1bn2519dde1a99ffa44 , Vanessa Clarke <vanessaclarke1 writes >Posted by: " andrew6766 " bobwilson180 andrew6766 >Thu Nov 6, 2008 3:40 am (PST) > >> was that the number of vegans has remained basically static for at >least ten years. The proportion of these who are Vegan Society members has >>also remained static. > >What is the proportion? Just over 4000 out of about 120,000 (the highest likely real figure) or 150,000 (the most we could get away with claiming however we massage the figures). Membership has varied between 4 and 4.5 thousand but not by any huge amount. We get a lot of new members every year, but equally a lot of people don't renew. We used to think this was because they felt confident without our help and assumed they were still vegan. It seems that this was an over-optimistic view. > >The figures are so disappointing, why would this be the case? >I am not sure what more we >can do, helping on awareness raising stalls, or even just setting an example >in day to day life and being prepared to answer people's questions as to one >is vegan, why is there not more progress when so many of us do these things >already? >I don't think the poor figures are due to lack of hard work and effort by >the Vegan Society and other groups such as Viva! and Vegancampaigns, but for >some reason the message seems to be very slow getting through. There is plenty of progress in terms of getting new vegans - the problem is that they don't stay vegan. This is due to various reasons (and needs some research once we admit that a lot of people give up being vegan after a longer or shorter period). Anyone who has been frightened into it by self-interest (e.g. milk causes osteoporosis/cancer/whatever, which it doesn't) is unlikely to stay. We all know there are social difficulties, but more important is the fact that many people don't feel good on a vegan diet and are not helped by being afraid to admit it because so many of us put up a barrage of arguments as to why they ought to feel better. I began to feel a bit below par after about eight months, but then heard about B12 and felt fine for several years until the lack of iodine kicked in (my GP wanted to put me on medication but the Vegan Society recommended kelp and the results went back to normal). There are also people whose children fail to thrive and even cases of rickets. All these things are quite simply dealt with, but they won't be if we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to admit they exist. > >Vanessa do you know if the numbers of vegetarians has risen? I would suspect >their numbers have risen and many sympathise with veganism but still >perceive it as too difficult and limiting, certainly that is the impression >I got on a vegan leaflet table I did on Monday in Kingston with a couple of >other local vegans. We had lots of members of the public who came up and >said they were vegetarian, but many did not seem sure they were ready to >take the next logical step (even after 20 years as vegetarians in some >cases). We were able to offer them leaflets with recipes as well as >information on all the reasons to be vegan. The number of vegetarians has apparently also been static for more than a decade (despite Viva appearing on the scene as well as the existing organisations). Also a lot of people who say they are vegetarian (or vegan) turn out not to be - it is particularly disconcerting when you look at follow-up questionnaires on people claiming to be veg*n and find that a large number of them (sometimes a large majority) actually aren't. The great majority of people who avoid animal products seem to do so for altruistic reasons - and rightly so. I would continue to be vegan even if it meant sacrificing a couple of years of life expectancy (which it doesn't need to if we follow a few simple guidelines) but most people wouldn't, and fortunately very few indeed are willing to risk the health of their children (the worst possible publicity for the movement). So what we really need to do is to persuade people of the moral argument (animals, environment, developing nations) while explaining clearly what precautions they need to take to ensure their own and their children's health and make it cheap and easy for them to do so. As for the stalls, festivals, leaflets (apart from those making dodgy health claims) etc, they do work and Lesley and others are to be congratulated on their hard work in getting so many new vegans. All we have to do now is to make sure they stay healthy, stay vegan and don't feel socially isolated. Good wishes to all, Vanessa >I need to go back to the manager of Subway and give >him a copy of a chapter from a book which I have.Its on Animals' place >in Islam.That man thinks its very Islamic to eat animal products. >Leafletting is really an easy job to do, once we start doing it.Its an >important medium for us to connect to non-vegans. Are you referring to Islam and Animal Welfare, published by the Islamic Foundation? CIWF helped get this reprinted and it's really quite learned. There are also some useful quotes on www.ivu.org complete with Urdu and Arabic texts (in an article in IVU News about ten years ago) Most of my Muslim friends are very supportive and certainly don't see veganism as un-Islamic. I don't do religion myself, but the following is good: The creatures of God are the family of God and he is best loved by God who best loves the family of God. Better known is: " There is not an animal that walks on the earth nor a bird that flies with its wings but they are Communities just like us. " Both go down well with restaurant proprietors etc - certainly better than simply criticising other people's beliefs and plugging our own. The Prophet (S) had loads more to say about kindness to animals than Jesus - either that or whoever wrote down Jesus's sayings didn't regard animals as worth mentioning (with the exception of the sparrow, of course, which is mentioned only to exalt the position of our own species) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 Regarding that book, its not the one by Islamic Foundation.I wish I had that one too!This is by Vasu Murti, and has all the religions' views on animal rights. interveg wrote: In message <bf6367050811070459u103e0f1bn2519dde1a99ffa44 , Vanessa Clarke <vanessaclarke1 writes >Posted by: " andrew6766 " bobwilson180 andrew6766 >Thu Nov 6, 2008 3:40 am (PST) > >> was that the number of vegans has remained basically static for at >least ten years. The proportion of these who are Vegan Society members has >>also remained static. > >What is the proportion? Just over 4000 out of about 120,000 (the highest likely real figure) or 150,000 (the most we could get away with claiming however we massage the figures). Membership has varied between 4 and 4.5 thousand but not by any huge amount. We get a lot of new members every year, but equally a lot of people don't renew. We used to think this was because they felt confident without our help and assumed they were still vegan. It seems that this was an over-optimistic view. > >The figures are so disappointing, why would this be the case? >I am not sure what more we >can do, helping on awareness raising stalls, or even just setting an example >in day to day life and being prepared to answer people's questions as to one >is vegan, why is there not more progress when so many of us do these things >already? >I don't think the poor figures are due to lack of hard work and effort by >the Vegan Society and other groups such as Viva! and Vegancampaigns, but for >some reason the message seems to be very slow getting through. There is plenty of progress in terms of getting new vegans - the problem is that they don't stay vegan. This is due to various reasons (and needs some research once we admit that a lot of people give up being vegan after a longer or shorter period). Anyone who has been frightened into it by self-interest (e.g. milk causes osteoporosis/cancer/whatever, which it doesn't) is unlikely to stay. We all know there are social difficulties, but more important is the fact that many people don't feel good on a vegan diet and are not helped by being afraid to admit it because so many of us put up a barrage of arguments as to why they ought to feel better. I began to feel a bit below par after about eight months, but then heard about B12 and felt fine for several years until the lack of iodine kicked in (my GP wanted to put me on medication but the Vegan Society recommended kelp and the results went back to normal). There are also people whose children fail to thrive and even cases of rickets. All these things are quite simply dealt with, but they won't be if we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to admit they exist. > >Vanessa do you know if the numbers of vegetarians has risen? I would suspect >their numbers have risen and many sympathise with veganism but still >perceive it as too difficult and limiting, certainly that is the impression >I got on a vegan leaflet table I did on Monday in Kingston with a couple of >other local vegans. We had lots of members of the public who came up and >said they were vegetarian, but many did not seem sure they were ready to >take the next logical step (even after 20 years as vegetarians in some >cases). We were able to offer them leaflets with recipes as well as >information on all the reasons to be vegan. The number of vegetarians has apparently also been static for more than a decade (despite Viva appearing on the scene as well as the existing organisations). Also a lot of people who say they are vegetarian (or vegan) turn out not to be - it is particularly disconcerting when you look at follow-up questionnaires on people claiming to be veg*n and find that a large number of them (sometimes a large majority) actually aren't. The great majority of people who avoid animal products seem to do so for altruistic reasons - and rightly so. I would continue to be vegan even if it meant sacrificing a couple of years of life expectancy (which it doesn't need to if we follow a few simple guidelines) but most people wouldn't, and fortunately very few indeed are willing to risk the health of their children (the worst possible publicity for the movement). So what we really need to do is to persuade people of the moral argument (animals, environment, developing nations) while explaining clearly what precautions they need to take to ensure their own and their children's health and make it cheap and easy for them to do so. As for the stalls, festivals, leaflets (apart from those making dodgy health claims) etc, they do work and Lesley and others are to be congratulated on their hard work in getting so many new vegans. All we have to do now is to make sure they stay healthy, stay vegan and don't feel socially isolated. Good wishes to all, Vanessa >I need to go back to the manager of Subway and give >him a copy of a chapter from a book which I have.Its on Animals' place >in Islam.That man thinks its very Islamic to eat animal products. >Leafletting is really an easy job to do, once we start doing it.Its an >important medium for us to connect to non-vegans. Are you referring to Islam and Animal Welfare, published by the Islamic Foundation? CIWF helped get this reprinted and it's really quite learned. There are also some useful quotes on www.ivu.org complete with Urdu and Arabic texts (in an article in IVU News about ten years ago) Most of my Muslim friends are very supportive and certainly don't see veganism as un-Islamic. I don't do religion myself, but the following is good: The creatures of God are the family of God and he is best loved by God who best loves the family of God. Better known is: " There is not an animal that walks on the earth nor a bird that flies with its wings but they are Communities just like us. " Both go down well with restaurant proprietors etc - certainly better than simply criticising other people's beliefs and plugging our own. The Prophet (S) had loads more to say about kindness to animals than Jesus - either that or whoever wrote down Jesus's sayings didn't regard animals as worth mentioning (with the exception of the sparrow, of course, which is mentioned only to exalt the position of our own species) Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! 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