Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 Nice idea, make veganism a religion....funny...now everyone will be comparing us with the charlie mansons and branch davidians....lovely I`ll do it though. p.s.heres a nice (if very long) link that may help you in the animal rights debate. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/peter_wilson/ethics.html _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 We vegans get vilified plenty anyway, especially if we are parents too (harassed by the authorities for being vegan, or for not vaccinating, and by the radical anti-population vegans for " breeding " , so sometimes I think we can't win). I do understand your reservations about this. My opinion is that it can't make the discrimination against vegans any worse if we mobilise more people to sign up in the census as the " Ethical Vegan " religious minority, and if the 10,000 figure is correct, to get recognised officially and legally, we might actually gain more rights and officials and authorities will have to treat us more respectfully whether they like it or not. That's the idea anyway. I have heard so many awful tales from vegan parents about harassment they have received from the authorities, even for doing good things like breastfeeding a two-year-old, and I try to help and support people where I can. I think it's worth a try to get our beliefs better recognised and accepted that we are equal to religious minority groups. Social services don't dare discriminate against Muslims or Hindus for living and raising kids in their beliefs after all! Thanks for supporting this. Lesley vegan-network, " mr big " <pervyempire@h...> wrote: > Nice idea, make veganism a religion....funny...now everyone will be > comparing us with the charlie mansons and branch davidians....lovely > > I`ll do it though. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 I think there's something a bit different about veganism, it's not just another belief system like any other that you can take off the shelf... " I'm a vegan, you're a meat-eater, mass-murderer, racist, etc etc and isn't this a wonderful pluralistic society " Has anyone ever done any serious work on a philosophy for animal rights, and I don't mean Peter Singer who I think is responsible for AR never ever being taken seriously by philosophers? __________ Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 Wow another non-fan of Singer! I am not alone then. I just find him so inconsistent mostly because of his lack of respect for human life, especially the unborn and disabled infants. I certainly don't believe that Peter Singer speaks for all of us. However there are other pro-AR philosophers such as Professor Stephen R.L. Clark who is head of Philosophy at Liverpool University, and of course Tom Regan, and I am sure there are others less well-known, who take AR seriously. Many are more morally consistent than Singer. Lesley vegan-network, Heyman Michael <Michael_heyman> wrote: > I think there's something a bit different about > veganism, it's not just another belief system like any > other that you can take off the shelf... > " I'm a vegan, you're a meat-eater, mass-murderer, > racist, etc etc and isn't this a wonderful pluralistic > society " > > Has anyone ever done any serious work on a philosophy > for animal rights, and I don't mean Peter Singer who I > think is responsible for AR never ever being taken > seriously by philosophers? > > __________ > > Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk > or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 > However there are other pro-AR philosophers such as ... [snip] This is a great article by a Philosopher from the University of Cape town published in a recent issue of the QJM (medical journal). Apologies for older list members as this is a repost: http://bak.spc.org/tha/animal.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 Here's one more Ethical Vegan.Its a great idea Far better than Agnostic.Ishall use it on all forms from now on.After all we aremuch better at being vegans than most christians are at being christian.We do it every few hours they only need to do anything once a week and many can't even do that. Angie - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:47 PM Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > > We vegans get vilified plenty anyway, especially if we are parents > too (harassed by the authorities for being vegan, or for not > vaccinating, and by the radical anti-population vegans > for " breeding " , so sometimes I think we can't win). I do understand > your reservations about this. > My opinion is that it can't make the discrimination against vegans > any worse if we mobilise more people to sign up in the census as > the " Ethical Vegan " religious minority, and if the 10,000 figure is > correct, to get recognised officially and legally, we might actually > gain more rights and officials and authorities will have to treat us > more respectfully whether they like it or not. That's the idea anyway. > I have heard so many awful tales from vegan parents about harassment > they have received from the authorities, even for doing good things > like breastfeeding a two-year-old, and I try to help and support > people where I can. I think it's worth a try to get our beliefs > better recognised and accepted that we are equal to religious > minority groups. Social services don't dare discriminate against > Muslims or Hindus for living and raising kids in their beliefs after > all! > > Thanks for supporting this. > > Lesley > > > vegan-network, " mr big " <pervyempire@h...> wrote: > > Nice idea, make veganism a religion....funny...now everyone will be > > comparing us with the charlie mansons and branch davidians....lovely > > > > I`ll do it though. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 If philosophers can't take animal rights seriously'why is that peter singers fault.Perhaps the fault lies with the philosophers who might have to consider their own behavior.Its an easier life if you just see an animal in the same light as say a bicycle or an apple - " Heyman Michael " <Michael_heyman <vegan-network > Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:51 PM Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > I think there's something a bit different about > veganism, it's not just another belief system like any > other that you can take off the shelf... > " I'm a vegan, you're a meat-eater, mass-murderer, > racist, etc etc and isn't this a wonderful pluralistic > society " > > Has anyone ever done any serious work on a philosophy > for animal rights, and I don't mean Peter Singer who I > think is responsible for AR never ever being taken > seriously by philosophers? > > __________ > > Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk > or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 I'm not sure if one Questions the keeping alive of disabled infants,one can be called inconsistant after all most of us would kill an animal that was in pain if there was no way it could be saved wouldn't we? A severely disabled child might fall into this catagory. ---Angie -- Original Message ----- " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Tuesday, April 10, 2001 2:40 PM Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > > Wow another non-fan of Singer! > I am not alone then. > I just find him so inconsistent mostly because of his lack of respect > for human life, especially the unborn and disabled infants. > I certainly don't believe that Peter Singer speaks for all of us. > > However there are other pro-AR philosophers such as Professor Stephen > R.L. Clark who is head of Philosophy at Liverpool University, and of > course Tom Regan, and I am sure there are others less well-known, who > take AR seriously. Many are more morally consistent than Singer. > > Lesley > > > > vegan-network, Heyman Michael <Michael_heyman> wrote: > > I think there's something a bit different about > > veganism, it's not just another belief system like any > > other that you can take off the shelf... > > " I'm a vegan, you're a meat-eater, mass-murderer, > > racist, etc etc and isn't this a wonderful pluralistic > > society " > > > > Has anyone ever done any serious work on a philosophy > > for animal rights, and I don't mean Peter Singer who I > > think is responsible for AR never ever being taken > > seriously by philosophers? > > > > __________ > > > > Get your free @.co.uk address at http://mail..co.uk > > or your free @.ie address at http://mail..ie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 ngie, be very, very careful what you say about disabled infants. I was sickened by your reply but it might just be the way you phrased it. The way we treat people less able than ourselves can be used as an indicator as to the health of our society. Disabled folk should be helped as much as possible to live a good quality life. If you want to 'put them out of their misery' you might want to think first that you might also be 'putting them out of their joy'. They will have no standard against which to measure their happiness/unhappiness and so even the simplest things might bring them happiness. Just think on and look sharp! (as some quaint folk say here in the Northwest) Mark x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 I`d just like to warn you EarthKid....never challenge Angie, she is always right, takes no prisoners, and her bullets are big and blunt!!!! MrBitFedUpOfWaFfLe >earthkid26 >vegan-network ><vegan-network > >Re: Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights >Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:26:13 EDT > >ngie, >be very, very careful what you say about disabled infants. I was sickened >by your reply but it might just be the way you phrased it. The way we treat >people less able than ourselves can be used as an indicator as to the >health of our society. Disabled folk should be helped as much as possible >to live a good quality life. If you want to 'put them out of their misery' >you might want to think first that you might also be 'putting them out of >their joy'. They will have no standard against which to measure their >happiness/unhappiness and so even the simplest things might bring them >happiness. Just think on and look sharp! (as some quaint folk say here in >the Northwest) >Mark >x _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 I'm not saying exactly that it's Peter Singer's fault, but if you're setting yourself up as an AR philosopher then it is a good strategy to write philosophy that intellectuals can take seriously, just as if you're writing a McDonalds leaflet you need a series of simple bullet points with some statistics. I totally agree, though, that the anti-vegan 'radical' intellectuals use this as an excuse to defend their own guilty lifestyles. I have to argue with these people a lot and I find it difficult to defend my position (although it is they that should have to defend themselves!) because the theoretical work really does not exist. Unfortunately it is always the minority who have to defend ourselves against conformity. --- Angie Wright <angiewright wrote: > If philosophers can't take animal rights > seriously'why is that peter singers > fault.Perhaps the fault lies with the philosophers > who might have to > consider their own behavior.Its an easier life if > you just see an animal in > the same light as say a bicycle or an apple > - > " Heyman Michael " <Michael_heyman > <vegan-network > > Tuesday, April 10, 2001 1:51 PM > Re: vegan religion & debate > on animal rights > > > > I think there's something a bit different about > > veganism, it's not just another belief system like > any > > other that you can take off the shelf... > > " I'm a vegan, you're a meat-eater, mass-murderer, > > racist, etc etc and isn't this a wonderful > pluralistic > > society " > > > > Has anyone ever done any serious work on a > philosophy > > for animal rights, and I don't mean Peter Singer > who I > > think is responsible for AR never ever being taken > > seriously by philosophers? > > > > > __________ > > > > Get your free @.co.uk address at > http://mail..co.uk > > or your free @.ie address at > http://mail..ie > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 I Frequently find those who want to protect handicapped people often actually have no experience of them I was giving some support to Peter Singers views It is too easy to say that all are entitled to a life it is not that simple there are the other family members to consider People with handicapprd children are often afraid to admit how they feel but many do resent the loss of being normal that comes with such a child If you have not been in that position you may never have thought about it..I met a parent of a 40 yr old Downs woman who told me that her daughter had ruined her life! It was brave of her to admit to this as many people would no doubt condemn her.How do we know whether the severely disabled are not in discomfort or pain even for much of their life .many people choose to end their own life because they are in pain or desperately unhappy ..Life for some may be hell. - <earthkid26 <vegan-network > Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:26 AM Re: Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > ngie, > be very, very careful what you say about disabled infants. I was sickened by your reply but it might just be the way you phrased it. The way we treat people less able than ourselves can be used as an indicator as to the health of our society. Disabled folk should be helped as much as possible to live a good quality life. If you want to 'put them out of their misery' you might want to think first that you might also be 'putting them out of their joy'. They will have no standard against which to measure their happiness/unhappiness and so even the simplest things might bring them happiness. Just think on and look sharp! (as some quaint folk say here in the Northwest) > Mark > x > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 Quite right Mr Big You're learning fast!!!Angie - " mr big " <pervyempire <vegan-network > Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:27 AM Re: Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > I`d just like to warn you EarthKid....never challenge Angie, she is always > right, takes no prisoners, and her bullets are big and blunt!!!! > > MrBitFedUpOfWaFfLe > > > >earthkid26 > >vegan-network > ><vegan-network > > >Re: Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > >Wed, 11 Apr 2001 04:26:13 EDT > > > >ngie, > >be very, very careful what you say about disabled infants. I was sickened > >by your reply but it might just be the way you phrased it. The way we treat > >people less able than ourselves can be used as an indicator as to the > >health of our society. Disabled folk should be helped as much as possible > >to live a good quality life. If you want to 'put them out of their misery' > >you might want to think first that you might also be 'putting them out of > >their joy'. They will have no standard against which to measure their > >happiness/unhappiness and so even the simplest things might bring them > >happiness. Just think on and look sharp! (as some quaint folk say here in > >the Northwest) > >Mark > >x > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 I don't care if you were sickened by my reply I'm entitled to my viewand I dont actually thinkI gave my view.Parents of handicapped kids are expected to still love their kids Has anyone actually asked them if they honestly do? I think people would not know how to handle it if the answer was NO.!Parents are made to feel guilty if they dont feel the way society says they should.,consequently they give the " correct " answer for an easy life Angie - <earthkid26 <vegan-network > Wednesday, April 11, 2001 9:26 AM Re: Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > ngie, > be very, very careful what you say about disabled infants. I was sickened by your reply but it might just be the way you phrased it. The way we treat people less able than ourselves can be used as an indicator as to the health of our society. Disabled folk should be helped as much as possible to live a good quality life. If you want to 'put them out of their misery' you might want to think first that you might also be 'putting them out of their joy'. They will have no standard against which to measure their happiness/unhappiness and so even the simplest things might bring them happiness. Just think on and look sharp! (as some quaint folk say here in the Northwest) > Mark > x > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 If that woman really examined the situation, she would no doubt see that it was not really her disabled child who had ruined her life, but more likely the intolerant attitudes of other people to her and her child that was the real problem, and the lack of help and support available to her. This is a problem to some extent for all parents without a supportive extended family, even those with only non- disabled children. I could say that just having children has ruined my life in some ways, although certainly not in other ways, it certainly has its positive side, but what really hurt me was the way that it cost me all my friends and social life, friends who I believed would be there for me and my husband as extended family support, because we had been close to these people for about 5 years prior to having children (in the vegan group incidentally!). I certainly do not blame my kids for the situation, but I do blame my childfree former close friends for this lack of support, which caused me great isolation and depression. My son does have some behaviour problems and a statement of special needs and extra help in school (sometimes we are told he is Aspergers but ADHD has also been suggested - we firmly rejected Ritalin) although he is bright and normal in intelligence, but I believe that my friends would have rejected me anyway. Other families have also found that particular group family-unfriendly. Please don't blame the kids, blame our family-unfriendly society! I won't condemn this woman saying this in her desperation, her life was probably like a prison sentence, but I don't believe she was looking at the full picture. It takes a village (or at least extended family) to help raise a child, but that is not there for most of us. Lesley >..I met a parent of > a 40 yr old Downs woman who told me that her daughter had ruined her life! > It was brave of her to admit to this as many people would no doubt condemn > her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 This started cos I was defending Peter Singer and his arguments about handicapped children things are rarely black or white ANgie - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Wednesday, April 11, 2001 10:23 PM Re: vegan religion & debate on animal rights > > If that woman really examined the situation, she would no doubt see > that it was not really her disabled child who had ruined her life, > but more likely the intolerant attitudes of other people to her and > her child that was the real problem, and the lack of help and support > available to her. This is a problem to some extent for all parents > without a supportive extended family, even those with only non- > disabled children. > I could say that just having children has ruined my life in some > ways, although certainly not in other ways, it certainly has its > positive side, but what really hurt me was the way that it cost me > all my friends and social life, friends who I believed would be there > for me and my husband as extended family support, because we had been > close to these people for about 5 years prior to having children (in > the vegan group incidentally!). I certainly do not blame my kids for > the situation, but I do blame my childfree former close friends for > this lack of support, which caused me great isolation and depression. > My son does have some behaviour problems and a statement of special > needs and extra help in school (sometimes we are told he is Aspergers > but ADHD has also been suggested - we firmly rejected Ritalin) > although he is bright and normal in intelligence, but I believe that > my friends would have rejected me anyway. Other families have also > found that particular group family-unfriendly. > Please don't blame the kids, blame our family-unfriendly society! > I won't condemn this woman saying this in her desperation, her life > was probably like a prison sentence, but I don't believe she was > looking at the full picture. It takes a village (or at least extended > family) to help raise a child, but that is not there for most of us. > > Lesley > > > >..I met a parent of > > a 40 yr old Downs woman who told me that her daughter had ruined > her life! > > It was brave of her to admit to this as many people would no doubt > condemn > > her. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2001 Report Share Posted April 12, 2001 Hi there Lesley, Is it you who run the Vegan London's arrangements? I just wonder if you please can send me the program, I live in Leeds but go down to London every now and again and would love to meet up with other vegans. Thanks! LOVE Sandra _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2001 Report Share Posted April 12, 2001 I lived in a small village up until 7 months ago, I have lived all over but this is where my son was born...my family was there for me and there were local get togethers I used to go to, at the time my husband and I wanted more from our lives, we were on benefits and had accumulated thousands of pounds of debt from being at university so our only choice was to move to a bigger area. I am a friendly person and have never found it that hard to make friends but since having moved up to Hertfordshire I have found that I have lost my ability to communicate with people, I don't have any family here so it is very difficult for us to get any time away from the mundaness of every day life...I am also 4 months pregnant now so that has added to my frustration. What I am saying to you Leslie is that I know where you are coming from in terms of support and an individuals desire to still have a life beyond kids. mertle >>I could say that just having children has ruined my life in some >ways, although certainly not in other ways, it certainly has its >positive side It takes a village (or at least extended >family) to help raise a child, but that is not there for most of us. _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2001 Report Share Posted April 12, 2001 I'm hardly at all involved in London Vegans, but I will certainly send their details of events which we receive. Lesley > Hi there Lesley, > > Is it you who run the Vegan London's arrangements? I just wonder if you > please can send me the program, I live in Leeds but go down to London every > now and again and would love to meet up with other vegans. Thanks! > LOVE > Sandra > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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