Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Judging by your reaction to honey, that'd be why she's an ex? he he . Cool it! The actual definition of Vegan says honey is left to the individuals conscious. I fail to see the relevance to the meat statement. Why 'Should' I have a problem with it? What is Rowse, I assume it's an English honey making company. I consider that FF'ed if that's the case. I wouldn't buy honey from the supermarket! No one is a perfect vegan, you'll never completely remove your self from the animal industry. I do my best to. Eaten mushrooms grown on dung recently? Do I not eat the crops the honey bee's pollinate? I'm well aware of the bee's do that anyway argument. alwbarnes [alwbarnes] 19 April 2001 17:12 vegan-network Re: RE: RE: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens Making mistakes about non-vegan food is one thing, eating honey and knowing you 'should' have a problem with it cannot be excused by saying your mother's girlfriend collects it. I know vegans whose actual parents eat meat. Crazy they can be vegan, eh? My ex girlfriends dad makes honey for Rowse. She became vegan before she met me. I am sick and tired of people saying I am a 'vegan' BUT or I am a 'veggie' BUT, Sort it out. If you believe in something you will do it. > There was both one moment that made me veggie and one that made me vegan. >-Veggie, land rape, meat stats, Heath etc. Read a Hindu type book given to >me at a veggie Chinese restaurant. > >-Total Veg diet, linked all other animal products to above stats. >A tinsy bit later became aware of Veganism. Still eat honey cause my G.F's >mother collects it as a hobby, so no nasty F.F'ed honey. I'll also eat food >with honey listed on the ingredients, as long as it's not a main ingredient. >Normally it's added in such minute quantities that it's just so they can >list it. > > >mr big [pervyempire] >19 April 2001 15:23 >vegan-network >Re: RE: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > > >As I said before....could someone...preferably an (aggitated at non vegans >lack of veganism) person, please explain to me how they came to being vegan. > >Did all this knowledge of animal abuse, land rape etc, occur in an >instance???....did you one day read that mankind was very bad and that >eating animals was wrong and suddenly decide to become a vegan??? > >I haven't met anyone like that ever...well, apart from fashion victims of >coarse. > >I'm not arguing for or against any approach to promoting veganism, but it >would really be interesting to know how people who I assume have went >through a process expect to find everyone else at the other end when they >get there. > >Anyone: was there one moment that made you become vegan??...or even veggie?? > > > >If so, then bottle it and give it away!!! > > > > >alwbarnes >vegan-network >vegan-network >Re: RE: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens >Thu, 19 Apr 2001 13:11:32 GMT+01:00 > >I did try to say that my 'comments' were aggravated. > >I by no means suggest they are the only words that 'we' should say to >'them'. > >However - it is not difficult to go vegan today but it is difficult to >bring changes in society. >Going Vegan is personal, it does not require anyone else to do anything. >To have an ecobased system requres changing the will of others. > >What gets me is that 'people' are under some sort of impression that going >vegan is to be the hardest thing ever. > >It takes no account of the boycotting companies saga one will be dragged >towards following. > >GOING VEGAN IS NOT A BIG THING (for those who aren't) >---GET ON WITH IT--- >It is the easiest thing to do to NOt HELP the destruction of the planet and > >it's inhabitants. > > > > >I am a hypocrite... > > > >Untilthe day I sit smugly in my Earth sheltered dwelling, > >withit's compost toilet, passive solar heating and vegan-organic > >permaculturegarden, when all of my day-to-day goods > >througha LET scheme, and I work in a co-operative designing > >coolecosoftware. (and loads of other stuff) > > > >Weare all on a path (veggies included), and there is always someone > >aheadof us on that path - in whose eyes we are hypocrites. > > > >Let'sbe nice to those 'behind' us, give them help and encouragement, > >andhope from the same from the people up in front of us. > > > >Cheers > >Matt > > > > > > > >------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Hannah Have a great rest on your boat .Ive,always fancied that life style.I rarely get belly ache but if I do its always because ive overdosed on protein[too many nuts or too much peanut butter] I have to eat 2/3 apples to counteract the effect.It works for me My children never got colic as babies yet it seems " normal " for Babies of animal eaters.I think there is a connection there too. Angie - " Hannah Biddle " <hannah <vegan-network > Thursday, April 19, 2001 12:32 PM Re: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > Angie - > My daughter will be a life vegan. > She found the change difficult too, but at seventeen months old she is > really adaptable and it took only a few weeks for her stomach to adjust. She > poos twice a day now and people keep stopping me wherever we go together and > ask what I feed her on because she is so healthy, intelligent, happy & > alive! Just before we went vegan she had had nappy rash for about two > months, which was bleeding and sore. Within a week of replacing dairy with > home-made soy milk, & lavender oil instead of shop-bought-nappy-cream, it > had cleared up & never returned. It is definitely healthier. > As for me, my partner has been feeding me echinacea and slippery elm the > last few days. I'd really recommend it for anyone who gets belly ache for > whatever reason. You can cope with the taste if you mix it with some stock > or bouillion as a drink. I'm just about better now so I can look forward to > feeling good this summer - both ethically and physically. Although, until I > stop using plastic & fossil fuels, & money altogether - I don't think I'll > ever really feel ethical either... > I haven't had a fry up in ages. Good idea. Do you have a recipie for vegan > chocolate cake you could post on the net? I've made lots of > oat & apple & banana & walnut creations of late which are great - but I do fancy a > good bog standard bad-for-you chocolate cake. > > > Mr Big - > thankyou too for your kind comments. > You would be welcome if you stopped by in Cambridge - but if you do please > let me cook for you ! I do eat well, my body's just been angry at me with > all the changes & stress over the past year (homelessness & squatting, death > threats to my baby over mistakes made by a nutter, doing karmically really > bad jobs to get rid of suffocating debt - Dave dislocating his knee - you > know, the usual shit one goes through when living in Babylon,) and I think a > change in diet (when we moved onto Eva, our new boat & moved to a nicer city > & an 'ethical' job working for the homeless,) was just too much for it - > even though all the change was for the better. > I stocked up on wholemeal flour & herbs & Tofu today while skiiving on my > way into work, & am on holiday on our boat in the fens next week, so we will > be living on home-made wholemeal bread and fresh & dried fruit & nuts & veg > for a week with loads of fresh air & open space by the river. I am really > strong as it goes, but change can be hard for everyone sometimes. > I can't usually afford organic food - especially since I'm not being paid at > the moment! ~I think the only real solution would be to grow our own. Might > give it a go. > > Hannah x > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2001 Report Share Posted April 19, 2001 Well said Andrew! I became vegan overnight,knowing no veggies let alone vegans. It wasn't that hard once I discovered I wasn't going to die,even tho'it meant no cereals.There was no milk,and no cheese no ice cream!!! It was not as easy as it is now but if you want to do it you will. Angie - <alwbarnes <vegan-network > Thursday, April 19, 2001 2:11 PM Re: RE: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > I did try to say that my 'comments' were aggravated. > > I by no means suggest they are the only words that 'we' should say to 'them'. > > However - it is not difficult to go vegan today but it is difficult to bring changes in society. > Going Vegan is personal, it does not require anyone else to do anything. > To have an ecobased system requres changing the will of others. > > What gets me is that 'people' are under some sort of impression that going vegan is to be the hardest thing ever. > > It takes no account of the boycotting companies saga one will be dragged towards following. > > GOING VEGAN IS NOT A BIG THING (for those who aren't) > ---GET ON WITH IT--- > It is the easiest thing to do to NOt HELP the destruction of the planet and it's inhabitants. > > > > >I am a hypocrite... > > > >Untilthe day I sit smugly in my Earth sheltered dwelling, > >withit's compost toilet, passive solar heating and vegan-organic > >permaculturegarden, when all of my day-to-day goods > >througha LET scheme, and I work in a co-operative designing > >coolecosoftware. (and loads of other stuff) > > > >Weare all on a path (veggies included), and there is always someone > >aheadof us on that path - in whose eyes we are hypocrites. > > > >Let'sbe nice to those 'behind' us, give them help and encouragement, > >andhope from the same from the people up in front of us. > > > >Cheers > >Matt > > > > > > > >------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 Sounds like an excellent idea. I've found it pretty difficult to find work that's worth doing AND you can earn a minimal living doing it. > > I have been searching as I graduate next month but > you have to visit every > website of every company to check for vacancies. > Many don't even tell you > and so mails get sent --more hassle. > > I am considering setting up Ethical Recruitment > where you can specify > 'animal rights, human rights, sustainability, > poverty, children's rights etc > and then search for jobs on that basis rather than > simply £££, place and > sector. > > Please help. > > If nobody knows of one then ... > ..............Does anyone want to be part of the 1st > Ethical Recruitment > Agency??? > > > Andy > > Andrew Barnes > 07970 075905 > > -------------------- > talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the > net at > http://www.talk21.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 If you want to give Jade a sibling without adding any more to the population numbers, why not consider adopting? I know of some vegans not too far from you (Letchworth) who have adopted a little girl. This way a child is brought up vegan who otherwise would not be given this advantageous start in life, so vegans adopting children is a very positive choice! If I had thought out the issues before having my own children, I might have considered it myself, especially if I had been infertile, but it's a bit late now in my case. I actually gave this couple your email address because of your plans to start an alternative families group in your area, and there is nothing very near them and they are very short of like-minded friends locally. They might be contacting you, if they have not already. We meant to stop at population replacement level and have only two children, but it isn't turning out that way with number three expected. I am comforted by knowing several vegan families with three children, and I don't think the actual numbers of population are the problem, it's how most people choose to live that is the problem. Vegan farming can sustain a much larger population than omnivorous farming, so I don't really think that vegans should feel too guilty if they have more than one, or even more than two children. Lesley > I know the human population is overcrowded - that's why I'm only having one child, even though I wish I could have a second child as we > are really isolated here & Jade could do with a brother or sister- but ethically I don't think its fair to create more humans. But for the > people who are alive today - why persecute them just for being human? Its something we all have to live with and make the best of > until we change this system for the better and start making humanity something that is positive rather than destructive. This system we > live in is bad for both humans and animals - so why let them make us hate each other instead of standing together for the beliefs we do > have in common? > > Hannah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 I dont feel guilty about having 4 children but I do feel guilty at failing to produce females but thats not down to me is it ? I should have ditched my Ex a long time ago and got a new model!!!!! Angie - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Friday, April 20, 2001 6:29 PM Re: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > > If you want to give Jade a sibling without adding any more to the > population numbers, why not consider adopting? I know of some vegans > not too far from you (Letchworth) who have adopted a little girl. > This way a child is brought up vegan who otherwise would not be given > this advantageous start in life, so vegans adopting children is a > very positive choice! If I had thought out the issues before having > my own children, I might have considered it myself, especially if I > had been infertile, but it's a bit late now in my case. > I actually gave this couple your email address because of your plans > to start an alternative families group in your area, and there is > nothing very near them and they are very short of like-minded friends > locally. > They might be contacting you, if they have not already. > > We meant to stop at population replacement level and have only two > children, but it isn't turning out that way with number three > expected. I am comforted by knowing several vegan families with three > children, and I don't think the actual numbers of population are the > problem, it's how most people choose to live that is the problem. > Vegan farming can sustain a much larger population than omnivorous > farming, so I don't really think that vegans should feel too guilty > if they have more than one, or even more than two children. > > Lesley > > > > I know the human population is overcrowded - that's why I'm only > having one child, even though I wish I could have a second child as > we > > are really isolated here & Jade could do with a brother or sister- > but ethically I don't think its fair to create more humans. But for > the > > people who are alive today - why persecute them just for being > human? Its something we all have to live with and make the best of > > until we change this system for the better and start making > humanity something that is positive rather than destructive. This > system we > > live in is bad for both humans and animals - so why let them make > us hate each other instead of standing together for the beliefs we do > > have in common? > > > > Hannah. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2001 Report Share Posted April 20, 2001 It's not really the man's fault that his sperm might have been unbalanced in favour of producing boys. It could even be down to chance, and the time of the month you time trying to conceive apparently can make a difference, such factors as whether you are trying just before or just after ovulation. Anyway there are natural ways of increasing the chances of having a girl, but maybe they weren't written about or scientifically proven at the time. Vegetarians are more likely to have girls, and butchers are more likely to father boys, but I noticed that everyone in the group of vegan families meeting the other day in Nottingham had at least one boy, but only two of us had girls. Not sure if the figures for vegetarians apply to vegans, dairy might be a factor. Even with natural methods, we all know that these things are not altogether under voluntary control, it's all down to nature or god depending on your beliefs, and it may be a little unfair to bash the man for this, although you might well have other reasons of your own for criticising your ex! Did you ever consider trying to adopt a girl? I did leave my first husband and that was partly because he wasn't sure he ever wanted children at all, but he conveniently forgot to mention his doubts until about a year after we were married, even though he had known for some time before we were married that I wanted one or maybe two children. I had told him this and I took his lack of objection to mean he agreed! Silly me! I felt hurt and defrauded into marrying him. I bet he knew I wouldn't marry him if he had said he wasn't interested in having a family, so he was sneaky and lied by omission. He wasn't a real vegan anyway, because when I left him he started back on his old lacto-ovo vegetarian ways (I was OK with that for some time before we married, after which he did go vegan) but the worst is that he even reverted to eating fish for a while after I left him (maybe he did it to spite me, but I refused to feel guilty about his choices, which were 100% down to him, even though he would not have eaten fish again if I hadn't left him). I hope none of his friends are on this list, eek!! Most of them are actually true vegans, and very nice people, but I think I was seen as the bad person by most of them because I left him for my second husband. Lesley > I dont feel guilty about having 4 children but I do feel guilty at failing > to produce females but thats not down to me is it ? I should have ditched my > Ex a long time ago and got a new model!!!!! Angie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 We all make some mistakes and there is no point in staying with someone if you dont get on ,especially if you can't agree on fundamental issues like whether you want to try to make babies111I never considered adopting because i got pregnant so easily.by the time i realised ex could only make boys{ilike blaming him as i used to hate the obsession men of old had with having sons and heirs ,girls were considered inferior,so i emphasise my failure to produce the ultimate-a girl- to get my own back I was probably too old to adopt and I didn't think they'd accept vegans so I'm pleased to discover they have Angie] - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Friday, April 20, 2001 10:49 PM Re: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > > It's not really the man's fault that his sperm might have been > unbalanced in favour of producing boys. It could even be down to > chance, and the time of the month you time trying to conceive > apparently can make a difference, such factors as whether you are > trying just before or just after ovulation. Anyway there are natural > ways of increasing the chances of having a girl, but maybe they > weren't written about or scientifically proven at the time. > Vegetarians are more likely to have girls, and butchers are more > likely to father boys, but I noticed that everyone in the group of > vegan families meeting the other day in Nottingham had at least one > boy, but only two of us had girls. Not sure if the figures for > vegetarians apply to vegans, dairy might be a factor. Even with > natural methods, we all know that these things are not altogether > under voluntary control, it's all down to nature or god depending on > your beliefs, and it may be a little unfair to bash the man for this, > although you might well have other reasons of your own for > criticising your ex! > Did you ever consider trying to adopt a girl? > > I did leave my first husband and that was partly because he wasn't > sure he ever wanted children at all, but he conveniently forgot to > mention his doubts until about a year after we were married, even > though he had known for some time before we were married that I > wanted one or maybe two children. I had told him this and I took his > lack of objection to mean he agreed! Silly me! I felt hurt and > defrauded into marrying him. I bet he knew I wouldn't marry him if he > had said he wasn't interested in having a family, so he was sneaky > and lied by omission. > > He wasn't a real vegan anyway, because when I left him he started > back on his old lacto-ovo vegetarian ways (I was OK with that for > some time before we married, after which he did go vegan) but the > worst is that he even reverted to eating fish for a while after I > left him (maybe he did it to spite me, but I refused to feel guilty > about his choices, which were 100% down to him, even though he would > not have eaten fish again if I hadn't left him). > > I hope none of his friends are on this list, eek!! Most of them are > actually true vegans, and very nice people, but I think I was seen as > the bad person by most of them because I left him for my second > husband. > > Lesley > > > > I dont feel guilty about having 4 children but I do feel guilty at > failing > > to produce females but thats not down to me is it ? I should have > ditched my > > Ex a long time ago and got a new model!!!!! Angie > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Great thread... go back look at the discussion topics under this subject heading: ethics, poo, sperm, babies, honey, chocolate cake, fry ups, over-population, dung, environmentalism, jobs .... :`-) This group is great!!! By the way I became Vegan overnight. It was very simple, I thought for the first time about my reasons for eating cruelty products, looked at the environmental and health advantages of being vegan and didn't look back. I feel a bit stupid that I hadn't done it earlier. (I still eat things with honey in). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 > (I still eat things with > >honeyin). > > > well then you are not a vegan. > The reason for me that we do not eat honey is similar to that of free range eggs. > When a hen comes back to its nest and finds any eggs missing it always lays more to compensate. > We don't know but incase bees do the same - Is it a problem if a bee does the same? Do they work as individuals with a central nervous system, or collectively? Do we know? Should we also give up sugar as its production badly damages ecosystems that in turn causes non human animals to suffer and some to become endagered. We tread a fine line with honey, I'll bear it in mind next time I'm shopping. :-( Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 .. We tread a fine line > with honey, Sorry to reply to my own message but a little research should have been done before I spoke. the line is not so fine.... If you're interested in reasons NOT to eat honey other than eggs etc see Peta's factsheet. http://www.peta.com/mc/facts/fsveg11.html (Humbly) Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 (I still eat things with >honeyin). > well then you are not a vegan. The reason for me that we do not eat honey is similar to that of free range eggs. When a hen comes back to its nest and finds any eggs missing it always lays more to compensate. We don't know but incase bees do the same - lets leave them alone, eh? Honey cannot be all that wonderful. >Great thread... go back look at the discussion topics under this subject >heading >ethics poo, sperm, babies, honey, chocolate cake, fry ups, over-population, >dung environmentalism, jobs .... :`-) >Thisgroup is great!!! >By the way I became Vegan overnight. It was very simple, I thought for the >firsttime about my reasons for eating cruelty products, looked at the >environmentaland health advantages of being vegan and didn't look back. I >feela bit stupid that I hadn't done it earlier. (I still eat things with >honeyin). > > >------------------------ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 It would actually be illegal now to discriminate against vegans, and for social services to tell them that they can't adopt just because they are vegan would be grounds for suing, because the Human Rights Act was created to protect minorities from religious discrimination and general beliefs-based discrimination even when the belief is not commonly understood to be religious. I would like to see more vegans using this law through the courts when they face discrimination. Of course social services can probably be quite sneaky and try to find other reasons to cite for rejecting vegan prospective adoptive parents, so the challenge would always be proving the discrimination. Unfortunately when our doctor struck us off for our vegan stance in refusing Jonathan's vaccinations, it was before the Human Rights Act so I couldn't have taken a test case against the Department of Health, wish I could have though! I like the idea of taking on and beating a government department or some big evil company through the courts and winning. We had the right to have a doctor assigned to us anyway, but it can be a hassle being forced to travel further to a doctor's surgery especially with kids, and we don't drive. Prior to the introduction of this law, it was perfectly legal to discriminate on the grounds of belief or religion, believe it or not, although there was protection against race and gender discrimination for several years before this law was introduced. This law is well overdue and we vegans should use it to the maximum advantage. I believe that vegans are mostly more fertile than average, because we don't get all those nasty hormones from dairy products, which is probably a bit like being on the pill. It's only a matter of time before a study is done which proves that we are less likely than omnis and even lacto-vegetarians to be infertile. The proof is already there when it comes to heart disease, bowel cancer, etc. Lesley > We all make some mistakes and there is no point in staying with someone if > you dont get on ,especially if you can't agree on fundamental issues like > whether you want to try to make babies111I never considered adopting because > i got pregnant so easily.by the time i realised ex could only make > boys{ilike blaming him as i used to hate the obsession men of old had with > having sons and heirs ,girls were considered inferior,so i emphasise my > failure to produce the ultimate-a girl- to get my own back I was probably > too old to adopt and I didn't think they'd accept vegans so I'm pleased to > discover they have Angie] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Hey there lesley. Back from hols & catching up on mesages.... It was lovely to meet you at the picnic in London a week ago. For those who missed out it was a lovely sunny day - Jade & I really enjoyed meeting other vegans and seeing how healthy and smiley everyone was. Jade especially loved playing in the sandpit - which she has never been able to do before, and the woods were beautigul out in blossom & fressh leaves.... On adoption, yes - I'd love to adopt - I was adopted myself & it worked really well. I'd love the chance to give back some to a kid in a similar situation to that which I was in. The only difficulty I would have, I think, would be convincing the authorities that my boat is a fit place for a child. I know that Jade is happy and healthy and benefits hugely from where & how we live - but when she was born, the health visitors refused to even do home visits because they thought it was too dangerous for them to get on board the boat! (Shows how much they cared about Jade.) I don't think veganism would cause a problem with adopting now the human rights act is in place~ but I think that living in a way that it free is the thing that they would not accept - although they would probably find other excuses to turn us down rather than admit this openly. Its like racism in some ways - discrimination on the grounds of ethics and life style choice are grounds for discrimination, but never admitted in an official capacity. (Except by Tory mps in recent debate.) H - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Saturday, April 21, 2001 10:52 AM Re: Hypocrites, the selfish and vegetariens > > It would actually be illegal now to discriminate against vegans, and > for social services to tell them that they can't adopt just because > they are vegan would be grounds for suing, because the Human Rights > Act was created to protect minorities from religious discrimination > and general beliefs-based discrimination even when the belief is not > commonly understood to be religious. > I would like to see more vegans using this law through the courts > when they face discrimination. Of course social services can probably > be quite sneaky and try to find other reasons to cite for rejecting > vegan prospective adoptive parents, so the challenge would always be > proving the discrimination. > Unfortunately when our doctor struck us off for our vegan stance in > refusing Jonathan's vaccinations, it was before the Human Rights Act > so I couldn't have taken a test case against the Department of > Health, wish I could have though! I like the idea of taking on and > beating a government department or some big evil company through the > courts and winning. We had the right to have a doctor assigned to us > anyway, but it can be a hassle being forced to travel further to a > doctor's surgery especially with kids, and we don't drive. > > Prior to the introduction of this law, it was perfectly legal to > discriminate on the grounds of belief or religion, believe it or not, > although there was protection against race and gender discrimination > for several years before this law was introduced. > This law is well overdue and we vegans should use it to the maximum > advantage. > > I believe that vegans are mostly more fertile than average, because > we don't get all those nasty hormones from dairy products, which is > probably a bit like being on the pill. > It's only a matter of time before a study is done which proves that > we are less likely than omnis and even lacto-vegetarians to be > infertile. The proof is already there when it comes to heart disease, > bowel cancer, etc. > > Lesley > > > > We all make some mistakes and there is no point in staying with > someone if > > you dont get on ,especially if you can't agree on fundamental > issues like > > whether you want to try to make babies111I never considered > adopting because > > i got pregnant so easily.by the time i realised ex could only make > > boys{ilike blaming him as i used to hate the obsession men of old > had with > > having sons and heirs ,girls were considered inferior,so i > emphasise my > > failure to produce the ultimate-a girl- to get my own back I was > probably > > too old to adopt and I didn't think they'd accept vegans so I'm > pleased to > > discover they have Angie] > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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