Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 >> * how many non-white people are on this list ? > >Who cares? This sounds like a corporate statistic questonaire. > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just brave enough to look at this issue in its entirety. * veganism seems to be a very " white " thing. [ although in the UK, this may just be a " class " thing and we do not have a very well established black professional/middle class as they have in America ]. i am really interested to know why and i am interested to to hear the experience of other people from ethnic backgrounds different from my own. its is part of trying to understand the factor involved in the creation of a vegan. i would be very interested to read a demographic analysis of veganism around the world, has one be done? i reckon, in the West at least, it would be 99% a white thing and one could not discount such a disproportionately representative figure. i am equally interested to know why other ethnic groups do not adopt veganism so readily and the factors involved in that. this would be useful for outreach/campaign purposes. an issue i would like to pick up on later. it would be intriguing to examine the subconscious messages " the collective vegan " is sending out to the world or being perceived to send out. if " we/it " are saying that non-vegans are " less enlightened " , " less educated " , " less caring " , " more caring " ; are we saying that Black, Hispanic or Asian are " less enlightened " , " less educated " , " more brutal " , " more selfish " . that would seem to be the irrefutable logic of such statements, the subtext that we are unaware of. or else perhaps the message needs to be tempered. i am also interested in the experience of non-whites in such a white dominated group. do they feel excluded, have they experienced covert racism and so on. how many black people do you know that work for one of the societies? now and again it is good to hold up a mirror and look at one's self honesty. i think that there a few black Seventh Day Adventists but that is a religious group i find strangely segregated. and i know that if you were to go to the Far East you would find many vegan Buddhist - not knowing that they were vegans thinking that they were vegetarians [ - hooray! ]. i dont know of any such traditions in African society. i would only expect to find a few in India where the cow and cow juice has holy status. [ and none in France where cheese is matter of patriotism ]. >> * how many people use non-Windows PCs [ i.e. Unix or Mac OS ] ? >> win ME for all it matters > >> this could be interesting. > >Why? you are sounding defensive. on a personal level because i tend to discover that i have more in common with Mac or Linux heads. i am trying to find commonality within this group. with relevance to this list because it goes along with the discussion of where do you " end your ethics " ... how far do you apply them ... how much do you have in the first place ... how enlightened is one ? in many ways, giving your money to Microsoft is on a par with giving money to British American Tobacco or Coca Cola. the issue of ethics and environmentalism in the cyber age is something i am also aware of. [ applying ethical and environmentalist tendancies to cyber issues. sorry i can think of a better word that cyber ]. even though we unite as " vegans " , amongst us there are difference. i find those more interesting. there is something about computing technology that is so close to the human psyche - as it is one of the finest attempts yet at representation and replication of the human psyche. there is something very personal about one's computer. remember, we meet not as vegan but as " e-vegans " , quite a new creation. and what are these beasts? as the medium through which we meet without a doubt colours our communication, i am interested to know what colours are being mixed in. i can do psychic readings of your personality type if you just tell me what computer, OS, screensaver and how many root directories you have. do you want to know what the future holds? john > I have to agree Tom and Joanna. I didn't understand the reasoning for > this, certainly in a day and age when we shouldn't be bothered about > people's skin colour! We're all vegan. We all love animals and respect > our health. That's what counts! fear and denial of the awful discoveries that might lie within. jane, you are eating more because of a comfort issue. you are choosing to eat very stimultaing food. as you become vegan you have to become accustomed to a far lower level of dietary stimulation than you had before. protein is very stimulating to the body. oily foods take the place that milky foods occupied. try the cold turkey route and just say no! it is tough but strengthening. if you dont you will just end up big and fat and eating tubs of ice cream, really not much further down the road than an ordinary joe or joe-ess. > Braggs Liquid Aminos can buy it in London so the wholefood distributors must have it. ask even at Holland and barrett. i think it is Australian and will check the brand next time I am down at Spitalfield Market. any Mac or OSS heads out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 Fear and denial? Is that how you interpret what I said? I have nothing to fear! I simply did not and do not see the reasoning behind the question of " non whites " . When you look at someone do you look at their colour or do you look at them as a person? Your post was way too heavy! I didn't realise that was what this list was about. You could put people off with your extremely opinionated and, forgive me, rude comments. You seem to be an intellect. Perhaps your preaching would be better suited to some way out university somewhere! And, lastly, I may have decided to become a vegan so as not to be part of any cruelty to animals but it doesn't mean that I have to go " cold turkey " and live some sort of miserable life where I said " no! " to food if I fancy something. You might like to inflict some sort of hard regime on yourself, but I have to realise that life is for living and enjoyment too! I think I'll stick to the aerobics classes, thanks! - " john allan " <jallan <vegan-network > Sunday, April 22, 2001 9:54 PM re: Ku Klux Vegans vs Open Source Omnivores > >> * how many non-white people are on this list ? > > > >Who cares? This sounds like a corporate statistic questonaire. > > > > > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just brave > enough to look at this issue in its entirety. > > * veganism seems to be a very " white " thing. [ although in the UK, this > may just be a " class " thing and we do not have a very well established > black professional/middle class as they have in America ]. > > i am really interested to know why and i am interested to to hear the > experience of other people from ethnic backgrounds different from my own. > its is part of trying to understand the factor involved in the creation > of a vegan. i would be very interested to read a demographic analysis of > veganism around the world, has one be done? i reckon, in the West at > least, it would be 99% a white thing and one could not discount such a > disproportionately representative figure. > > i am equally interested to know why other ethnic groups do not adopt > veganism so readily and the factors involved in that. this would be > useful for outreach/campaign purposes. an issue i would like to pick up > on later. it would be intriguing to examine the subconscious messages > " the collective vegan " is sending out to the world or being perceived to > send out. > > if " we/it " are saying that non-vegans are " less enlightened " , " less > educated " , " less caring " , " more caring " ; are we saying that Black, > Hispanic or Asian are " less enlightened " , " less educated " , " more brutal " , > " more selfish " . that would seem to be the irrefutable logic of such > statements, the subtext that we are unaware of. > > or else perhaps the message needs to be tempered. > > i am also interested in the experience of non-whites in such a white > dominated group. do they feel excluded, have they experienced covert > racism and so on. how many black people do you know that work for one of > the societies? now and again it is good to hold up a mirror and look at > one's self honesty. > > i think that there a few black Seventh Day Adventists but that is a > religious group i find strangely segregated. and i know that if you were > to go to the Far East you would find many vegan Buddhist - not knowing > that they were vegans thinking that they were vegetarians [ - hooray! ]. > i dont know of any such traditions in African society. i would only > expect to find a few in India where the cow and cow juice has holy > status. [ and none in France where cheese is matter of patriotism ]. > > >> * how many people use non-Windows PCs [ i.e. Unix or Mac OS ] ? > >> win ME for all it matters > > > >> this could be interesting. > > > >Why? > > you are sounding defensive. > > on a personal level because i tend to discover that i have more in common > with Mac or Linux heads. i am trying to find commonality within this > group. > > with relevance to this list because it goes along with the discussion of > where do you " end your ethics " ... how far do you apply them ... how > much do you have in the first place ... how enlightened is one ? > > in many ways, giving your money to Microsoft is on a par with giving > money to British American Tobacco or Coca Cola. the issue of ethics and > environmentalism in the cyber age is something i am also aware of. [ > applying ethical and environmentalist tendancies to cyber issues. sorry i > can think of a better word that cyber ]. > > even though we unite as " vegans " , amongst us there are difference. i find > those more interesting. > > there is something about computing technology that is so close to the > human psyche - as it is one of the finest attempts yet at representation > and replication of the human psyche. there is something very personal > about one's computer. remember, we meet not as vegan but as " e-vegans " , > quite a new creation. and what are these beasts? > > as the medium through which we meet without a doubt colours our > communication, i am interested to know what colours are being mixed in. i > can do psychic readings of your personality type if you just tell me what > computer, OS, screensaver and how many root directories you have. > > do you want to know what the future holds? > > john > > > I have to agree Tom and Joanna. I didn't understand the reasoning for > > this, certainly in a day and age when we shouldn't be bothered about > > people's skin colour! We're all vegan. We all love animals and respect > > our health. That's what counts! > > fear and denial of the awful discoveries that might lie within. > > jane, you are eating more because of a comfort issue. you are choosing to > eat very stimultaing food. as you become vegan you have to become > accustomed to a far lower level of dietary stimulation than you had > before. protein is very stimulating to the body. oily foods take the > place that milky foods occupied. > > try the cold turkey route and just say no! it is tough but strengthening. > if you dont you will just end up big and fat and eating tubs of ice > cream, really not much further down the road than an ordinary joe or > joe-ess. > > > Braggs Liquid Aminos > > can buy it in London so the wholefood distributors must have it. ask even > at Holland and barrett. i think it is Australian and will check the brand > next time I am down at Spitalfield Market. > > any Mac or OSS heads out there? > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2001 Report Share Posted April 22, 2001 > >> * how many non-white people are on this list ?> > > >Who cares? This sounds like a corporate statistic questonaire.> >> > > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just brave > enough to look at this issue in its entirety.> > * veganism seems to be a very " white " thing. [ although in the UK, this > may just be a " class " thing and we do not have a very well established > black professional/middle class as they have in America ].Your use of the word "seems" shows an assumption that veganism is a (as you call it) "white thing". These sorts of assumptions are dangerous in their nature particulalry if you go on to say > if " we/it " are saying that non-vegans are "less enlightened", "less > educated", "less caring", "more caring"; are we saying that Black, > Hispanic or Asian are "less enlightened", "less educated", "more brutal", > "more selfish". that would seem to be the irrefutable logic of such > statements, the subtext that we are unaware of. Vegans are vegans, they are not superior. Creating a prejudice of any sort will not get us anywhere, half the reason behind most people's veganism is to defeat prejudice against non-human animals.> i am really interested to know why and i am interested to to hear the > experience of other people from ethnic backgrounds different from my own. > its is part of trying to understand the factor involved in the creation > of a vegan. i would be very interested to read a demographic analysis of > veganism around the world, has one be done? So look for one, I found a poll of US vegetarians in seconds (using windows ME --sorry this is being defensive :-, ) >i reckon, in the West at least, it would be 99% a white thing and one could not discount such a > disproportionately representative figure. Assumptoins are not very helpful. > i am also interested in the experience of non-whites in such a white > dominated group. do they feel excluded, have they experienced covert > racism and so on. how many black people do you know that work for one of > the societies? now and again it is good to hold up a mirror and look at > one's self honesty.Who says it's white dominated? How many people do you know that work for any societies? > i think that there a few black Seventh Day Adventists but that is a > religious group i find strangely segregated. and i know that if you were > to go to the Far East you would find many vegan Buddhist - not knowing > that they were vegans thinking that they were vegetarians [ - hooray! ]. > i dont know of any such traditions in African society. i would only > expect to find a few in India where the cow and cow juice has holy > status. [ and none in France where cheese is matter of patriotism ]. Please see this page for the extent of vegetarianism globally, remembering of course that this only includes groups/countries who are members. http://www.ivu.org/global/index.html> > >> * how many people use non-Windows PCs [ i.e. Unix or Mac OS ] ?> >> win ME for all it matters> >> >> this could be interesting.> >> >Why?> > you are sounding defensive.> > on a personal level because i tend to discover that i have more in common > with Mac or Linux heads. i am trying to find commonality within this > group.Broaden your horizons, some of us buy PCs that are available on the market and don't have time or money to buy new OSs. (Macintosh is very expensive in Portugal) > with relevance to this list because it goes along with the discussion of > where do you " end your ethics " ... how far do you apply them ... how > much do you have in the first place ... how enlightened is one ? > > in many ways, giving your money to Microsoft is on a par with giving > money to British American Tobacco or Coca Cola. the issue of ethics and > environmentalism in the cyber age is something i am also aware of. [ > applying ethical and environmentalist tendancies to cyber issues. sorry i > can think of a better word that cyber ].Another assumption, yes Microsoft is annoying, yes its got pushy marketing tactics. I wouldn't put it past Apple to be equally unethical or unenvironmental. > fear and denial of the awful discoveries that might lie within. Which awful discoveries are you refering to? > jane, you are eating more because of a comfort issue. you are choosing to > eat very stimultaing food. as you become vegan you have to become > accustomed to a far lower level of dietary stimulation than you had > before. protein is very stimulating to the body. oily foods take the > place that milky foods occupied. > > try the cold turkey route and just say no! it is tough but strengthening. > if you dont you will just end up big and fat and eating tubs of ice > cream, really not much further down the road than an ordinary joe or > joe-ess.There's nothing wrong with an ordinary Joe or Joe-ess, or with big and fat. Vegans are vegans, it's bad enough that we have to be categorized as it is. It's a crying shame there aren't more of us, if there were more vegans than meatties the world (ie media and popular belief) wouldn't bother categorizing us and would make meatties feel bad instead. 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Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Nice Responce Jane...this list is about lot`s of vegans gobbing off their opinions and amusing, annoying, frustrating and hopefully enlightening eachother on occassion. I hope you hang around and maybe one day I will enlighten you MrBig _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Tom and Joe...you are clear minded folk! xoxoxo MrBIg _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 I will hang around Mr Big, but I was nearly put off this evening! Thanks for convincing me to stay! - " mr big " <pervyempire <vegan-network > Monday, April 23, 2001 12:28 AM Re: re: Ku Klux Vegans vs Open Source Omnivores > Nice Responce Jane...this list is about lot`s of vegans gobbing off their > opinions and amusing, annoying, frustrating and hopefully enlightening > eachother on occassion. > > I hope you hang around and maybe one day I will enlighten you > > > MrBig > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just brave > enough to look at this issue in its entirety. > Quite right John, the vegan groups indeed do not attract the great diversity which would be expected in such a mixed society. I can't believe the defensive attitudes from certain people on this list. > > * veganism seems to be a very " white " thing. [ although in the UK, this > may just be a " class " thing and we do not have a very well established > black professional/middle class as they have in America ]. > > i am really interested to know why and i am interested to to hear the > experience of other people from ethnic backgrounds different from my own. > its is part of trying to understand the factor involved in the creation > of a vegan. i would be very interested to read a demographic analysis of > veganism around the world, has one be done? i reckon, in the West at > least, it would be 99% a white thing and one could not discount such a > disproportionately representative figure. > I wonder if maybe the non-whites do adopt veganism but are for some reason less likely to get involved in vegan groups. Maybe they have stronger vegan-friendly communities (eg 7th Day Adventists, Rastafarians) and feel less need for the vegan movement? > > i am equally interested to know why other ethnic groups do not adopt > veganism so readily and the factors involved in that. this would be > useful for outreach/campaign purposes. an issue i would like to pick up > on later. it would be intriguing to examine the subconscious messages > " the collective vegan " is sending out to the world or being perceived to > send out. > My personal emphasis is more that the vegan movement and local vegan groups need to reach out better to families and welcome them, and because of my own concerns about the movement not being welcoming and all-inclusive enough, your point about reaching out to varying ethnic groups is well-taken and understood by at least this one person on this list. I finally had to respond when I saw you attacked on all sides for raising this issue. > > if " we/it " are saying that non-vegans are " less enlightened " , " less > educated " , " less caring " , " more caring " ; are we saying that Black, > Hispanic or Asian are " less enlightened " , " less educated " , " more brutal " , > " more selfish " . that would seem to be the irrefutable logic of such > statements, the subtext that we are unaware of. > > or else perhaps the message needs to be tempered. > > i am also interested in the experience of non-whites in such a white > dominated group. do they feel excluded, have they experienced covert > racism and so on. how many black people do you know that work for one of > the societies? now and again it is good to hold up a mirror and look at > one's self honesty. > We had a vegan Rastafarian mum and child at the recent families picnic, so hopefully things are changing in attracting diversity. Unfortunately the vegan families group is also very white-dominated, I am keen to reach out to all vegan families. I've never met a racist vegan as far as I know. > > i think that there a few black Seventh Day Adventists but that is a > religious group i find strangely segregated. and i know that if you were > to go to the Far East you would find many vegan Buddhist - not knowing > that they were vegans thinking that they were vegetarians [ - hooray! ]. > i dont know of any such traditions in African society. i would only > expect to find a few in India where the cow and cow juice has holy > status. [ and none in France where cheese is matter of patriotism ]. > Rastafarians? Many are vegans I think. But don't ask me to get involved in conversation about the techie stuff and Macs etc. I just use hubby's PC, he is the expert! You might as well be talking Martian!! Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Hey Lesley. I think peace and unity is desired right now. Don't turn this into an argument! Let's be friends and agree to disagree! Be happy. Life's too short! :-) ~~ Jane C ~~ - " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, April 23, 2001 3:17 PM Re: Ku Klux Vegans vs Open Source Omnivores > > > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just > brave > > enough to look at this issue in its entirety. > > > Quite right John, the vegan groups indeed do not attract the great > diversity which would be expected in such a mixed society. > I can't believe the defensive attitudes from certain people on this > list. > > > > * veganism seems to be a very " white " thing. [ although in the > UK, this > > may just be a " class " thing and we do not have a very well > established > > black professional/middle class as they have in America ]. > > > > i am really interested to know why and i am interested to to hear > the > > experience of other people from ethnic backgrounds different from > my own. > > its is part of trying to understand the factor involved in the > creation > > of a vegan. i would be very interested to read a demographic > analysis of > > veganism around the world, has one be done? i reckon, in the West > at > > least, it would be 99% a white thing and one could not discount > such a > > disproportionately representative figure. > > > I wonder if maybe the non-whites do adopt veganism but are for some > reason less likely to get involved in vegan groups. Maybe they have > stronger vegan-friendly communities (eg 7th Day Adventists, > Rastafarians) and feel less need for the vegan movement? > > > > i am equally interested to know why other ethnic groups do not > adopt > > veganism so readily and the factors involved in that. this would be > > useful for outreach/campaign purposes. an issue i would like to > pick up > > on later. it would be intriguing to examine the subconscious > messages > > " the collective vegan " is sending out to the world or being > perceived to > > send out. > > > My personal emphasis is more that the vegan movement and local vegan > groups need to reach out better to families and welcome them, and > because of my own concerns about the movement not being welcoming and > all-inclusive enough, your point about reaching out to varying ethnic > groups is well-taken and understood by at least this one person on > this list. I finally had to respond when I saw you attacked on all > sides for raising this issue. > > > > if " we/it " are saying that non-vegans are " less > enlightened " , " less > > educated " , " less caring " , " more caring " ; are we saying that Black, > > Hispanic or Asian are " less enlightened " , " less educated " , " more > brutal " , > > " more selfish " . that would seem to be the irrefutable logic of such > > statements, the subtext that we are unaware of. > > > > or else perhaps the message needs to be tempered. > > > > i am also interested in the experience of non-whites in such a > white > > dominated group. do they feel excluded, have they experienced > covert > > racism and so on. how many black people do you know that work for > one of > > the societies? now and again it is good to hold up a mirror and > look at > > one's self honesty. > > > We had a vegan Rastafarian mum and child at the recent families > picnic, so hopefully things are changing in attracting diversity. > Unfortunately the vegan families group is also very white-dominated, > I am keen to reach out to all vegan families. > I've never met a racist vegan as far as I know. > > > > i think that there a few black Seventh Day Adventists but that is a > > religious group i find strangely segregated. and i know that if you > were > > to go to the Far East you would find many vegan Buddhist - not > knowing > > that they were vegans thinking that they were vegetarians [ - > hooray! ]. > > i dont know of any such traditions in African society. i would only > > expect to find a few in India where the cow and cow juice has holy > > status. [ and none in France where cheese is matter of patriotism ]. > > > Rastafarians? Many are vegans I think. > > But don't ask me to get involved in conversation about the techie > stuff and Macs etc. I just use hubby's PC, he is the expert! You > might as well be talking Martian!! > > Lesley > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 Yes, you're right we should be friends. Sorry, I shouldn't attack you, but I felt with three or four people against John and no-one really understanding where he was coming from, someone had to help let him know that we didn't all think he was being racist. Lesley > Hey Lesley. I think peace and unity is desired right now. Don't turn this > into an argument! Let's be friends and agree to disagree! Be happy. > Life's too short! :-) > > ~~ Jane C ~~ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 > >> * how many people use non-Windows PCs [ i.e. Unix or Mac OS ] ? Atm am having to put up with Windows - we were going to partition our hard drive so we could have some Linux as well, but the computer is my Dad's really and he isn't that familiar with Linux, so hasn't really looked into it properly yet. Soon as I get my own computer i'll put some form of Linux on and I'll use a terminal emulator for any stuff I have to use Windows for - one of my friends does that and it works great. _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2001 Report Share Posted April 23, 2001 - "Lesley Dove" <100706.3632 <vegan-network > Monday, April 23, 2001 3:17 PM Re: Ku Klux Vegans vs Open Source Omnivores > > > cares? no question are care nor prejudice either way. i am just > brave > > enough to look at this issue in its entirety.> > > Quite right John, the vegan groups indeed do not attract the great > diversity which would be expected in such a mixed society. I agree. > I can't believe the defensive attitudes from certain people on this > list. No-one likes myths forming, I still think it's dangerous to believe that one's own culture is unique in a superior manner. I understand where John is coming from though. If it is the case that there aren't many ethnic groups involved in vegan meetings I understand his question, I wish he had worded it to say this. Yes I was defensive because I am sensitive to issues which I feel are important. I do not want to sit back and watch what I believe to be prejudiced remarks pointed at any groups.> >> My personal emphasis is more that the vegan movement and local vegan > groups need to reach out better to families and welcome them, and > because of my own concerns about the movement not being welcoming and > all-inclusive enough, your point about reaching out to varying ethnic > groups is well-taken and understood by at least this one person on > this list. I agree but does that include asking what colour my skin is? > We had a vegan Rastafarian mum and child at the recent families > picnic, so hopefully things are changing in attracting diversity. > Unfortunately the vegan families group is also very white-dominated, > I am keen to reach out to all vegan families.Try going to local centres where different religions meet, find out if there are any picnics/meals and join in. Put an advert up asking for interested people to join a multicultural vegan group. This may be easier. best wishes to all, please don't be offended I am only trying to make sense of some ideas and hopefully stop the creation of myths. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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