the problem with doctors and drug laws

May 6, 2001

It seems such a shame all these marriages are breaking up cos people

think killing animals is so important. That 3:1 vegan statistic makes

me quite scared, im really going to have to hang onto my boyfriend!

Mainly to Lesley:

You say you are against most recreational drug use and people

getting `stoned out of their minds', but does this mean you approve

of alcohol and people getting of their face. I chose to do an essay

on the effects of drugs on the brain for part of my uni course and

the reason for cannabis being such a safe drug and not killing

anybody is to do with lack of receptors in the brain stem which bind

the chemicals. Most other drugs do bind to the brainstem at the base

of the brain and therefore cause long-term damage.

Alcohol has a bad effect on me and I don't like it anyway. I only

drink water in pubs and people think im a freak cos I don't drink. I

think this is a terrible state to be in with most of the population

being fairly dependant on alcohol. It makes people into yobs,

especially football fans. Look at the problems we cause abroad. Not

to mention the deaths it causes every year and the cost in health.

So many people would want to see cannabis legalised, and therefore it

is prohibition. The reason why the government is soo pro alcohol is

cos they can make lots and lots of money out of it. Also because

alcohol is not a mind expanding drug and does not make you think.

They want to keep everyone under control.

I understand that a few people don't like cannabis cos it gives them

headaches, or they dont like the feeing etc. and I respect that, but

what I don't like is the people who don't try it and don't want to

learn about it and say it is evil. You can look at the bad side of

any drug and use it as an excuse to ban it. Take coffee. That's

really bad for you so why don't the government ban it. Save on NHS

costs. That's recreational drug use.

Hemp is the most multi purpose plant and can be used for almost

everything. We used to grow a lot of it in England until the drug was

seen as a lower class drug and banned.

I have hemp seed on my museli every morning. It is not illegal to

sell it in health food shops but they do not promote how good it is

for you.

Laura

vegan-network, " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632@c...> wrote:

>

> Yeah that makes sense to me, entonox being no help to you as it's

> something you weren't used to, because with my first labour I was

> rambling and saying weird things apparently on it, although it was

> helping me with the pain really well.

> My husband said I said something like " Is time moving forwards or

> backwards " , because I was having yet another examination from the

doc

> or midwife to see how dilated I was, so I was quite confused. I

swear

> I don't remember saying these strange things, and I wonder what

else

> came out of my mouth! I did remember to remind them of important

> things like, " no catgut, I'm vegan " , when we got to the hospital,

> because I needed the ventouse and an episiotomy and stitches to

> deliver the baby both times (two failed attempts at home-birth

> because of my pelvis not being the perfect shape so the natural

birth

> just couldn't happen).

> But with my second baby, I was more in control because I was aware

of

> the risk of becoming confused and better able to fight the side-

> effects just using my own mind, I was clearer-headed despite lots

of

> entonox the second time.

>

> I personally am quite against most recreational drug use (had a big

> argument on here about this before), but I'm definitely not at all

> opposed to cannabis as a therapeutic drug. I've heard it can help

> with painful conditions such as multiple sclerosis, and I don't

think

> those people should be denied it if it helps them. I even heard

Queen

> Victoria used it for period pain, so I'd like to see laws that

allow

> for this, while not allowing it for people to get stoned out of

their

> minds. Not sure how this would be achieved though. I think it's

good

> if eating it helped you through labour, although I'll stick with

the

> entonox myself again with number three, because I think I can

control

> the confusing effects OK.

> I eat too much already, I have gained two stone in the last three

> months, because of yo-yoing back to some of my junk food habits

once

> I became pregnant, after just recently losing three stone in four

> months on Weight Watchers. I'm only three months pregnant, so I

> shouldn't have really gained weight, but I am now 10 1/2 stone and

5

> foot 1/2 an inch tall, so I am too fat and definitely don't need

> anything that will give me the munchies!

>

> I used to work in Baldwin's the herbalists in South London for

about

> three years (late 1989 to January 1993) before I had my kids,

> although I don't have any qualifications. I remember those herbs

you

> mention, we always had to tell anyone pregnant to consult a

herbalist

> because we were only a shop and couldn't give actual qualified

advice

> on what was safe, but we sold lots of books and used to look things

> up sometimes.

> My problem with herbal medicine for labour is not being able to

keep

> anything on my stomach in labour so even herbal teas would probably

> not stay down.

> I might get in some red raspberry leaf tea sometime soon for the

> pregnancy, I know that's good for the pregnant uterus.

>

> My lungs are OK if I keep well away from smoke of any kind,

> especially cigarettes, but as a kid I was not able to do what my

body

> told me to do in this situation.

>

> I'd be happy if there are some safe herbs in pregnancy which would

> help me not to gain too much more weight, even though I have the

> excuse of being pregnant it's not good to gain too much, which I

tend

> to do in pregnancy especially.

>

> Yes, by all means do please put me in touch with that herbalist.

You

> never know when this might be useful, thanks.

>

> Lesley

>

> > Long message ahead! Sorry.

> > Lesley,

> > I did try entonox - and it made the pain worse because it was

> something I

> > wasn't used to - extra on top of what I already had to deal

with..

> I ate the

> > cannabis rather than smoking it when in labour - because it

relaxed

> all my

> > muscles and psychologically it helped me to focus on how much

love

> I had for

> > my baby and how much that made me want to give birth - &

therefore

> it made

> > the labour easier, and helped me bond with Jade. Through the

> pregnancy it

> > was the only thing that helped with siatica (hip pain) and it

gave

> me the

> > munchies so I ate more healthy food - even when pregnancy made me

> feel sick.

> > I also use it to help me relax & focus & meditate, so it helped

me

> & Dave

> > deal with a lot of parenting issues we probably wouln't have

dealt

> with

> > otherwise. It also encourages me to be creative - I did so much

tie

> dye when

> > pregnant! And Jade is a really happy & healthy baby - as you know

> from

> > meeting her. I know its not good for everyone - but a damn sight

> better for

> > those who it does work with than chemical drugs, be they

> pharmaceutical or

> > 'street' drugs.

> > I never smoke tobacco - so when smoking cannabis (now very rare -

> hardly

> > ever come by it these days, & get by fine without it-) it takes

> much less

> > smoke to have an effect than it would if rolled up with tobacco.

> > I know quite a bit now about herbal medicine. Some even say that

> cannabis is

> > not harmful when smoked on its own as it relaxes and opens the

> lungs.

> > Coltsfoot actually heals lungs if smoked - although better in

teas

> I reckon.

> > Believe it or not - heroin in small doses actually arrests severe

> asthma

> > attacks - and allows proper breathing. But shouldn't be used as a

> general

> > thing. Everything is on this planet for a reason - and works if

used

> > responsibly. Valerian is wonderful for teething babies and has

been

> used as

> > far back as history goes - but the valium they synthesise from is

> is harmful

> > & addictive. My problem with conventional medicine is that is is

so

> > overkill - it suppresses symptoms rather than looking at true

> prevention or

> > cure.

> > Seek advice about it - but if you have trouble with your lungs,

> Mullein,

> > Coltsfoot, Elderflower & Chamomile have really gentle healing

> properties for

> > the lungs, - anti-allergic, calming, soothing & dilate the veins

in

> the

> > lungs. They don't taste too bad in a tea either. Ephedra is also

> fantastic

> > for the lungs - especially if you have hay fever or asthma - but

it

> raises

> > blood pressure, so only suitable when not pregnant & only

available

> through

> > a practitioner.

> > I can recommend a wonderful qualified herbalist who I know who is

in

> > Watford. She also has other contacts. I'll call her and ask if I

> can pass

> > her number to you if you like.

> > Let me know.

> > Hannah.

> >

> > -

> > " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632@c...>

> > <vegan-network>

> > Friday, May 04, 2001 11:58 AM

> > Re: the problem with doctors

> >

> > >

> > > I just used lots of gas and air (entonox) for both births, but

we

> > > kept running out of it.

> > > I have nothing against herbal medicine, in fact I am very pro-

> herbal

> > > medicine in general, in fact I got a herbal pain relief mixture

in

> > > liquid form for one of my labours, from a qualified herbalist,

> but I

> > > just puked it all up (couldn't keep any food or drink down in

> labour,

> > > which is quite common and this herbal stuff tasted awful so no

way

> > > would it stay down) so unfortunately taking pain relief

medicine

> by

> > > mouth didn't work for me.

> > > I wouldn't think that smoking anything, for any reason, whether

> it's

> > > tobacco or cannabis, would be healthy for the chest, because it

> just

> > > leaves rubbish like soot in a chimney in your lungs and that

has

> to

> > > cause problems. I was seriously sickly as a kid because of my

> mum's

> > > chain-smoking and I can't imagine cannabis smoke is any more

good

> for

> > > kids than it is for them to be exposed to than tobacco smoke. I

> get

> > > sick around any sort of smoke, even incense sticks. I suppose I

> have

> > > more of an aversion to smoking generally than anything against

> > > cannabis in particular. I just think smoking is completely

> revolting

> > > and harmful (and disgusting!).

> > > I would be quite worried about pethidine too as it's an opiate,

> but I

> > > don't think illicit drugs are actually any healthier than most

> > > pharmaceutical company drugs either, especially things you

smoke.

> > > Entonox is very unlikely to harm the baby and it's quickly out

of

> the

> > > mother's system unlike opiates and epidurals.

> > > I think it's fairly safe. It makes some people laugh, it is also

> > > known as laughing gas, and I heard that the Victorians used to

> use it

> > > as a recreational drug and had laughing gas parties! But I was

OK

> > > with it for labour pains, made me a bit giddy, but it certainly

> made

> > > it bearable. Some people thought it was brave of me not to have

> > > pethidine but I have heard it isn't very effective anyway, as

> well as

> > > riskier than entonox for the baby's health, and epidurals can go

> > > wrong and cause a complication called a spinal tap, where the

> needle

> > > actually hits the spine and you get a terrible headache for days

> > > afterwards. That is really unpleasant apparently.

> > > I'm OK breathing in gas for pain, but not smoke.

> > > Did you refuse entonox because it's a governemtn drug, or did

you

> try

> > > it and have a bad reaction to it? I've heard it doesn't suit

> > > everyone, and isn't strong enough for everyone, hence the

offers

> of

> > > stronger drugs as labour progresses.

> > >

> > > Lesley

> > >

> > > > I find cannabis helps with many things. When I gave birth they

> > > offered me

> > > > pethidin (heroin) but wouldn't let me skin up.

> > > > Say no to government drugs!

> > >

May 6, 2001

I am gay and it is very difficult to find like-minded mates! Even with all

of the gorgeous student lads I keep pulling (only kiddin'!) they rarely turn

out to be vegan! hehe

Mark

x

May 6, 2001

> It seems such a shame all these marriages are breaking up cos

people

> think killing animals is so important. That 3:1 vegan statistic

makes

> me quite scared, im really going to have to hang onto my boyfriend!

>

There may be about 3 vegan women to every one vegan man, but the fact

is that most of those vegan women don't actively seek out the most

like-minded men, it's not that important to most of them from what I

have seen. For me it was very important, more so than materialistic

concerns, but I'm pretty sure that I was in the minority of vegan

women for prioritising ethics in this way, otherwise the vegan groups

would have been full of single vegan women.

When I was in social and campaigning groups for vegans and

vegetarians, there were at the time many more single men than single

women joining these groups, for instance London Vegans, which had a

surfeit of single men and a lack of single women as I remember it in

the days before I was married with kids.

Speaking for the situation as I see it for the heterosexuals, I would

think it's the case that a higher proportion of the vegan men than

the vegan women seek out specifically vegan mates. I can't speak for

how it is for gay and lesbian vegans, how easy it is for them to find

like-minded mates.

>

> Mainly to Lesley:

>

> You say you are against most recreational drug use and people

> getting `stoned out of their minds', but does this mean you approve

> of alcohol and people getting of their face. I chose to do an essay

> on the effects of drugs on the brain for part of my uni course and

> the reason for cannabis being such a safe drug and not killing

> anybody is to do with lack of receptors in the brain stem which

bind

> the chemicals. Most other drugs do bind to the brainstem at the

base

> of the brain and therefore cause long-term damage.

> Alcohol has a bad effect on me and I don't like it anyway. I only

> drink water in pubs and people think im a freak cos I don't drink.

I

> think this is a terrible state to be in with most of the population

> being fairly dependant on alcohol. It makes people into yobs,

> especially football fans. Look at the problems we cause abroad. Not

> to mention the deaths it causes every year and the cost in health.

> So many people would want to see cannabis legalised, and therefore

it

> is prohibition. The reason why the government is soo pro alcohol is

> cos they can make lots and lots of money out of it. Also because

> alcohol is not a mind expanding drug and does not make you think.

> They want to keep everyone under control.

>

This is perhaps a bit wishy-washy of me but here goes:

I wouldn't have any problem with prohibition of alcohol, you make a

good argument for it and I would argue for it if it didn't make me a

hypocrite, but I would truly have to be teetotal first to feel that I

had the right to be calling for prohibition. I agree with everything

you say about the way alcohol brings out violence in many people. I

am not entirely teetotal, but I dislike drunken behaviour and very

rarely drink alcohol, I have a low tolerance to it and wouldn't have

more than one or two drinks at the most, and that's only about two or

three times a year anyway, so if prohibition came in, I would accept

it and support it for the greater good, to protect people who can't

control their drinking and those who suffer at the hands of drunken

drivers and violent alcoholics. We all have to accept some controls

on our behaviour for the protection of others good and to me that is

entirely correct.

Pubs could still exist and do business selling inventive non-

alcoholic cocktails, I'd personally prefer that.

You are not a freak for not liking alcohol, I support 100% your

choice not to drink. My advice would be to just not hang out with

people who put you down for your choice if their comments bother you.

You don't need people who make fun of you, and you deserve better

than that.

>

> I understand that a few people don't like cannabis cos it gives

them

> headaches, or they dont like the feeing etc. and I respect that,

but

Anything smoky around me makes me cough and get catarrh, sometimes

headaches too.

> what I don't like is the people who don't try it and don't want to

> learn about it and say it is evil. You can look at the bad side of

> any drug and use it as an excuse to ban it. Take coffee. That's

> really bad for you so why don't the government ban it. Save on NHS

> costs. That's recreational drug use.

>

I don't like any kind of smoke, it makes me ill and I have to avoid

it, just as you avoid alcohol.

I'm pretty sure it can cause some brain and liver damage in habitual

users.

I don't think it's wrong for people who need it for pain to use

cannabis for multiple sclerosis for instance, I have heard some of

them find it helps, although I would say smoking it is not a good way

to take any medicine, and there needs to be an alternative, cleaner

way to use it therapuetically.

Actually I have great sympathy with any person who is treated as a

freak for not drinking, because I used to belong to an animal rights

group, and recently was speaking with a man who used to be in the

same group. I commented to him that the people in the group were a

funny lot and not very friendly to me as I remember, because he had

told me how he had felt very unsupported by his AR friends during a

recent very difficult period of his life, so I could relate to what

he was saying, having possibly known some of these people a few years

ago. His response was that some of them thought I was strange and

unsociable for not often going to the pub after meetings, etc. What

they didn't understand is that because most pubs tend to be full of

people smoking, and that was the only reason I hardly ever went to

the pub, because I knew that after going into smoky room I was always

ill with a cough and sore throat for several days afterwards. So you

aren't the only one treated as a freak, it's happened to me too, and

one would think that vegans in the AR movement would know better than

to treat one of their own as a freak for not liking the pub but I can

assure you I was treated as a bit freakish, and considered the

unsociable one. A lot of them smoked themselves and wouldn't have

understood how badly it affected my health to be around it.

The difference between moderate drinking and smoking either tobacco

or cannabis for me is that moderate occasional drinking doesn't

infringe on another person's rights, because other people around me

aren't forced to drink too, whereas any sort of smoking does infringe

on other people's right to breathe in almost every case. I want to

breathe air, most people feel the same way, so smokers should just

wear a goldfish bowl over their heads and keep their filth in that

for just themselves to breathe!

>

> Hemp is the most multi purpose plant and can be used for almost

> everything. We used to grow a lot of it in England until the drug

was

> seen as a lower class drug and banned.

> I have hemp seed on my museli every morning. It is not illegal to

> sell it in health food shops but they do not promote how good it is

> for you.

>

I have no doubt that the hemp that is used for making clothes is very

environmentally sound and useful, and I would quite happily eat hemp

seeds from a health food shop, but of course that is not the same as

the cannabis that people smoke because it has a low level of the

substances that alter the state of mind.

Using the arguments for this type of hemp as an argument for the

right to recreationally smoke cannabis, is like telling me all the

good things about apples and then urging me that these are good

arguments for eating pears!

Lesley

>

> Laura

>

May 7, 2001

Aha! well that 3:1 vegan statistic is very heartening, where do these

vegan women hide?

vegan-network, " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632@c...> wrote:

>

> > It seems such a shame all these marriages are breaking up cos

> people

> > think killing animals is so important. That 3:1 vegan statistic

> makes

> > me quite scared, im really going to have to hang onto my

boyfriend!

> >

> There may be about 3 vegan women to every one vegan man, but the

fact

> is that most of those vegan women don't actively seek out the most

> like-minded men, it's not that important to most of them from what

I

> have seen. For me it was very important, more so than materialistic

> concerns, but I'm pretty sure that I was in the minority of vegan

> women for prioritising ethics in this way, otherwise the vegan

groups

> would have been full of single vegan women.

> When I was in social and campaigning groups for vegans and

> vegetarians, there were at the time many more single men than

single

> women joining these groups, for instance London Vegans, which had a

> surfeit of single men and a lack of single women as I remember it

in

> the days before I was married with kids.

> Speaking for the situation as I see it for the heterosexuals, I

would

> think it's the case that a higher proportion of the vegan men than

> the vegan women seek out specifically vegan mates. I can't speak

for

> how it is for gay and lesbian vegans, how easy it is for them to

find

> like-minded mates.

> >

> > Mainly to Lesley:

> >

> > You say you are against most recreational drug use and people

> > getting `stoned out of their minds', but does this mean you

approve

> > of alcohol and people getting of their face. I chose to do an

essay

> > on the effects of drugs on the brain for part of my uni course

and

> > the reason for cannabis being such a safe drug and not killing

> > anybody is to do with lack of receptors in the brain stem which

> bind

> > the chemicals. Most other drugs do bind to the brainstem at the

> base

> > of the brain and therefore cause long-term damage.

> > Alcohol has a bad effect on me and I don't like it anyway. I only

> > drink water in pubs and people think im a freak cos I don't

drink.

> I

> > think this is a terrible state to be in with most of the

population

> > being fairly dependant on alcohol. It makes people into yobs,

> > especially football fans. Look at the problems we cause abroad.

Not

> > to mention the deaths it causes every year and the cost in health.

> > So many people would want to see cannabis legalised, and

therefore

> it

> > is prohibition. The reason why the government is soo pro alcohol

is

> > cos they can make lots and lots of money out of it. Also because

> > alcohol is not a mind expanding drug and does not make you think.

> > They want to keep everyone under control.

> >

> This is perhaps a bit wishy-washy of me but here goes:

> I wouldn't have any problem with prohibition of alcohol, you make a

> good argument for it and I would argue for it if it didn't make me

a

> hypocrite, but I would truly have to be teetotal first to feel that

I

> had the right to be calling for prohibition. I agree with

everything

> you say about the way alcohol brings out violence in many people. I

> am not entirely teetotal, but I dislike drunken behaviour and very

> rarely drink alcohol, I have a low tolerance to it and wouldn't

have

> more than one or two drinks at the most, and that's only about two

or

> three times a year anyway, so if prohibition came in, I would

accept

> it and support it for the greater good, to protect people who can't

> control their drinking and those who suffer at the hands of drunken

> drivers and violent alcoholics. We all have to accept some controls

> on our behaviour for the protection of others good and to me that

is

> entirely correct.

> Pubs could still exist and do business selling inventive non-

> alcoholic cocktails, I'd personally prefer that.

> You are not a freak for not liking alcohol, I support 100% your

> choice not to drink. My advice would be to just not hang out with

> people who put you down for your choice if their comments bother

you.

> You don't need people who make fun of you, and you deserve better

> than that.

> >

> > I understand that a few people don't like cannabis cos it gives

> them

> > headaches, or they dont like the feeing etc. and I respect that,

> but

>

> Anything smoky around me makes me cough and get catarrh, sometimes

> headaches too.

>

> > what I don't like is the people who don't try it and don't want

to

> > learn about it and say it is evil. You can look at the bad side

of

> > any drug and use it as an excuse to ban it. Take coffee. That's

> > really bad for you so why don't the government ban it. Save on

NHS

> > costs. That's recreational drug use.

> >

> I don't like any kind of smoke, it makes me ill and I have to avoid

> it, just as you avoid alcohol.

> I'm pretty sure it can cause some brain and liver damage in

habitual

> users.

> I don't think it's wrong for people who need it for pain to use

> cannabis for multiple sclerosis for instance, I have heard some of

> them find it helps, although I would say smoking it is not a good

way

> to take any medicine, and there needs to be an alternative, cleaner

> way to use it therapuetically.

>

> Actually I have great sympathy with any person who is treated as a

> freak for not drinking, because I used to belong to an animal

rights

> group, and recently was speaking with a man who used to be in the

> same group. I commented to him that the people in the group were a

> funny lot and not very friendly to me as I remember, because he had

> told me how he had felt very unsupported by his AR friends during a

> recent very difficult period of his life, so I could relate to what

> he was saying, having possibly known some of these people a few

years

> ago. His response was that some of them thought I was strange and

> unsociable for not often going to the pub after meetings, etc. What

> they didn't understand is that because most pubs tend to be full of

> people smoking, and that was the only reason I hardly ever went to

> the pub, because I knew that after going into smoky room I was

always

> ill with a cough and sore throat for several days afterwards. So

you

> aren't the only one treated as a freak, it's happened to me too,

and

> one would think that vegans in the AR movement would know better

than

> to treat one of their own as a freak for not liking the pub but I

can

> assure you I was treated as a bit freakish, and considered the

> unsociable one. A lot of them smoked themselves and wouldn't have

> understood how badly it affected my health to be around it.

> The difference between moderate drinking and smoking either tobacco

> or cannabis for me is that moderate occasional drinking doesn't

> infringe on another person's rights, because other people around me

> aren't forced to drink too, whereas any sort of smoking does

infringe

> on other people's right to breathe in almost every case. I want to

> breathe air, most people feel the same way, so smokers should just

> wear a goldfish bowl over their heads and keep their filth in that

> for just themselves to breathe!

> >

> > Hemp is the most multi purpose plant and can be used for almost

> > everything. We used to grow a lot of it in England until the drug

> was

> > seen as a lower class drug and banned.

> > I have hemp seed on my museli every morning. It is not illegal to

> > sell it in health food shops but they do not promote how good it

is

> > for you.

> >

> I have no doubt that the hemp that is used for making clothes is

very

> environmentally sound and useful, and I would quite happily eat

hemp

> seeds from a health food shop, but of course that is not the same

as

> the cannabis that people smoke because it has a low level of the

> substances that alter the state of mind.

> Using the arguments for this type of hemp as an argument for the

> right to recreationally smoke cannabis, is like telling me all the

> good things about apples and then urging me that these are good

> arguments for eating pears!

>

> Lesley

>

> >

> > Laura

> >

May 7, 2001

Hello Laura,

Sunday, May 06, 2001, 1:17:31 PM, you wrote:

I like your point of view and agree with you. As far as I know, in

Holland there are less drug users than in USA. (I mean percentage)

Also, we made a poll in Russian vegetarain news group and it resulted

that vegetarians drink less alcohol than non vegs. And many vegs

doesn't like alcohol.

L> It seems such a shame all these marriages are breaking up cos people

L> think killing animals is so important. That 3:1 vegan statistic makes

L> me quite scared, im really going to have to hang onto my boyfriend!

L> Mainly to Lesley:

L> You say you are against most recreational drug use and people

L> getting `stoned out of their minds', but does this mean you approve

L> of alcohol and people getting of their face. I chose to do an essay

L> on the effects of drugs on the brain for part of my uni course and

L> the reason for cannabis being such a safe drug and not killing

L> anybody is to do with lack of receptors in the brain stem which bind

L> the chemicals. Most other drugs do bind to the brainstem at the base

L> of the brain and therefore cause long-term damage.

L> Alcohol has a bad effect on me and I don't like it anyway. I only

L> drink water in pubs and people think im a freak cos I don't drink. I

L> think this is a terrible state to be in with most of the population

L> being fairly dependant on alcohol. It makes people into yobs,

L> especially football fans. Look at the problems we cause abroad. Not

L> to mention the deaths it causes every year and the cost in health.

L> So many people would want to see cannabis legalised, and therefore it

L> is prohibition. The reason why the government is soo pro alcohol is

L> cos they can make lots and lots of money out of it. Also because

L> alcohol is not a mind expanding drug and does not make you think.

L> They want to keep everyone under control.

L> I understand that a few people don't like cannabis cos it gives them

L> headaches, or they dont like the feeing etc. and I respect that, but

L> what I don't like is the people who don't try it and don't want to

L> learn about it and say it is evil. You can look at the bad side of

L> any drug and use it as an excuse to ban it. Take coffee. That's

L> really bad for you so why don't the government ban it. Save on NHS

L> costs. That's recreational drug use.

L> Hemp is the most multi purpose plant and can be used for almost

L> everything. We used to grow a lot of it in England until the drug was

L> seen as a lower class drug and banned.

L> I have hemp seed on my museli every morning. It is not illegal to

L> sell it in health food shops but they do not promote how good it is

L> for you.

L> Laura

L> vegan-network, " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632@c...> wrote:

>>

>> Yeah that makes sense to me, entonox being no help to you as it's

>> something you weren't used to, because with my first labour I was

>> rambling and saying weird things apparently on it, although it was

>> helping me with the pain really well.

>> My husband said I said something like " Is time moving forwards or

>> backwards " , because I was having yet another examination from the

L> doc

>> or midwife to see how dilated I was, so I was quite confused. I

L> swear

>> I don't remember saying these strange things, and I wonder what

L> else

>> came out of my mouth! I did remember to remind them of important

>> things like, " no catgut, I'm vegan " , when we got to the hospital,

>> because I needed the ventouse and an episiotomy and stitches to

>> deliver the baby both times (two failed attempts at home-birth

>> because of my pelvis not being the perfect shape so the natural

L> birth

>> just couldn't happen).

>> But with my second baby, I was more in control because I was aware

L> of

>> the risk of becoming confused and better able to fight the side-

>> effects just using my own mind, I was clearer-headed despite lots

L> of

>> entonox the second time.

>>

>> I personally am quite against most recreational drug use (had a big

>> argument on here about this before), but I'm definitely not at all

>> opposed to cannabis as a therapeutic drug. I've heard it can help

>> with painful conditions such as multiple sclerosis, and I don't

L> think

>> those people should be denied it if it helps them. I even heard

L> Queen

>> Victoria used it for period pain, so I'd like to see laws that

L> allow

>> for this, while not allowing it for people to get stoned out of

L> their

>> minds. Not sure how this would be achieved though. I think it's

L> good

>> if eating it helped you through labour, although I'll stick with

L> the

>> entonox myself again with number three, because I think I can

L> control

>> the confusing effects OK.

>> I eat too much already, I have gained two stone in the last three

>> months, because of yo-yoing back to some of my junk food habits

L> once

>> I became pregnant, after just recently losing three stone in four

>> months on Weight Watchers. I'm only three months pregnant, so I

>> shouldn't have really gained weight, but I am now 10 1/2 stone and

L> 5

>> foot 1/2 an inch tall, so I am too fat and definitely don't need

>> anything that will give me the munchies!

>>

>> I used to work in Baldwin's the herbalists in South London for

L> about

>> three years (late 1989 to January 1993) before I had my kids,

>> although I don't have any qualifications. I remember those herbs

L> you

>> mention, we always had to tell anyone pregnant to consult a

L> herbalist

>> because we were only a shop and couldn't give actual qualified

L> advice

>> on what was safe, but we sold lots of books and used to look things

>> up sometimes.

>> My problem with herbal medicine for labour is not being able to

L> keep

>> anything on my stomach in labour so even herbal teas would probably

>> not stay down.

>> I might get in some red raspberry leaf tea sometime soon for the

>> pregnancy, I know that's good for the pregnant uterus.

>>

>> My lungs are OK if I keep well away from smoke of any kind,

>> especially cigarettes, but as a kid I was not able to do what my

L> body

>> told me to do in this situation.

>>

>> I'd be happy if there are some safe herbs in pregnancy which would

>> help me not to gain too much more weight, even though I have the

>> excuse of being pregnant it's not good to gain too much, which I

L> tend

>> to do in pregnancy especially.

>>

>> Yes, by all means do please put me in touch with that herbalist.

L> You

>> never know when this might be useful, thanks.

>>

>> Lesley

>>

>> > Long message ahead! Sorry.

>> > Lesley,

>> > I did try entonox - and it made the pain worse because it was

>> something I

>> > wasn't used to - extra on top of what I already had to deal

L> with..

>> I ate the

>> > cannabis rather than smoking it when in labour - because it

L> relaxed

>> all my

>> > muscles and psychologically it helped me to focus on how much

L> love

>> I had for

>> > my baby and how much that made me want to give birth - &

L> therefore

>> it made

>> > the labour easier, and helped me bond with Jade. Through the

>> pregnancy it

>> > was the only thing that helped with siatica (hip pain) and it

L> gave

>> me the

>> > munchies so I ate more healthy food - even when pregnancy made me

>> feel sick.

>> > I also use it to help me relax & focus & meditate, so it helped

L> me

>> & Dave

>> > deal with a lot of parenting issues we probably wouln't have

L> dealt

>> with

>> > otherwise. It also encourages me to be creative - I did so much

L> tie

>> dye when

>> > pregnant! And Jade is a really happy & healthy baby - as you know

>> from

>> > meeting her. I know its not good for everyone - but a damn sight

>> better for

>> > those who it does work with than chemical drugs, be they

>> pharmaceutical or

>> > 'street' drugs.

>> > I never smoke tobacco - so when smoking cannabis (now very rare -

>> hardly

>> > ever come by it these days, & get by fine without it-) it takes

>> much less

>> > smoke to have an effect than it would if rolled up with tobacco.

>> > I know quite a bit now about herbal medicine. Some even say that

>> cannabis is

>> > not harmful when smoked on its own as it relaxes and opens the

>> lungs.

>> > Coltsfoot actually heals lungs if smoked - although better in

L> teas

>> I reckon.

>> > Believe it or not - heroin in small doses actually arrests severe

>> asthma

>> > attacks - and allows proper breathing. But shouldn't be used as a

>> general

>> > thing. Everything is on this planet for a reason - and works if

L> used

>> > responsibly. Valerian is wonderful for teething babies and has

L> been

>> used as

>> > far back as history goes - but the valium they synthesise from is

>> is harmful

>> > & addictive. My problem with conventional medicine is that is is

L> so

>> > overkill - it suppresses symptoms rather than looking at true

>> prevention or

>> > cure.

>> > Seek advice about it - but if you have trouble with your lungs,

>> Mullein,

>> > Coltsfoot, Elderflower & Chamomile have really gentle healing

>> properties for

>> > the lungs, - anti-allergic, calming, soothing & dilate the veins

L> in

>> the

>> > lungs. They don't taste too bad in a tea either. Ephedra is also

>> fantastic

>> > for the lungs - especially if you have hay fever or asthma - but

L> it

>> raises

>> > blood pressure, so only suitable when not pregnant & only

L> available

>> through

>> > a practitioner.

>> > I can recommend a wonderful qualified herbalist who I know who is

L> in

>> > Watford. She also has other contacts. I'll call her and ask if I

>> can pass

>> > her number to you if you like.

>> > Let me know.

>> > Hannah.

>> >

>> > -

>> > " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632@c...>

>> > <vegan-network>

>> > Friday, May 04, 2001 11:58 AM

>> > Re: the problem with doctors

>> >

>> > >

>> > > I just used lots of gas and air (entonox) for both births, but

L> we

>> > > kept running out of it.

>> > > I have nothing against herbal medicine, in fact I am very pro-

>> herbal

>> > > medicine in general, in fact I got a herbal pain relief mixture

L> in

>> > > liquid form for one of my labours, from a qualified herbalist,

>> but I

>> > > just puked it all up (couldn't keep any food or drink down in

>> labour,

>> > > which is quite common and this herbal stuff tasted awful so no

L> way

>> > > would it stay down) so unfortunately taking pain relief

L> medicine

>> by

>> > > mouth didn't work for me.

>> > > I wouldn't think that smoking anything, for any reason, whether

>> it's

>> > > tobacco or cannabis, would be healthy for the chest, because it

>> just

>> > > leaves rubbish like soot in a chimney in your lungs and that

L> has

>> to

>> > > cause problems. I was seriously sickly as a kid because of my

>> mum's

>> > > chain-smoking and I can't imagine cannabis smoke is any more

L> good

>> for

>> > > kids than it is for them to be exposed to than tobacco smoke. I

>> get

>> > > sick around any sort of smoke, even incense sticks. I suppose I

>> have

>> > > more of an aversion to smoking generally than anything against

>> > > cannabis in particular. I just think smoking is completely

>> revolting

>> > > and harmful (and disgusting!).

>> > > I would be quite worried about pethidine too as it's an opiate,

>> but I

>> > > don't think illicit drugs are actually any healthier than most

>> > > pharmaceutical company drugs either, especially things you

L> smoke.

>> > > Entonox is very unlikely to harm the baby and it's quickly out

L> of

>> the

>> > > mother's system unlike opiates and epidurals.

>> > > I think it's fairly safe. It makes some people laugh, it is also

>> > > known as laughing gas, and I heard that the Victorians used to

>> use it

>> > > as a recreational drug and had laughing gas parties! But I was

L> OK

>> > > with it for labour pains, made me a bit giddy, but it certainly

>> made

>> > > it bearable. Some people thought it was brave of me not to have

>> > > pethidine but I have heard it isn't very effective anyway, as

>> well as

>> > > riskier than entonox for the baby's health, and epidurals can go

>> > > wrong and cause a complication called a spinal tap, where the

>> needle

>> > > actually hits the spine and you get a terrible headache for days

>> > > afterwards. That is really unpleasant apparently.

>> > > I'm OK breathing in gas for pain, but not smoke.

>> > > Did you refuse entonox because it's a governemtn drug, or did

L> you

>> try

>> > > it and have a bad reaction to it? I've heard it doesn't suit

>> > > everyone, and isn't strong enough for everyone, hence the

L> offers

>> of

>> > > stronger drugs as labour progresses.

>> > >

>> > > Lesley

>> > >

>> > > > I find cannabis helps with many things. When I gave birth they

>> > > offered me

>> > > > pethidin (heroin) but wouldn't let me skin up.

>> > > > Say no to government drugs!

>> > >

May 7, 2001

I am concerned generally about the idea of 'banning' things.

I would far prefer that people were educated and the money would be better spent

that way.

Once a person becomes a criminal for taking an illegal drug their qualms about

breaking other laws lower.

Eg , If you enjoy heroine and lose your job, hence, you cannot afford it you

will more likely break the law to afford it as you are already considered the

'wrong' side of the law.

The reason such drugs are made illegal is such a recent impression upon society.

Drugs have been illegal for less than 100 years but nobody alive now can state

the case with experience.

I dislike the cotton-wool-wrapping that goes on because of the natural

conservatism in the British.

Despite the need to prevent heroine addicts from bringing up kids in

needle-strewn rooms filled with nothing but a foam mattress and the stench of

tobacco, there is also an opposition who wishes for people to have choice.

I doubt people would die of drugs so often if they were sold from supermarket

shelves.

(I recognise these would be tested on animals but I am arguing on a freedom

rather than practical stranglehold basis.)

The regulation needed is against driving whilst influenced by any substance.

My age group has been spoon fed anti drink driving since the late 80s and thru

the 90s, and all of my driving friends are adamant about not drink driving.

Paradoxically they will almost happily pop a pill or smoke a joint and go

cruising to get some 'baccy when they run out.

They have no qualms about being fucked-out-of-their-minds as long as it does not

involve drinking.

It is akin to the anti-speeding adverts. They promote the avid reading of your

speedometer but almost ignore the 'looking at the road and other people/cars

around' part of responsible driving.

The drink driving adverts have caused the same type of pointless notification.

Drive if you want - badly even, just don't have a beer and drive badly.

Rant over.

Loud Andy

Andrew Barnes

07970 075905

--------------------

talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at

http://www.talk21.com

May 8, 2001

Laura, you're spot on. I read a statistic that said one in ten deaths are

caused by alcohol. I'm 100% for the DE-criminalisation of dope, smack and

cocaine. Take the money away from dealing and all/most problems disappear.

The thing that annoys me most is it's the tax payer who's stumped for health

costs. This is why I always voice my opinions on Veganism and health

issues. In a society that considers Veganism extreme and quadruple-heart

bypass the norm, you have to speak out.

Laura [laurahesse]

06 May 2001 11:18

vegan-network

Re: the problem with doctors and drug laws