Guest guest Posted June 18, 2001 Report Share Posted June 18, 2001 Thanx lovely ppl who responded to my goth email. Talk about community spirit XD ~*H*~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 And accusing someone of spreading misinformation, simply because their points dont correlate with your, is bad form, my good chap. In the universities that actually still teach logic (i hear that was outlawed in the US, caused to much critical analysis, and yes that was just a sarcastic joke) I believe they call it a 'straw man' attack, which is neither valid, nor logical or acceptable as a term of fair exchange in dialogue. Ive never seen you accuse anyone of spreading misinformation that agreed with you and didnt site a source; I gave sources and was still accused... logically speaking, I can only come to the conclusion that the basis is my disagreeal with your points, although all the while I have admitted I 'learned' from them but will not 'bow down' to them. Once again, your info comes from primarily one source, mine comes from several, and yes I do use 'some' pro veggie sites, and I dont feel bad about that at all, neither do I feel that it is misinformation. The connotation of 'misinformation' is an elitist concept; assuming you can see through the propaganda and you must save the poor, ignorant, lesser masses from the lies that you have successfully spotted. Conversely, Im quite sure I can find a site on the net to prove or disprove almost anythig; which is why Ive said more than once, take everything with a grain of salt.. its only fair. But Id rather err on the side of caution when there is so much controversy over terms if I feel that strongly about what goes into my body. Ive foudn far more information in my search supporting that caution than blind trust in one source. Please read the letter from Kraft, its rather enlightening. Again, I'm not irked in the slightest, but bemusedly humoured by it. *pulls out rubber chicken and spoon* see, i even let you have the fork. -k- ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] >>And accusing someone of spreading misinformation, simply because their points dont correlate with your, is bad form, my good chap.<< I refer to the following excerpt from one of your prior email. >>[sally clinton wrote] A crucial ingredient in the production of most commercial cheeses is an enzyme that comes from the lining of the stomach of calves, called rennet....<< On it's face this statement is " misinformation. " The product removed from the lining of the stomach of calves is called " rennin. " What's so hard about this? " Rennet " is NOT " rennin. " Since I don't know Sally Clinton, I can't evaluate her enough to decide if she knows what she's talking about. Your links to her article might have aided me to do that. >>...I believe they call it a 'straw man' attack, which is neither valid, nor logical or acceptable as a term of fair exchange in dialogue.<< It's not about you, and it's not about me. It's only about defining " rennin " and " rennet. " You came to the group asserting that cheese was " nasty and disgusting " because it contained " the lining of the stomach of calves " as an enzyme in cheese production. I provided info that since 1990, the process had changed and " rennet " was now the coagulate of choice because of it's abundant supply from the lab. I assert there is no " straw man, " only disagreement about these two terms being either the same or different. I acknowledge that all the veggie sites seem to agree with your point of view. You actually did us all a favor by bringing this word error to our attention. >>Ive never seen you accuse anyone of spreading misinformation that agreed with you and didnt site a source;...<< It's not about providing a source. It's about presenting info that these two words are NOT the same, and your continuing to ignore the distinction. >>...neither do I feel that it is misinformation.<< If the definitions are different, and you choose to ignore them, what would you call it? >>...The connotation of 'misinformation' is an elitist concept; assuming you can see through the propaganda and you must save the poor, ignorant, lesser masses from the lies that you have successfully spotted.<< This is not part of the dialogue I'm involved in. >>...Im quite sure I can find a site on the net to prove or disprove almost anythig; which is why Ive said more than once, take everything with a grain of salt.. its only fair.<< I do not discount info until I have access to the sources and have the opportunity to properly evaluate it. Taking someone's input with " a grain of salt " has never worked in my life. I'm not going to start using it just because you can't reconcile two definitions. >>...Id rather err on the side of caution when there is so much controversy over terms<< Fine, I'd rather err on the side of accuracy. >>....the letter from Kraft, its rather enlightening.<< However enlightening it is, it is still based on an error of definition. No matter what's said, it all stops there is the words are inaccurate. DaveO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Hmmm.. i dont think I can continue this conversation; Ive gone to multiple sources that say the exact opposite of what you are saying, and cited sources, and you rely on one tenet, that rennet and rennin are two different things, and that rennin is the meat product, but everywhere ive looked outside of your one source, says that isnt true, rennin and rennet ARE 2 different things, but anything actually labelled rennet is a derivitive of the calf's mucous membrane, and anything labelled 'vegetarian rennet' simply isnt actual rennet. It's that simple. Yes, there are vegetarian options, no Ive never seen anything outside your one source that backs what you say, and the multiple sources Ive shown and given links to go against it. I think carrying the conversation on any further would just prove to be absurd. If you want the links you claim I didnt provide, go back through the messages; I did provide them and they are still there in the archives. Once again; you steadfastly adhere to one dogmatic point, from one source only, and refuse to even acknowledge that; which means you are far more likely to be spreadin 'misinformation' than I. K --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > >>And accusing someone of spreading misinformation, > simply because their > points dont correlate with your, is bad form, my > good chap.<< > > I refer to the following excerpt from one of your > prior email. > > >>[sally clinton wrote] A crucial ingredient in the > production of most > commercial cheeses is an enzyme that comes from the > lining of the stomach of > calves, called rennet....<< > > On it's face this statement is " misinformation. " > The product removed from > the lining of the stomach of calves is called > " rennin. " What's so hard > about this? " Rennet " is NOT " rennin. " > > Since I don't know Sally Clinton, I can't evaluate > her enough to decide if > she knows what she's talking about. Your links to > her article might have > aided me to do that. > > > >>...I believe they call it a 'straw man' attack, > which is neither valid, > nor logical or acceptable as a term of fair exchange > in dialogue.<< > > It's not about you, and it's not about me. > > It's only about defining " rennin " and " rennet. " > > You came to the group asserting that cheese was > " nasty and disgusting " > because it contained " the lining of the stomach of > calves " as an enzyme in > cheese production. > > I provided info that since 1990, the process had > changed and " rennet " was > now the coagulate of choice because of it's abundant > supply from the lab. > > I assert there is no " straw man, " only disagreement > about these two terms > being either the same or different. I acknowledge > that all the veggie sites > seem to agree with your point of view. > > You actually did us all a favor by bringing this > word error to our > attention. > > > >>Ive never seen you accuse anyone of spreading > misinformation that agreed with you and didnt site a > source;...<< > > It's not about providing a source. It's about > presenting info that these > two words are NOT the same, and your continuing to > ignore the distinction. > > > >>...neither do I feel that it is misinformation.<< > > If the definitions are different, and you choose to > ignore them, what would > you call it? > > > >>...The > connotation of 'misinformation' is an elitist > concept; > assuming you can see through the propaganda and you > must save the poor, ignorant, lesser masses from the > lies that you have successfully spotted.<< > > This is not part of the dialogue I'm involved in. > > > >>...Im quite sure I can find a site on the net > to prove or disprove almost anythig; which is why > Ive > said more than once, take everything with a grain of > salt.. its only fair.<< > > I do not discount info until I have access to the > sources and have the > opportunity to properly evaluate it. Taking > someone's input with " a grain > of salt " has never worked in my life. I'm not > going to start using it just > because you can't reconcile two definitions. > > > >>...Id rather err on the side of caution when there > is so much controversy > over terms<< > > Fine, I'd rather err on the side of accuracy. > > > >>....the letter from Kraft, its rather > enlightening.<< > > However enlightening it is, it is still based on an > error of definition. No > matter what's said, it all stops there is the words > are inaccurate. > > DaveO > > > > > > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] >>...rennin and rennet ARE 2 different things,<< Exactly!! That's my point here... >>...but anything actually labelled rennet is a derivitive of the calf's mucous membrane,<< I gave you one source which disputed this thesis, saying that " rennet is genetically derived from rennin, " therefore, it " is not " rennin. Rennet is produced in labs not in a barnyard. Some veggies may have a problem with " genetically derived, " but that's quite another debate. Your continuing to repeat the same claims does not dispute mine. >>...and anything labelled 'vegetarian rennet' simply isnt actual rennet.<< Labeling was never my issue. It was yours. And, you have never referenced formal definitions of either of these terms. >>...It's that simple. Yes, there are vegetarian options, no Ive never seen anything outside your one source that backs what you say, and the multiple sources Ive shown and given links to go against it.<< Simple, huh? It's not a game of gathering the " most sources. " It's all about staying focused on challenging what's presented. You started with a true thesis. I present info saying that the " cheese making process " was altered in 1990 with the introduction of a genetically altered plant based enzyme which mimicked an enzyme of " rennin. " Your thesis is now NOT TRUE. Not once did you challenge this statement with facts saying that my thesis was not true. Instead, you relied ONLY on many misapplications of the word " rennet. " There was no discussion about the process being flawed or of some discovery which changed it yet again. Your argument continues only to " loosely " connect the word " rennet " to " rennin " even after I make a very clear distinction between the two. >>I think carrying the conversation on any further would just prove to be absurd.<< Isn't like wonderful that life gives us such choices? >>...you steadfastly adhere to one dogmatic point, from one source only, and refuse to even acknowledge that;<< I suppose you didn't mean " ...just prove to be absurd " when you wrote it above. If the TRUTH ever become dogmatic, I will in fact be guilty of asserting it. >>...you are far more likely to be spreadin 'misinformation' than I.<< I'll let the veggie readers of this group decide that point. DaveO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 After reading the following post, I can only come to the conclusion that at best you sklimmed the info I provided and it's not fair for us to continue burdening the group with the subject; we're flogging a dead horse.. you're stating I have or havent done certain things, while Im saying, proof is directly in the archives that you are wrong... which is just going to be a vicious cycle, and not condusive to anything more than frustration. Everything you claim I have or havent done, is in my posts, which are all in the archives. If you don't want to go through them again, you should have read them properly the first time, or not be willing to make those claims. At any rate, I'm imagiing there are quite a few people getting annoyed with the circularity of the situation. Anything you want me to disprove or provide facts for, I will do so in private; after I am confident that you actually have taken the time to do some more research. My posts, which are documented, will speak for themselves, and I don't want to continue a dialogue that becomes redundant in it's repetition. It was informative, though, let's move onto a new subject, or take it out of the group (my gut is telling me people are at about the point where they are ready to just erase any post with a header related to cheese, lol) -K- --- daveo <daveo wrote: > > Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] > > >>...rennin and rennet ARE 2 different things,<< > > Exactly!! That's my point here... > > > >>...but anything actually labelled rennet is > a derivitive of the calf's mucous membrane,<< > > I gave you one source which disputed this thesis, > saying that " rennet is > genetically derived from rennin, " therefore, it " is > not " rennin. Rennet is > produced in labs not in a barnyard. > > Some veggies may have a problem with " genetically > derived, " but that's quite > another debate. > > Your continuing to repeat the same claims does not > dispute mine. > > > >>...and anything labelled 'vegetarian rennet' > simply isnt actual rennet.<< > > Labeling was never my issue. It was yours. And, > you have never referenced > formal definitions of either of these terms. > > > >>...It's that simple. Yes, there are vegetarian > options, no Ive never seen anything outside > your one source that backs what you say, and the > multiple sources Ive shown and given links to go > against it.<< > > Simple, huh? It's not a game of gathering the " most > sources. " It's all > about staying focused on challenging what's > presented. > > You started with a true thesis. I present info > saying that the " cheese > making process " was altered in 1990 with the > introduction of a genetically > altered plant based enzyme which mimicked an enzyme > of " rennin. " Your > thesis is now NOT TRUE. > > Not once did you challenge this statement with facts > saying that my thesis > was not true. > > Instead, you relied ONLY on many misapplications of > the word " rennet. " > > There was no discussion about the process being > flawed or of some discovery > which changed it yet again. Your argument continues > only to " loosely " > connect the word " rennet " to " rennin " even after I > make a very clear > distinction between the two. > > > >>I think carrying the conversation on any further > would just prove to be > absurd.<< > > Isn't like wonderful that life gives us such > choices? > > > >>...you steadfastly adhere to one dogmatic > point, from one source only, and refuse to even > acknowledge that;<< > > I suppose you didn't mean " ...just prove to be > absurd " when you wrote it > above. > > If the TRUTH ever become dogmatic, I will in fact be > guilty of asserting it. > > > >>...you are far more likely to be spreadin > 'misinformation' than I.<< > > I'll let the veggie readers of this group decide > that point. > > DaveO > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2003 Report Share Posted February 5, 2003 I did read them, I simply didn't agree that they said what you suggested they did, and I'll let other people in the group speak for themselves. There's nothing to prove. Given the set of facts we debated, some will agree with you and some will not. I'm happy with that outcome, and after all that's how life works... DaveO Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] After reading the following post, I can only come to the conclusion that at best you sklimmed the info I provided and it's not fair for us to continue burdening the group with the subject; we're flogging a dead horse.. you're stating I have or havent done certain things, while Im saying, proof is directly in the archives that you are wrong... which is just going to be a vicious cycle, and not condusive to anything more than frustration. Everything you claim I have or havent done, is in my posts, which are all in the archives. If you don't want to go through them again, you should have read them properly the first time, or not be willing to make those claims. At any rate, I'm imagiing there are quite a few people getting annoyed with the circularity of the situation. Anything you want me to disprove or provide facts for, I will do so in private; after I am confident that you actually have taken the time to do some more research. My posts, which are documented, will speak for themselves, and I don't want to continue a dialogue that becomes redundant in it's repetition. It was informative, though, let's move onto a new subject, or take it out of the group (my gut is telling me people are at about the point where they are ready to just erase any post with a header related to cheese, lol) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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