Guest guest Posted June 20, 2001 Report Share Posted June 20, 2001 vegan-network, " Mccartney, Rowan (R.N.) " <rmccar14@v...> wrote: > >I'd expect the addicts to go " cold cheatin-turkey " in a special > >hospital. Same with alcoholics or people giving up smoking, cutting > >down gradually doesn't work, most ex-addicts of all types will tell > >you, it has to be all or nothing. > > You have very little sympathy/compassion for heroine addicts. They > are victims, like when you get a cold. They are people like you or > me who experiment and get hooked. Who's loved ones die and they They are not people like me, I would not be so stupid! Thankfully I always knew better, and why did I know better? Because I was taught well that these things are harmful. If we get too liberal, kids won't even know these things are harmful and addictive. Attaching some stigma puts a lot of people off trying that rubbish. We need deterrence. You are so into healthy living and avoiding even bad types of fats, so you don't strike me as stupid enough to be a heroin addict, I don't think they are people like you, because you appear to care what is healthy! > turn to > drugs in a moment of desperation. Most heroine addicts won't go cold > turkey until they've reduced their intake to a lower level. This is why > clinics need to hand out heroine, and not methadone. > > > >I don't agree with giving addicts methadone cos they sell it to get more > heroin. They take the doctors > >for mugs, and no wonder! > > Absolutely, that's because heroine addicts hate methadone. > Methadone is not the answer, heroine is. > Give them pure heroine and they won't sell it to buy bad drugs. Why give them heroin? They are not dying in terrible pain from cancer, they don't need it! > And before you argue (then people will use more drugs), they can get > it anyway, it's available freely. > You mean " expensively " surely? > > >If they are serious they will give up immediately and accept that is the > only way, even though it means > >some short-term suffering with withdrawal symptoms. I'm in favour of help > through that difficult time in a >clinic. > > Too idealistic, how do you propose to persuade a heroine addict (who > values the drug more than your life) to go to a clinic (they'll see > prison) and drop something so important to them? It's like expecting a > mentally ill person to see their illness on their own and fix it. > Then there is a case for sectioning them, because if they think that way they must be mentally ill. They will be grateful after they are off it. > > >Just saying that heroin is less dangerous than over the counter pain > >killers doesn't convince me it is safe since I am aware that pain- > >killers are dangerous. > > Heroine isn't dangerous, the war on drugs is what causes > 1. Social exclusion > 2. Sickness > 3. Homelessness and prostitution > 4. The vast majority of crime > 5. The government to have an election issue to blab about. > The drug problem is worse when it is legal, more people experiment, get hooked and die if there is no deterrent, because many people don't possess much common sense. Look how huge killers tobacco and alcohol are, that is only because they are legal, so they are an even bigger problem than the illegal drugs, because people get addicted because it is socially accepted. Do we want the same problem to arise with other drugs which because they are illegal are not currently so common? If we want the same problems with them as we have with tobacco and alcohol then we should go and legalise it all. We already know that making dangerous substances legal doesn't work and causes widespread illness and addiction in society. How would it be different with heroin or cannabis? I already get very ill if I am exposed to tobacco smoke, if cannabis smoke was everywhere too, I would get even sicker. I don't want to have these things inflicted on me, I have rights too. > > The GP in the south somewhere was prescribing heroine and gradually reducing > the dose until they could come of it all together. They also had > counselling. If all GP's were allowed to do this, they'd be no drug > problems, like in 1967 when all GP's could do this. > All of what I've said is fact, not opinion. > Sounds good but I am not convinced that addicts are to be trusted, until they are free of their drugs. Lesley > > RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2001 Report Share Posted June 20, 2001 >They are not people like me, I would not be so stupid! Thankfully I >always knew better, and why did I know better? Because I was taught >well that these things are harmful. If we get too liberal, kids won't >even know these things are harmful and addictive. Attaching some >stigma puts a lot of people off trying that rubbish. We need >deterrence. There will always be people who aren't educated/informed as yourself, these people need protection and education. Making heroine addicts social pariahs, what kind of protection is that? Attaching a stigma makes people like yourself think it deters people from trying it in the first place. You don't have the slightest clue how many people are affected by this problem >You are so into healthy living and avoiding even bad types of fats, >so you don't strike me as stupid enough to be a heroin addict, I >don't think they are people like you, because you appear to care what >is healthy! You're right, I wouldn't be stupid enough. Hey, at least it's vegan. There are people who are stupid enough, this is why decriminalisation is needed. >Why give them heroin? They are not dying in terrible pain from >cancer, they don't need it! Why? No they are not dying from cancer. Here's what they are dying from. 1. Gangrene/ " frostbite " from shooting up with dirty needles and a) Sand b) parecitemol mixed in with their heroine so illegal dealers can make more money. 2. Being homeless as a result of social exclusion 3. Massive overdose - illicit drugs have unknown strength. Now the why question. To stop them committing crime to pay for their drug habit, which further finances dealers. To stop wasting billions of pounds every year to punch the air. Of all the money allocated to fighting drugs, 12% went on education about them. >You mean " expensively " surely? No, freely in the aspect you can get heroine delivered quicker than a pizza (10 min.). A days supply for as little as £15 isn't expensive. Addicts only increase the money they spend on it, and we're (you, me, and the public) paying for it. Next time someone thieves something from your house/person, there's a 75% chance it's to finance their drug habit. Even the police acknowledge how futile a war on drugs is. Ask yourself this. How many children, young adults have £15 and are curious about drugs? Have a guess how many heroine addicts there are now compared to when it was DECRIMINALISED. Lets have a look at what is expensive, Billions spent on combating drugs, not to mention all the other crime that incites. You'd expect with all this money being spent on combating drugs, usage would be down, nope it's up. Drugs would be getting scarce, thus more expensive... nope, they're even cheaper. >Then there is a case for sectioning them, because if they think that >way they must be mentally ill. They will be grateful after they are >off it. You've just agreed with me, heroine addicts are mentally ill. And yes, all heroine addicts will thank you. And finally your last statement, I'm not advocating to be served heroine with your pint down the local. Decriminalisation is what I'm after, i.e.. Look there's a homeless heroine addict begging/committing crimes with large abscesses in their legs and funding crime, look at the poor victim of this war on drugs. Take them, give them a free supply of pure heroine that their GP prescribes every day, get them a council flat while they find their feet and get help for their addiction. What happens to drug dealers when you take the demand for heroine away? You have to be constant, do you want alcohol criminalized? Then we'd be back to the 20's where you got a good dose of methanol-alcohol (brain poison) cut with your ethanol-alcohol, like heroine is today. Decriminalise heroin, crime comes down, insurance comes down, unemployment goes down. These are facts and not speculation. There's not one shred of evidence on the prohibition side that it works. RM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2001 Report Share Posted June 20, 2001 i don't know about the merry UK..but over here in the arsenal of democracy, we spend billions and billions on the " war on drugs " ... *looks around* hmmm...and we don't seem to be getting anywhere.... prohibition has never ever worked...at least, not bloody here...in 1920 when the Volstead Act came into enforcement here, alcohol consumption rose dramatically....drinking became less of a family social affair, and more of a means to escape...opened the way to organized crime..etc i wonder wot it would be like if we had spent all those ducats over the years on things like health care, education, the environment, etc, instead of on a lost cause....the war on drugs.... humankind has used various " drugs " for its entire existence...not condoning, just stating the facts make em legal, and spend the money on other things...education, give folks support systems, health care, housing...drag people out of crushing poverty...sending folks to jail and stigmatizing them is cruel, and certainly doesn't alieviate the problem..... cheers fraggle " Lesley Dove " <100706.3632 wrote: >vegan-network, " Mccartney, Rowan (R.N.) " <rmccar14@v...> >wrote: >> >I'd expect the addicts to go " cold cheatin-turkey " in a special >> >hospital. Same with alcoholics or people giving up smoking, >cutting >> >down gradually doesn't work, most ex-addicts of all types will >tell >> >you, it has to be all or nothing. >> >> You have very little sympathy/compassion for heroine >addicts. They >> are victims, like when you get a cold. They are people like >you or >> me who experiment and get hooked. Who's loved ones die and they > >They are not people like me, I would not be so stupid! Thankfully I >always knew better, and why did I know better? Because I was taught >well that these things are harmful. If we get too liberal, kids won't >even know these things are harmful and addictive. Attaching some >stigma puts a lot of people off trying that rubbish. We need >deterrence. >You are so into healthy living and avoiding even bad types of fats, >so you don't strike me as stupid enough to be a heroin addict, I >don't think they are people like you, because you appear to care what >is healthy! > >> turn to >> drugs in a moment of desperation. Most heroine addicts won't go >cold >> turkey until they've reduced their intake to a lower level. This >is why >> clinics need to hand out heroine, and not methadone. >> >> >> >I don't agree with giving addicts methadone cos they sell it to >get more >> heroin. They take the doctors >> >for mugs, and no wonder! >> >> Absolutely, that's because heroine addicts hate methadone. >> Methadone is not the answer, heroine is. >> Give them pure heroine and they won't sell it to buy bad >drugs. > >Why give them heroin? They are not dying in terrible pain from >cancer, they don't need it! > >> And before you argue (then people will use more drugs), they >can get >> it anyway, it's available freely. >> >You mean " expensively " surely? >> >> >If they are serious they will give up immediately and accept that >is the >> only way, even though it means >> >some short-term suffering with withdrawal symptoms. I'm in favour >of help >> through that difficult time in a >clinic. >> >> Too idealistic, how do you propose to persuade a heroine >addict (who >> values the drug more than your life) to go to a clinic (they'll see >> prison) and drop something so important to them? It's like >expecting a >> mentally ill person to see their illness on their own and fix it. >> >Then there is a case for sectioning them, because if they think that >way they must be mentally ill. They will be grateful after they are >off it. >> >> >Just saying that heroin is less dangerous than over the counter >pain >> >killers doesn't convince me it is safe since I am aware that pain- >> >killers are dangerous. >> >> Heroine isn't dangerous, the war on drugs is what causes >> 1. Social exclusion >> 2. Sickness >> 3. Homelessness and prostitution >> 4. The vast majority of crime >> 5. The government to have an election issue to blab about. >> >The drug problem is worse when it is legal, more people experiment, >get hooked and die if there is no deterrent, because many people >don't possess much common sense. >Look how huge killers tobacco and alcohol are, that is only because >they are legal, so they are an even bigger problem than the illegal >drugs, because people get addicted because it is socially accepted. >Do we want the same problem to arise with other drugs which because >they are illegal are not currently so common? If we want the same >problems with them as we have with tobacco and alcohol then we should >go and legalise it all. We already know that making dangerous >substances legal doesn't work and causes widespread illness and >addiction in society. How would it be different with heroin or >cannabis? >I already get very ill if I am exposed to tobacco smoke, if cannabis >smoke was everywhere too, I would get even sicker. I don't want to >have these things inflicted on me, I have rights too. >> >> The GP in the south somewhere was prescribing heroine and gradually >reducing >> the dose until they could come of it all together. They also had >> counselling. If all GP's were allowed to do this, they'd be no drug >> problems, like in 1967 when all GP's could do this. >> All of what I've said is fact, not opinion. >> >Sounds good but I am not convinced that addicts are to be trusted, >until they are free of their drugs. > >Lesley > >> >> RM > > > >To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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