RE: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

[Guest guest]

What was done and said that was against children/parents bringing children?

I agree, nowhere have I seen London Vegans state children are unwanted.

 

RM

 

 

Lesley Dove [Lesley]

 

I am feeling as mad as hell, although I was not at the meeting

myself! The speaker was from Baby Milk Action, so it would have been

expected that mothers would be there with young children. My friend

had as much or even more right to be there with her child than the

small number of child-intolerants who made it unpleasant for her. So

how dare these people behave this way? Shame on them.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " Mccartney, Rowan (R.N.) " <rmccar14@v...>

wrote:

> What was done and said that was against children/parents bringing

children?

> I agree, nowhere have I seen London Vegans state children are

unwanted.

>

> RM

 

Apparently about three or four people made a fuss because the toddler

made a little bit of noise (well so do dogs sometimes and no-one

complains about them), and most people had no problem and could hear

the speaker just fine, so I think the intolerant ones should have

left if they had a problem. Just a few extreme child-haters make the

meetings unwelcoming to families, they drive so many people away from

London Vegans. It has happened several times in the last few years

that mothers have been verbally attacked for every little noise their

child makes at these meetings. I hear about it happening every few

months. Paul and I have not been for years, apart from last month

when we managed to have my parents to babysit, and this is only

because of the intolerant attitudes we have encountered against

children.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Lesley

 

> I have already heard it from two separate sources that a vegan friend

> of mine with her toddler had to deal with intolerant attitudes at

> London Vegans Monthly Meeting this week.

 

I hadn't liked to say before, but we (my husband, myself and Colin) visited

the monthly London meeting at Country Life once last year. We saw a load of

people, so I asked one " are you the London vegans? " and the person just said

" yes " , and turned back to the table, and no-body looked like making space

for us. So we went to another table, eat our lunch and went home again,

somewhat disappointed.

 

I guess we are used to being welcomed very warmly by Pagan groups that we

visit, and maybe we shouldn't contrast the two, but as I said before, we

were disappointed.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...> wrote:

 

> Lesley

>

> I hadn't liked to say before, but we (my husband, myself and Colin)

visited

> the monthly London meeting at Country Life once last year. We saw

a load of

> people, so I asked one " are you the London vegans? " and the person

just said

> " yes " , and turned back to the table, and no-body looked like making

space

> for us. So we went to another table, eat our lunch and went home

again,

> somewhat disappointed.

>

> I guess we are used to being welcomed very warmly by Pagan groups

that we

> visit, and maybe we shouldn't contrast the two, but as I said

before, we

> were disappointed.

>

And no wonder you were disappointed, maybe Vanessa, the main

organiser was not there on that occasion (occasionally it clashes

with something else and she is not present), I know she is not

unfriendly like that, she is also always very supportive of vegan

families.

I'm so sorry to hear you had such a bad experience, and I am aware

that cliqueyness does exist in some groups. I have experienced it

more in certain local AR groups myself than in London Vegans, before

having children. I had lots of friends in this group before

committing the " crime " of having kids, while still expecting my

friends still to want to know me.

How old is Colin, is he your son and is he child or adult? I thought

your son was grown up. Either way, such an unfriendly attitude is

unacceptable.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Hi Lesley

 

(Got to the PC before Jo, again!)

 

> How old is Colin, is he your son and is he child or adult? I thought

> your son was grown up. Either way, such an unfriendly attitude is

> unacceptable.

 

LOL - I'm Jo's son, Colin is my dad / her husband - I am grown up

(officially!) :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Lesley

 

> How old is Colin, is he your son and is he child or adult? I thought

> your son was grown up. Either way, such an unfriendly attitude is

> unacceptable.

 

Sorry to mislead (Peter says senility is setting in!) Colin is my husband,

and Peter is my son, and yes - he is grown up. We were just a little

surprised that we weren't made to feel welcome, as it is always good to meet

people interested in similar things. I am sure it was an unusuall

occurrence though, and we may yet try again - if ever we get a Sunday free.

 

Jo

[Guest guest]

Name and Shame that's what I say This is the only way to curb bullying .

 

These people have to be working for the enemy. No true vegan would drive people

away and so diminish the strength that we have in numbrs

 

Vegans must support each other to encourage veganism to grow

-

Lesley Dove

vegan-network

Friday, June 29, 2001 10:25 AM

[100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

I have already heard it from two separate sources that a vegan friend

of mine with her toddler had to deal with intolerant attitudes at

London Vegans Monthly Meeting this week.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

What you need to do Lesley is to get all the parents to go{+kids] on the same

night to perhaps out number those who are prejudiced.

 

If nothing else they can all support each other Angie

-

Lesley Dove

vegan-network

Friday, June 29, 2001 10:43 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

vegan-network, " Mccartney, Rowan (R.N.) " <rmccar14@v...>

wrote:

 

Apparently about three or four people made a fuss because the toddler

made a little bit of noise (well so do dogs sometimes and no-one

 

. Just a few extreme child-haters make the

meetings unwelcoming to families, they drive so many people away from

London Vegans.

 

that mothers have been verbally attacked for every little noise their

child makes at these meetings.

 

 

intolerant attitudes we have encountered against

children.

 

Lesley

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I would like to apologise for the extreme rudness of these so called vegans

..they are obviously social inadequates but that in no way excuses there

appalling behaviour to new people

 

In Nottingham we all show friendliness to newcomers Perhaps we are more

civilized North of Watford !!!

 

Joking apart I hope someone on this list can convey the feeling of others of

us regarding London Vegans Angie

-

Heartwork

vegan-network

Friday, June 29, 2001 11:21 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

Lesley

 

I hadn't liked to say before, but we (my husband, myself and Colin) visited

the monthly London meeting at Country Life once last year. We saw a load of

people, so I asked one " are you the London vegans? " and the person just said

" yes " , and turned back to the table, and no-body looked like making space

for us. So we went to another table, eat our lunch and went home again,

somewhat disappointed.

 

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> Name and Shame that's what I say This is the only way to curb

bullying .

>

> These people have to be working for the enemy. No true vegan would

drive people away and so diminish the strength that we have in numbrs

>

> Vegans must support each other to encourage veganism to grow

>

> Angie

 

I've had enough of being nice and reasonable over this so with

pleasure I will name and shame.

 

Rose King, Robin Lane and his girlfriend Alison, and to some extent

Brian Owen. I believe there was another woman whose name I don't know.

I was not there but I know these were some of the least tolerant ones.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> What you need to do Lesley is to get all the parents to go{+kids]

on the same night to perhaps out number those who are prejudiced.

>

> If nothing else they can all support each other Angie

 

I can't get many other vegan families to go, they have been put off

by the bad attitudes there!

I asked them to help me lobby LV on the creche issue, and LV have a

creche policy to try to arrange one with at least a weeks notice. So,

I asked two months in advance about a creche for this June meeting

and had no response from LV! Completely ignored!

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Don't know them apart from rose and she does have very set opinions

and doesn't seem to see other points of view or appreciate the harm she might be

causing.

 

Perhaps someone could explain very carefully to her and the others, but there is

no guarantee that they would understand or care

 

It is a very selfish uncaring attitude and is rarely found in vegans that I know

 

in fact many of us have to make a real effort to be nasty on demos because it is

against our natures Angie

 

 

 

 

 

-

Lesley Dove

vegan-network

Saturday, June 30, 2001 12:23 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

 

I've had enough of being nice and reasonable over this so with

pleasure I will name and shame.

 

Rose King, Robin Lane and his girlfriend Alison, and to some extent

Brian Owen. I believe there was another woman whose name I don't know.

I was not there but I know these were some of the least tolerant ones.

 

Lesley

 

 

 

To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to:

vegan-network-digest

 

[Guest guest]

Can those who go from this list pass on these concerns not once but every chance

you get .Vegans must not isolate other vegans especially the new generation of

vegan kids

 

WE might lose them for good if they are new to the diet .Especially if they are

looking for help and get hostility.

 

I found it hard when I started .I was on my own {30yrs ago],but I'm beginning to

think that it was an advantage. I only had animal eaters telling me thatI was

doing things that were not appropriate[ and I didn't care about their opinion !

]

 

But to have your own kind against you especially when you are providing vegans

of the future is unforgiveable .they could easily just become veggies ---less

hassle !!!

 

We need young vegans to fight for the likes of me when I;m in an Old Persons

home and they don't provide vegan food.

 

I might be too senile to fight by then {no comments please !!!!]

 

-

Lesley Dove

vegan-network

Saturday, June 30, 2001 12:39 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

vegan-network, " Angie Wright " <Angie

 

I can't get many other vegan families to go, they have been put off

by the bad attitudes there!

I asked them to help me lobby LV on the creche issue, and LV have a

creche policy to try to arrange one with at least a weeks notice. So,

I asked two months in advance about a creche for this June meeting

and had no response from LV! Completely ignored!

 

Lesley

 

 

 

To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to:

vegan-network-digest

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo,

 

I am sorry to hear that you weren't welcomed by the London vegan

group. It must be a little disheartenening when you've made a special

effort to attend, expecting to be warmly greeted. I would feel really

disapointed too.

 

I went to the vegan gathering last year with my little boy (who was

one year old at the time). I remember expecting to be warmly

welcomed. There were some fantastic people there, especially those

with children, but there were also occasions where others (notably

those without children), who seemed very cold and distant, and

couldn't even so much as force a simple 'hello' out! It couldn't have

been because my little boy was fussing, because he wasn't. The whole

experience has put me off wanting to go this year at all.

 

I have noticed a very narrow minded intollerant attitude among some

vegans. Conversley, some of the most beautiful and loving people I

have met have are vegans.

 

You mention Paganism. I have noticed that Pagans seems to be in

favour of vegetarianism. Excuse my unknowingness, but why is that so?

I also wondered if being a Pagan led you to vegetarianism, or if

being a vegetarian led you to Paganism. Please do share, if you care

to.

 

Love and peace

 

Anastasia

[Guest guest]

Hi Anastasia

 

Hope you don't mind me " butting in " on this one....

 

> The whole

> experience has put me off wanting to go this year at all.

 

Perhaps we ought to set up a support group for vegans who've been ignored at

vegan gatherings - there seem to be a few of us! :-(

 

> I have noticed a very narrow minded intollerant attitude among some

> vegans. Conversley, some of the most beautiful and loving people I

> have met have are vegans.

 

I've only personally known (as in met face to face rather than on e-mail) 3

other vegans - two of them I met through an animal rights group - they were

very forthright, but their hearts were in the right place - the other one I

sing in a choir with, and she's always been friendly enough.

 

> You mention Paganism. I have noticed that Pagans seems to be in

> favour of vegetarianism.

> Excuse my unknowingness, but why is that so?

 

Don't I wish! Actually, that's not quite fair - I'd say there's probably a

larger percentage of vegetarians in Paganism than in most other religious /

spiritual groups (with the obvious exception of things like Hindu and Hare

Krishna!). Unfortunately, you also get the same " intollerant " people amongst

Paganism as you find in the rest of the meat eating community - although

they've learned to keep quiet now, as I'm one of those strange people who

enjoy a good " discussion " (ahem), and usually keep arguing the point after

they've got fed up!

 

It's a difficult question to answer because " Paganism " covers such a wide

range of beliefs / lifestyles / people etc. - we were recently discussing

what the definition of " Paganism " was, and came to the conclusion that the

only thing all Pagans agreed on was tolerance for everyone else's spiritual

beliefs (yeah, I know that contradicts what I've just said above - but then,

how many people practice what they claim to believe???)!!! One of the more

common aspects (unless you ask a Heathen) is a respect for nature - and to

me it would be difficult to respect nature and abuse it at the same time! I

hope that sort of answers your question!

 

> I also wondered if being a Pagan led you to vegetarianism, or if

> being a vegetarian led you to Paganism. Please do share, if you care

> to.

 

Actually, for me, neither! I've held pretty much the same spiritual views

since I was about 4 years old, but didn't know anyone else shared some of

those views until about 4 years ago! About that time, I started to think

seriously about what was going on in the world, and decided to go

vegetarian - and about 3 months later I stumbled across Paganism, and found

it " fitted " !

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I know a vegan pagan ', and would be interested in knowing more about it please

Jo Angie

-

anastasiastatham

vegan-network

Saturday, June 30, 2001 9:43 PM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

Hi Jo,

 

You mention Paganism. I have noticed that Pagans seems to be in

favour of vegetarianism. Excuse my unknowingness, but why is that so?

I also wondered if being a Pagan led you to vegetarianism, or if

being a vegetarian led you to Paganism. Please do share, if you care

to.

 

Love and peace

 

Anastasia

 

 

 

 

 

 

To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to:

vegan-network-digest

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Angie

 

> I know a vegan pagan ', and would be interested in knowing more about it

please Jo Angie

 

Who are they, and where are they from - Pagans are a pretty close-knit

bunch, so I might know them!

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

vegan-network, anastasiastatham@c... wrote:

>

> I went to the vegan gathering last year with my little boy (who was

> one year old at the time). I remember expecting to be warmly

> welcomed. There were some fantastic people there, especially those

> with children, but there were also occasions where others (notably

> those without children), who seemed very cold and distant, and

> couldn't even so much as force a simple 'hello' out! It couldn't

have

> been because my little boy was fussing, because he wasn't. The

whole

> experience has put me off wanting to go this year at all.

>

 

I have heard that Vegan Gathering is not all that family-friendly

anyway, whereas Vegan Camp is much more so and mostly run by vegans

who are parents themselves.

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

she lives in Nott'm and comes to the veg /vegan social group which started up

recently Can't remember her name at the moment Angie

-

Peter Kebbell

vegan-network

Sunday, July 01, 2001 10:25 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] The child-hating vegans are at it again

 

 

Hi Angie

 

Who are they, and where are they from - Pagans are a pretty close-knit

bunch, so I might know them!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to:

vegan-network-digest

 

[Guest guest]

--- >

> Actually, for me, neither! I've held pretty much the same spiritual

views

> since I was about 4 years old, but didn't know anyone else shared

some of

> those views until about 4 years ago!

 

I never knew that 4 year olds could have spiritual beliefs like that.

My understanding of things developed with experience in our 'crazy'

world. My upbringing was pretty 'conventional', and it wasn't until I

was in high school that I went vegetarian (although my little

brother went veggie when he was 10 by choice!). Do you think that the

way your parents raised you has anything to do with your beliefs and

compassion towards nature?

 

> About that time, I started to think

> seriously about what was going on in the world, and decided to go

> vegetarian - and about 3 months later I stumbled across Paganism,

and found

> it " fitted " !

 

 

I am glad it works for you! Don't know too much about it though.

 

 

love and peace

 

anastasia

[Guest guest]

Hi Anastasia

 

> I never knew that 4 year olds could have spiritual beliefs like that.

 

IMHO, most 4 year olds have a much deeper understanding of spirituality than

most adults - I think the less you " learn " about what other people want you

to think, the more you are able to understand your own feelings / thoughts.

I firmly believe that most four year olds lose a lot of their spiritual

outlook as they become more " educated " - I'm just incredibly stubborn, and

won't just believe what anyone tells me - consequently, I spent about 15 to

20 years thinking my beliefs were completely unique!

 

> My understanding of things developed with experience in our 'crazy'

> world.

 

That, IMHO, is precisely the problem when it comes to spirituality - it's

all about feelings (whether Pagan, Christian, Islamic or whatever) - if it

doesn't feel right, you'll never truly believe it. As " intelligence "

develops, we learn to question our feelings, rather than simply accept them

for what they are.

 

> Do you think that the

> way your parents raised you has anything to do with your beliefs and

> compassion towards nature?

 

Partly - they didn't " force " any religious outlook on me - they " discovered "

Paganism at the same time I did, and their beliefs are slightly different to

mine - but we were all surprised when we found out how much we agreed with

each other over certain aspects!

 

> I am glad it works for you! Don't know too much about it though.

 

LOL - there's not much to know, really - you get all sorts of people /

views - from people who follow a particular religion such as Wicca, to

people who follow their own - like me! You've got Heathens who follow

(largely pre-christian) pantheons of gods, people who venerate an Earth

Goddess and/or a Sun God, even a few Christians who don't quite accept the

version of Christianity presented by any of the major churches. You've got

monotheists, pantheists, polytheists and atheists. If you want a definition,

the Pagan Federation define the beliefs as:

 

1. Venerating / respecting nature (which Heathens would disagree with)

2. Not accepting a sexist version of divinity (which Dianic Wiccans would

disagree with)

3. Following an ethic of " an it harm none " (which quite a few disagree

with - at least by their actions!)

 

And yes, it is as disogarnised as it sounds!!!

 

BB

Peter