Guest guest Posted November 21, 2001 Report Share Posted November 21, 2001 Sorry Jo - Barry Horne. We've been having lively discussions about him on and I guess I forgot that we haven't here. The effects of his earlier hunger strike meant that his last one was short-lived before his kidneys gave out and he died. Some see him as a hero, some as a martyr, some as a dangerous extremist. I just wish he wasn't dead. Cathy. > ---------- > Jo[sMTP:Heartwork] > > I'm sorry to be ignorant who was BH, and what happened? I'm afraid I > can't > keep up with all that's going on, no matter how hard I try. > > Jo > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2001 Report Share Posted November 21, 2001 Cathy > Sorry Jo - Barry Horne. We've been having lively discussions about him on > and I guess I forgot that we haven't here. The effects of his > earlier hunger strike meant that his last one was short-lived before his > kidneys gave out and he died. Some see him as a hero, some as a martyr, > some as a dangerous extremist. I just wish he wasn't dead. Of course! I didn't know. That's a shame. I too wish he hadn't died. The disparity in length of imprisonment for various 'crimes' astonishes me. A rapist or paedophile gets 5 to 9 years - Barry Horne got 18 for animal rights activities, didn't he! Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2001 Report Share Posted November 21, 2001 Jo wrote: > > Of course! I didn't know. That's a shame. I too wish he hadn't died. The > disparity in length of imprisonment for various 'crimes' astonishes me. A > rapist or paedophile gets 5 to 9 years - Barry Horne got 18 for animal > rights activities, didn't he! > When Cathy said " some see him as a dangerous extremist " , she was thinking of me. IMHO, what he did was dangerous. Then again, I agree with everything said on this list about him. I wish he had not died. And the length of his sentence was pretty absurd - you can put someone in a wheelchair and only get a couple of years, whereas he got 18 for property damage and unintentionally endangering. > Jo > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.286 / Virus Database: 152 - Release 09/10/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2001 Report Share Posted November 21, 2001 > ---------- > Dr Ian McDonald[sMTP:ian.mcdonald] > > When Cathy said " some see him as a dangerous extremist " , she was > thinking of me. IMHO, what he did was dangerous. > Believe it or not Ian, I wasn't particularly picking on you :-) . I am aware that the vast majority of people would condemn his acts out of hand and indeed most people would probably not flinch to hear him described as a terorist - a term which is bandied about a bit too much for my liking these days. > Then again, I agree with everything said on this list about him. I wish > he had not died. And the length of his sentence was pretty absurd - you > can put someone in a wheelchair and only get a couple of years, whereas > he got 18 for property damage and unintentionally endangering. > Have you not heard? There's not justice, only us. I normally loathe cliches but by heaven this one's right. The Steve Christmas affair has soured me forever on our legal system. AR-motivated crimes seem to attract a much higher rate of conviction and punishment than those inflicted on AR folk, or even similar crimes motivated by self-gain. If I am ever unlucky enough to be charged with an AR-related crime, I shall swear that I was in it for the money. If they believe me it will automatically halve my sentence or even get me off with a caution. Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 2001 Report Share Posted November 22, 2001 Cathy > Have you not heard? There's not justice, only us. I normally loathe cliches > but by heaven this one's right. The Steve Christmas affair has soured me > forever on our legal system. AR-motivated crimes seem to attract a much > higher rate of conviction and punishment than those inflicted on AR folk, or > even similar crimes motivated by self-gain. If I am ever unlucky enough to > be charged with an AR-related crime, I shall swear that I was in it for the > money. If they believe me it will automatically halve my sentence or even > get me off with a caution. I know it's almost impossible to get any police action if you are attacked. The first hunt we sabbed a horsebox was driven up the bank straight at us. Peter jumped out of the way, and my husband shoved me up the bank - sustaining bruising to his arm and shoulder by being hit by the horsebox. We took the number of the horsebox, a photo of the tyre tracks two feet over the edge of the grass verge, and pointed the horsebox out to the police who were in attendance. We had twenty witnesses! We had to insist that the police took down details, and had to chase them up til eventually they went to see the people who owned the horsebox - some richies, who own one of the large estates in Sussex that people pay to go and see. Of course, we heard back that there was no evidence it was done on purpose - it is so hard to drive these horseboxes. The fact is, if you hit someone, even by accident, I thought it was against the law to drive on - but there you go - no protection for hunt sabs! Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2002 Report Share Posted March 12, 2002 > He might not be " just a firebomber " but he was, nevertheless, a > firebomber. I don¹t know, I am a bit disappointed Ian. strictly speaking I would not say that Barry Horne was a firebomber at all. this was one point I was making. he was not an arsonist going out with the intent to start fires which is what he got sent down for. he was an civil rights going out with the intent to stop animal rights abuses. I have always been disgusted at the bias of the law toward the protection of property over the protection of individuals rights [ never mind animals or the environment ]. in fact he got punished even more to be made an " example of " sadly, it reminds us of whose law it is. I often noted that if Horne and his like had raped or murdered they would have gotten off far more lightly than for what they did. the scale of punishment in current laws against arson are a bit anachronistic. routed as if they in the middle ages. it is very convenient for the establishment to be able to diminish what the likes of these people do by reinterpreting sticking some other lesser crime onto their actions. this country has no provision for " crimes of conscience " which is what he did and is never likely to for as long as it is against the interests of the establishment. it is abhorrent that courts are going out of their way to increase punishments of environmental and animal right activists in Europe but more so in the USA. the branding of conscientious objectors or criminals of conscience as " terrorists " . It stinks of the same bad breath that opposed the civil rights movement for African Americans so maliciously for so long. or in fact those that opposed the the nascent American Nation earlier. to speak with that same breath lowers you to becoming one of their lackeys promulgating their oppressive consciousness. but may be you find some solace in the moral high ground? >> It is an uncomfortable truth but it this sort of radicalism does work at a >> price. In fact, I would go as far as saying, sadly, that history has proven >> time and time again that it is the only thing that works about creating >> notable changes, e.g. the use of freedom fighting in the Indian Independence >> movement. > > When did Gandhi firebomb anything? He didn't. But at the same time as he was doing his non-violent thing, a whole load of other guys were blowing up railway lines, pulling down telegraph poles, attacking [ and being attacked by ] the British Army and generally , making life difficult for the colonial power. it is a complete misjudgement of history to believe that Gandhi made it all happen his way. I would be hard pressed to find the references but I think he acknowledged this and it was the bi-polar attack on the Empire that brought about Indian Independence in which the radicals played at least an equal part. this clearly relates to the animal rights and environmental movements. a few more deaths on either side are inevitable for " something will have to be done about it " . can you really believe that progress happens from a few nice folk writing polite letters or rational argument? all respect to them but you look at any major human rights or environmental issue that has arisen in the last two hundred and it sure as hell required heads being knocked, blood being spilt and some innocent folk dying. > Barry Horne died from the strain of a hunger strike getting a Royal > Commission about experiments on animals that was included in a pre-1997 > Labour policy document on AR (a non-manifesto commitment). I guess I am just cynical about the results of any governmental or establishmental action. john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2002 Report Share Posted March 16, 2002 Ian wrote: > > sadly, it reminds us of whose law it is. > Ours, ultimately. (And the Lords, but they are on the way out.) Sorry, I guess this is a bit off topic, but describing the Law as " ours " warrants further discussion. English law, and I'm no expert, has evolved over the years (most particularly the last 200 or so) and has been designed in the main to benefit the dominant classes at any particular time (those with economic/political power or influence). I don't know about you, but that certainly doesn't include me. If, by your reference to the House of Lords, you're saying that we have some redress through the House of Commons, well you just have to look at the Hunting with Dogs bill, only recently given new life to save Stephen Byers' skin. And this on a relatively " soft " issue. Unfortunately, without easy access to mainstream media, actions like Barry Horne's are one of the few ways to bring " harder " issues to the attention of the public. (Ok, so that doesn't mean we have to condone it) > can you really believe that progress happens from a few > nice folk writing polite letters or rational argument? > > all respect to them but you look at any major human rights or environmental > issue that has arisen in the last two hundred and it sure as hell required > > heads being knocked, blood being spilt and some innocent folk dying. > Who died to get the RSPCA founded? That was a big deal in its day. With all due respect to the RSPCA, if we have to look to it as some indication of " progress " I would suggest that we haven't come all that far! Jane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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