Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Since > going vegan i have in no way contributed to the leather industry or farming > industry etc and nor do i intend on doing so again, so in the meantime is it > wrong to wear my old punk jacket again? what is the point in just keeping it > stuck in the wardrobe when i've had it for so long and it still has a good > bit of durability left in it? Does anyone else out there wear any leather > items that they bought before going vegan or do you think it is still wrong > to do so? any feedback would be greatly appreciated. imho, it is better to use things we already own which aren't vegan than to leave them to go to waste. this means we aren't throwing away goods which for the majority of the world it would be a luxury to own, we are saving valuable resources, and also it means that the animal didn't give the products to us needlessly, didn't die pointlessly. sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 It's up to you. Do you think you are setting a bad example for veganism by wearing it? If you don't then you have your answer. If you do then give it away to a charity shop and buy/save up for a vegan alternative. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 hahaha this has to be the most discussed item here and on several other vegan lists lol maybe we should send out a booklet!! it is all up to you..its how you feel...i'd wear it until you were able to replace it.... its not like you are killing more animals because of it... but, it is all how YOU feel!!! cheers fraggle " Ewan " <subvert_normality wrote: >Hi, >I have been vegan for just over a year now, and in that time, apart from my >DMs i have worn no leather, which has meant my battered old biker jacket has >been sitting in the wardrobe. It cost a fair bit when i bought it and i >spent ages painting various things on it, and i feel it's a waste. Since >going vegan i have in no way contributed to the leather industry or farming >industry etc and nor do i intend on doing so again, so in the meantime is it >wrong to wear my old punk jacket again? what is the point in just keeping it >stuck in the wardrobe when i've had it for so long and it still has a good >bit of durability left in it? Does anyone else out there wear any leather >items that they bought before going vegan or do you think it is still wrong >to do so? any feedback would be greatly appreciated. >Cheers > >Ewan. > > >To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2002 Report Share Posted May 29, 2002 Ewan, I've had to deal with the same issues but with just shoes and belts never having been into leather much anyway. I found that I didn't want to wear any leather anymore. It's actually painful to me because I am so acutely aware of what it is and what it represents. As all things carry vibrations, so too the skin of a murdered animal does. Those vibrations affect you whether you are aware of it or not. It would be better for your growth not to wear it anymore. If you continue to wear it you are also advertising to others that leather is ok and it really isn't. I also don't recommend giving it to someone else. If I were you I'd put it in the closet and leave it there as a reminder of what and who I once was. Brad - Ewan vegan-network Wednesday, May 29, 2002 7:08 AM [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma Hi, I have been vegan for just over a year now, and in that time, apart from my DMs i have worn no leather, which has meant my battered old biker jacket has been sitting in the wardrobe. It cost a fair bit when i bought it and i spent ages painting various things on it, and i feel it's a waste. Since going vegan i have in no way contributed to the leather industry or farming industry etc and nor do i intend on doing so again, so in the meantime is it wrong to wear my old punk jacket again? what is the point in just keeping it stuck in the wardrobe when i've had it for so long and it still has a good bit of durability left in it? Does anyone else out there wear any leather items that they bought before going vegan or do you think it is still wrong to do so? any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Ewan. To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 I also don't recommend giving it to someone else. If I were you I'd put it in the closet and leave it there as a reminder of what and who I once was. Brad i disagree. i think if someone wants a leather jacket, its better to give them one from a previously dead cow than having to kill anotehr one. if theyre going to wear it anyway, may as well help make reduce the problem a little. plus if someone else is wearing it, you can always be like 'hey, see that jacket? i painted that!' spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Perhaps but there's also karma associated with providing a leather jacket to another person. You're assuming it will replace one that someone else would buy anyway but that might not be the case.Anyway you'd be a leather products distributor then for that one jacket. - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Wednesday, May 29, 2002 7:18 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma I also don't recommend giving it to someone else. If I were you I'd put it in the closet and leave it there as a reminder of what and who I once was. Brad i disagree. i think if someone wants a leather jacket, its better to give them one from a previously dead cow than having to kill anotehr one. if theyre going to wear it anyway, may as well help make reduce the problem a little. plus if someone else is wearing it, you can always be like 'hey, see that jacket? i painted that!' spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Hi Ewan, I would say anything you do in life is your own choice, it all depends on how you feel. The only problem you may find is that non veggies will always, and I mean always, question you about it and you will have to be prepared to defend yourself, it's just the kind of thing they leap on to try and discredit you. I only say this because my hubby did the same with his trainers. He felt he couldn't give worn trainers to a charity shop and so carried on wearing them till they were no good, so as not to be frivolous. I can't tell you the amount of times he was questioned agressively over them and I think he was glad when they went in the bin. I still have a wooly jumper that I wear around the house. Just follow your heart! Love Shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 Perhaps but there's also karma associated with providing a leather jacket to another person. You're assuming it will replace one that someone else would buy anyway but that might not be the case.Anyway you'd be a leather products distributor then for that one jacket. i guess i dont see that. if its ok to wear leather til it wears out, is it ok to eat meat that would otherwise be wasted? why are we vegan if we choose to let animals die that will never be eaten? where do we draw the line? i had a vegan friend once who liked to wear leather, and he BOUGHT leather as well but justified it by buying it second hand. i wish i could say to each his own, but to me leather is never vegan, no matter when you made the purchase. call me a hypocrite if you want since i watch movies, drive a car, wear rubber shoes, etc... but i think killing an animal for leather is a lot more direct than putting their ground up bones in movie reels. spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 >Perhaps but there's also karma associated with providing a leather jacket >to another person. Why is there bad karma in giving away a leather jacket to charity, but not in going around and deriving pleasure from having a dead cow skin wrapped around you? Michael (I was intentionally being emotive in my language to highlight my thinking that that argument is somewhat illogical) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 I'm not sure what your point is. Are you disagreeing with me? - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Thursday, May 30, 2002 5:59 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma Perhaps but there's also karma associated with providing a leather jacket to another person. You're assuming it will replace one that someone else would buy anyway but that might not be the case.Anyway you'd be a leather products distributor then for that one jacket. i guess i dont see that. if its ok to wear leather til it wears out, is it ok to eat meat that would otherwise be wasted? why are we vegan if we choose to let animals die that will never be eaten? where do we draw the line? i had a vegan friend once who liked to wear leather, and he BOUGHT leather as well but justified it by buying it second hand. i wish i could say to each his own, but to me leather is never vegan, no matter when you made the purchase. call me a hypocrite if you want since i watch movies, drive a car, wear rubber shoes, etc... but i think killing an animal for leather is a lot more direct than putting their ground up bones in movie reels. spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 There is karma in both cases. Honestly, when I became a vegan, I wasn't sure what to do with my leather things. I couldn't see continuing to use them and I couldn't see giving them to anyone either. It seemed to make sense to me to just put them in the closet and not do anything with them. Maybe that's a cop out. - Mavreela vegan-network Thursday, May 30, 2002 6:07 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma >Perhaps but there's also karma associated with providing a leather jacket >to another person. Why is there bad karma in giving away a leather jacket to charity, but not in going around and deriving pleasure from having a dead cow skin wrapped around you? Michael (I was intentionally being emotive in my language to highlight my thinking that that argument is somewhat illogical) To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 no i just didnt understand how giving away something that you arent comfortable keeping would make you a distributor. kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: I'm not sure what your point is. Are you disagreeing with me? - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2002 Report Share Posted May 30, 2002 That makes you a distributor of one item. If you aren't comfortable with it, there's a good reason. Why then pass it on to someone else if there's a reason you don't want it for yourself. On some level there's something bad associated with it and you are passing that bad thing to another person who will then have to deal with it in some way whether or not they are vegans now or not. - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:45 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma no i just didnt understand how giving away something that you arent comfortable keeping would make you a distributor. kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: I'm not sure what your point is. Are you disagreeing with me? - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 >Why then pass it on to someone else if there's a reason you don't want it >for yourself. Because the alternative is wasteful, because you can do more good by giving it away to charity, because if you just bury it the animal's life was not only taken from it, but was also done in vain. >...passing that bad thing to another person who will then have to deal >with it in some way whether or not they are vegans now or not. Meat eater angst over leather. Well I never. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 The animal's life was wrongfully taken that can never be undone. That life is honored by you by having come to realize that it is wrong to take life and by your having become a vegan never to do so again. By keeping it, it serves as a reminder to you of what you have done and where you are now so as to strengthen your commitment to veganism. Meat eaters do at some level know that to kill animals is wrong even if they aren't consciously aware of it simply because of the God in them that is there however deeply buried. The last thing the meat eater needs is more death and pain karma to deal with on top of what they've already got. The animal did not die in vain because it's life is being honored by you as having been the last murder participating you did which will ever be a mark upon you for which you will spend however many years in this life and others to atone for. In some future life you will be murdered by that animal to balance the books. If I were to participate in the murder your father and make a jacket out of him and then realize that it was wrong to have done so, resolving never to do so again, would it be better to give the jacket, which carries with it his pain, horror and suffering, as well as the sadness and pain of your other family members over his death and the horrible circumstances thereof, to another or keep it? When you give such a thing to another you also give the pain, suffering, and horror that goes with it. Those vibrations are part of the jacket and they are felt on some level by whomever comes into contact with it. - Mavreela vegan-network Friday, May 31, 2002 3:13 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma >Why then pass it on to someone else if there's a reason you don't want it >for yourself. Because the alternative is wasteful, because you can do more good by giving it away to charity, because if you just bury it the animal's life was not only taken from it, but was also done in vain. >...passing that bad thing to another person who will then have to deal >with it in some way whether or not they are vegans now or not. Meat eater angst over leather. Well I never. Michael To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 I was only offering an answer as to why there is a benefit in giving away leather artifacts. >By keeping it, it serves as a reminder to you of what you have done and >where you are now so as to strengthen your commitment to veganism. I would have to say, though, that if you need to do that then clearly you need to think more carefully as to why you are vegan that you need to be surrounded by reminders. >Meat eaters do at some level know that to kill animals is wrong even if >they aren't consciously aware of it simply because of the God in them that >is there however deeply buried. You see, here we go again. You are putting your own metaphysical beliefs onto everyone else. I have no problem with you believing what you do, nor in keeping leather artifacts as they serve some positive function to you. Nor though would I dismiss someone who gave to charity etc. Someone who eats meat, however, is a different matter for all the reasons you see given in ethics and environmental studies. >If I were to participate in the murder your father and make a jacket out >of him and then realize that it was wrong to have done so, resolving never >to do so again, would it be better to give the jacket, which carries with >it his pain, horror and suffering, as well as the sadness and pain of your >other family members over his death and the horrible >circumstances thereof, to another or keep it? Nice question, highly lacking in any analogy with the matter at hand mind. Aside from the fact that I don't know if you are setting this up in a hypothetical land where wearing father skin coats is acceptable (which would be analogous to cow leather) or not but certainly I can't imagine any family in our society that would want to keep such a coat. > When you give such a thing to another you also give the pain, suffering, > and horror that goes with it. Those vibrations are part of the jacket and > they are felt on some level by whomever comes into contact with it. I do not in any way believe in such vibrations. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Thanks everyone who contributed feedback to my moral dillemma, a lot of interesting points and arguements were raised but after much soul searching and talking to vegan and non-vegan friends alike i have decided that i am sure that i will definately never buy any leather goods again and haven't done so since turning vegan, but in defense of the jacket; i have no other waterproof/partcularly warm jackets. It cost my parents quite a few quid when i got it 6 years ago and now I'm totally skint so i can't afford a vegan replacement. Before i was veggie me and that jacket were inseperable and the artworks fantastic if i do say so myself. Not wearing the jacket won't bring the cow back. 3 of my favourite bands are the Clash, the Misfits and the Ramones so i've already got a bit of a thing for the leather jacket image (terrible excuse i know!). On the other hand however; i'm sure i'd feel concious of the fact that i'm wearing leather. I'd have to defend my beliefs even more to people. I'd feel like an advertisement for leather and as such i'd feel just slightly stupid asking for vegan food and causing the usual fuss that tends to ensue. So, my best friend (a non-vegan as it happens) suggested the compromise of wearing it out for maybe a week or less - if i feel comfortable wearing it then i at least have some justification for doing so; owning it for 5 years before i turned vegan and having no intention of ever contributing to the leather industry again in the forseeable future - if i feel like a hypocrite wearing it then thats fine as well, i'm sure i could find another home for it if i asked about. So thats what i think i'm gonna do, i'll be sure and let you know how it turns out. Thanks again. Ewan. xxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 sorta in the same boat Ewan..i still have my old leather jacket, because a. i've had it since, egads, am i that old??..lets just say i've had it for more then a decade by a number of years b. i can not afford a replacememt c. riding a motorcycle w/o a thick jacket is suicide.... d. i don't think i have a d.... fraggle " Ewan " <subvert_normality wrote: > Thanks everyone who contributed feedback to my moral dillemma, a lot of >interesting points and arguements were raised but after much soul searching >and talking to vegan and non-vegan friends alike i have decided that i am >sure that i will definately never buy any leather goods again and haven't >done so since turning vegan, but in defense of the jacket; i have no other >waterproof/partcularly warm jackets. It cost my parents quite a few quid >when i got it 6 years ago and now I'm totally skint so i can't afford a >vegan replacement. Before i was veggie me and that jacket were inseperable >and the artworks fantastic if i do say so myself. Not wearing the jacket >won't bring the cow back. 3 of my favourite bands are the Clash, the Misfits >and the Ramones so i've already got a bit of a thing for the leather jacket >image (terrible excuse i know!). > On the other hand however; i'm sure i'd feel concious of the fact that >i'm wearing leather. I'd have to defend my beliefs even more to people. I'd >feel like an advertisement for leather and as such i'd feel just slightly >stupid asking for vegan food and causing the usual fuss that tends to ensue. > So, my best friend (a non-vegan as it happens) suggested the compromise >of wearing it out for maybe a week or less - if i feel comfortable wearing >it then i at least have some justification for doing so; owning it for 5 >years before i turned vegan and having no intention of ever contributing to >the leather industry again in the forseeable future - if i feel like a >hypocrite wearing it then thats fine as well, i'm sure i could find another >home for it if i asked about. > So thats what i think i'm gonna do, i'll be sure and let you know how it >turns out. Thanks again. > >Ewan. >xxx > > > >To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 It's a fact of human nature that in every argument people have to have the last word and be " right " . By using you father as an analogy I was trying to personalize the issue to the limit because in a very real sense all living things are members of a family. >I can't imagine any family in our society that would want to keep such a coat. But it's ok to let someone else keep it if we can see the point that it's there father too. I have faith in our meat eating brothers and sisters. Weren't you and I meat eaters at one time. The truth is that nothing is solid and still. All things are vibrating all of the time and they send out waves that touch and affect every other thing and person whether you believe it or not you are still affected. These waves consist of everything that ever happened or ever will happen. That's why some people can get impressions by touching a thing or another being about it's past or future. We are however at different places a long The Path and must do what we feel is right according to where we are so that what feels right to me doesn't to you. That's ok. - Mavreela vegan-network Friday, May 31, 2002 9:09 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma I was only offering an answer as to why there is a benefit in giving away leather artifacts. >By keeping it, it serves as a reminder to you of what you have done and >where you are now so as to strengthen your commitment to veganism. I would have to say, though, that if you need to do that then clearly you need to think more carefully as to why you are vegan that you need to be surrounded by reminders. >Meat eaters do at some level know that to kill animals is wrong even if >they aren't consciously aware of it simply because of the God in them that >is there however deeply buried. You see, here we go again. You are putting your own metaphysical beliefs onto everyone else. I have no problem with you believing what you do, nor in keeping leather artifacts as they serve some positive function to you. Nor though would I dismiss someone who gave to charity etc. Someone who eats meat, however, is a different matter for all the reasons you see given in ethics and environmental studies. >If I were to participate in the murder your father and make a jacket out >of him and then realize that it was wrong to have done so, resolving never >to do so again, would it be better to give the jacket, which carries with >it his pain, horror and suffering, as well as the sadness and pain of your >other family members over his death and the horrible >circumstances thereof, to another or keep it? Nice question, highly lacking in any analogy with the matter at hand mind. Aside from the fact that I don't know if you are setting this up in a hypothetical land where wearing father skin coats is acceptable (which would be analogous to cow leather) or not but certainly I can't imagine any family in our society that would want to keep such a coat. > When you give such a thing to another you also give the pain, suffering, > and horror that goes with it. Those vibrations are part of the jacket and > they are felt on some level by whomever comes into contact with it. I do not in any way believe in such vibrations. Michael To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 we associate leather with bad because we are vegan, people who are not vegan dont think leather is bad, therefore to them its not bad. if you feel uncomfortable with something, it doesnt necessarily mean its bad in general, just bad for YOU. - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 Hi, I'm new here. My brother, who is a typcial american lifestyle, does think meat and leather is bad, however he uses both of them. I think of " good " and " abd " as judgements that aren't directly innate characteristics of things. Like leather can be described in terms of where it comes from, and what happens to the animals, and environment. It can be described in specific descriptions, amounts of water waste, number of animals killed, etc. But " bad " is something that can't be measured or observed. If I was a bull being killed, it wouldn't matter to me if people thought it was bad or not, regardless of their judgements, I'd still be killed. I think is the fundamental thing to consider, and not how we feel about it. I think I should think of how both I -and- the animals feel about it, since we both matter more than just me alone. All a matter of knowing what is happening, paying attention to how it makes me feel, and making a decision based on how I feel and what I know Jon J, from PA - " Priscilla Pelkey " <pink_felixxx <vegan-network > Friday, May 31, 2002 3:00 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma > > we associate leather with bad because we are vegan, people who are not vegan dont think leather is bad, therefore to them its not bad. if you feel uncomfortable with something, it doesnt necessarily mean its bad in general, just bad for YOU. > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 >All things are vibrating all of the time... While I don't agree with you about the nature and results of everything vibrating, I do admit that I was rash and foolish to deny physics which also suggest that everything vibrates. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 It's all connected. " A human being is a part of the whole, called by us the 'Universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to fee ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security. " - Albert Einstein - Mavreela vegan-network Friday, May 31, 2002 6:09 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma >All things are vibrating all of the time... While I don't agree with you about the nature and results of everything vibrating, I do admit that I was rash and foolish to deny physics which also suggest that everything vibrates. Michael To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 I >kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 >vegan-network >vegan-network >Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma >Fri, 31 May 2002 07:04:04 -0400 > >The animal's life was wrongfully taken that can never be undone. That life >is honored by you by having come to realize >that it is wrong to take life and by your having become a vegan never to do >so again. By keeping it, it serves as a reminder to you of what you >have done and where you are now so as to strengthen your commitment to >veganism. Meat eaters do at some level know that to kill animals >is wrong even if they aren't consciously aware of it simply because of the >God in them that is there however deeply buried. The last thing >the meat eater needs is more death and pain karma to deal with on top of >what they've already got. The animal did not die in vain because >it's life is being honored by you as having been the last murder >participating you did which will ever be a mark upon you for which you will >spend however many years in this life and others to atone for. In some >future life you will be murdered by that animal to balance the books. >If I were to participate in the murder your father and make a jacket out of >him and then realize that it was wrong to have done so, resolving never to >do so again, would it be better to give the jacket, which carries with it >his pain, horror and suffering, as well as the sadness and pain of your >other family members over his death and the horrible circumstances >thereof, to another or keep it? When you give such a thing to another you >also give the pain, suffering, and horror that goes with it. Those >vibrations are part of the jacket and they are felt on some level by >whomever comes into contact with it. > - > Mavreela > vegan-network > Friday, May 31, 2002 3:13 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] moral dillemma > > > > >Why then pass it on to someone else if there's a reason you don't want >it > >for yourself. > > Because the alternative is wasteful, because you can do more good by >giving > it away to charity, because if you just bury it the animal's life was >not > only taken from it, but was also done in vain. > > >...passing that bad thing to another person who will then have to deal > >with it in some way whether or not they are vegans now or not. > > Meat eater angst over leather. Well I never. >I can't think of anything other than " well said! " to say to that. It's >really nice to know there are other ethical people out there. It's >interesting reaqding your views. Love AngelaXXX > Michael > > > To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: >vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2002 Report Share Posted June 4, 2002 wanna try that again? " Angela Syrett " <ange1a70 wrote: >I > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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