Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 The Ecover debate **How do you mean? I'm very distrustful of ethical companies acting unethically, whereas I at least expect that from others so don't see it as being a problem with them.** Ecover stuff has been about since the year dot and has managed to go from a small ethical co to mainstream ethical co. That's got to be good. What really gets my goat is big companies jumping on the bandwagon, not for ethical reasons but just in pursuit of higher profit margins. Tesco's dropped loads of good products when they started pushing their own organic range. Nice big profit margin!! Bugger all the companies who had worked so hard to get their products mainstream and create the market. I never, never, never will buy a Tesco product. The company is evil. I rank them worse than McDonalds. Their " organic " meat is factory chemical pigs finished on organic feedstuffs just long enough to allow some of the less fussy certifying bodies to rubber stamp them as organic. When challenged Tesco said if customers complained they would change their policy. In other words, as long as they can get away with it they will. How can anybody trust a company like that! Back to ecover --- Living in the sticks, I don't have the option of a wide range of shops and being able to go into a supermarket ( apart from said Tesco) and get eco vegan stuff is a great step forward. OK tell me Sainsbury is just as bad. I don't agree. They have not dropped all the small company products to force us to buy their highly profitable own label stuff. They stock loads of small company stuff. At the same time I don't support supermarkets overall, I would much prefer to be able to buy from small traders. The only small ethical place I can reach on a regular basis is brown, dusty and dirty with stale beans and spices.. Everything that is loathsome about the whole ethical image. They do more harm than good. I really like Clearspring products but until Sainsbury's started stocking them they were almost impossible for me to get. As far as ethics go I have far more of a probem with V1 being run by vegan but selling dairy products. An eco who sells vegan is being true to individual beliefs and is trustworthy, a vegan who sells dairy is unethical - full stop. **It isn't a mistake though, it is an intentional environmental strategy on their part because that's what their ethical motivation is.** No they've made a misleading statement on the front of bottles. That could get them prosecuted, that's a mistake. If I don't get a good response from them I will take it to trading standards. Yes ecover's ethical motivation is eco but all other products appear to be incidentally vegan. They bother to have vegsoc logo on packs. I reckon eco considerations are almost/just as valid as vegan considerations. I cannot comprehend how any vegan can think the two don't go hand in hand. If you care, you care. >And the new bottles look good >in the kitchen! **Whatever happened to Down To Earth? They had well designed botttles too.** Never noticed them. Can't be that good. I think Tesco have them. Will look and apologise if I think they are ok. As ex typographics/pack designer I probably am over sensitive to design considerations but I genuinley belive in the craft I followed. Bad design is like a bad telephone line, you can't put your finger on what's wrong, but the communication just doesn't happen. When design and type are right, the message reaches your brain. My personal belief is that aesthetics are part of the ethical mix. You won't like Bio-D products then, but they are genuinely vegan ethical, don't spend extra on wasteful packaging, and above all they do the job they are meant for. Yeah but where do I get them? AND, yes ok, may be better but are they going to make a real difference or are they just for the cognoscenti. I reckon ecover products are acceptable, attractive and can make a real difference on a big scale. I still think their fabric conditioner is crap though :-) My big bugbear is coffee packaging. I buy fair trade organic. Why is it in small glass jars? I get through 2 or 3 a week. If anybody can tell me how to buy decent ethical instant coffee better I will be very grateful. And don't tell me it's bad for me, I've got to have one or two vices. Rosanne - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 >**How do you mean? I'm very distrustful of ethical >companies acting unethically, whereas I at least >expect that from others so don't see it as >being a problem with them.** If big bad chemical company does not believe that big bad chemicals are unethical they are consistent and ethical, even if you don't agree with their ethics. If self proclaimed ethical company targets people with a particular ethics and then violated those ethics, you have to wonder whether it means they have sold out. But as I said, Ecover are not a vegan company. >Ecover stuff has been about since the year dot and has >managed to go from a small ethical co to mainstream >ethical co. That's got to be good. What really gets my >goat is big companies jumping on the bandwagon, not >for ethical reasons but just in pursuit of higher >profit margins. Not higher profit margins, higher profit. For a big company I'm sure the margins on ethical products are not so good, but the increased market is. Ecover went from a small company to mainstream, eh? Guess they must like those higher profits they are bringing in now. >Their " organic " meat is factory chemical pigs finished >on organic feedstuffs just long enough to allow some >of the less fussy certifying bodies to rubber stamp >them as organic. When challenged Tesco said if >customers complained they would change their policy. >In other words, as long as they can get away with it >they will. How can anybody trust a company like that! Did you challenge Tesco over the selling of meat at all? And if they said they would change when most of their customers complained would you be surprised? Because they are not a vegan company and so I know where I stand with them. >Back to ecover --- Living in the sticks, I don't have >the option of a wide range of shops and being able to >go into a supermarket ( apart from said Tesco) and get >eco vegan stuff is a great step forward. I never said don't buy it. I just said that there are alternatives available and implied their increased availability came at the expense of another brand. >OK tell me Sainsbury is just as bad. I don't agree. Well give me a chance to get a word in... Sainsbury's are just as bad, you know. >They have not dropped all the small company products >to force us to buy their highly profitable own label >stuff. They stock loads of small company stuff. That's because Sainsbury's target a different area of society who are both willing and able to pay more. Tesco aim primarily at the lower end. And there is a well known rumour which seems to have some validity about the Sainsbury's family donating some of their lovely lovely profits (you know they can make quite a lot by all those lovely exotic meats) to 'gay rehabilitation' facilities. Is dropping more expensive organic products from small companies for cheaper own label ones, and so making them affordable to more, a bad thing? >The only small ethical place I can reach on a >regular basis is brown, dusty and dirty with stale >beans and spices.. If they sell what you want then I don't see the problem. >Everything that is loathsome about >the whole ethical image. They do more harm than good. Loathsome is a bit strong, but I agree they do not 'attract' the mass consumer society in the same way that, say, Tesco own label does. >As far as ethics go I have far more of a probem with >V1 being run by vegan but selling dairy products. And if they didn't they'd go out of business because they wouldn't be able to attract a lot of the omni's and even, yes, the veggie's that they do. Which is better, a vegan owned consumer attracting business that uses some cows milk, or no vegan owned consumer attracting business. The owner may be vegan but the business sells itself as being vegetarian. The business if consistent, even if the owner is not. > a vegan who sells dairy is unethical - full stop. Or pragmatically working for a greater good. >No they've made a misleading statement on the front of >bottles. That could get them prosecuted, that's a >mistake. If I don't get a good response from them I >will take it to trading standards. I thought you meant they made a mistake in using milk, not in the labelling. I don't know what that says. >Yes ecover's ethical motivation is eco but all other >products appear to be incidentally vegan. My point exactly. People need to bear that in mind, people assume such companies are vegan and so don't check labels when they should. >They bother >to have vegsoc logo on packs. I reckon eco >considerations are almost/just as valid as vegan >considerations. I cannot comprehend how any vegan can >think the two don't go hand in hand. If you care, you >care. I never said they don't go together, I said they don't NECESSARILY go together. Go and look up the mail message Graham sent to VegansUncensored or Eco Vegans where he gives some the ways in which veganism is not in the best interest of the environment. Read up on any deep ecology and you'll discover there are a lot of ecologists who are not vegans, and feel that veganism would be environmentally disastrous. That isn't my view, but I made that point to explain why Ecover make a non-vegan product. Something they spelled out very well on their product description which I posted here earlier. >Never noticed them. Can't be that good. I think Tesco >have them. Will look and apologise if I think they are >ok. " Well I went to Tesco and didn't notice any small company organic products so they can't be that good. " As far as I am aware nobody has Down to Earth products, whether they were unsuccessful in being marketed at mass consumers I do not know. > As ex typographics/pack designer I probably am >over sensitive to design considerations but I >genuinley belive in the craft I followed. Bad design >is like a bad telephone line, you can't put your >finger on what's wrong, but the communication just >doesn't happen. When design and type are right, the >message reaches your brain. Yes, you sound like you were in marketing. For me when the dishes are clean there is nothing wrong. And I don't like my washing up liquid sending messages to my brain, it's bad enough that the fabric softener just never shut's up. >Yeah but where do I get them? AND, yes ok, may be >better but are they going to make a real difference or >are they just for the cognoscenti. Look in you dusty brown shop. I know where I can get them, around the corner from me. You can also order them online from several web sites (mentioned already on this list), in both individual bottle or 5l tub forms. A 'real difference' is a somewhat vague distinction, they aren't marketed to the mass consumer society, they make a real difference to my laundry and dishes, my polishing etc. >I reckon ecover products are acceptable, attractive >and can make a real difference on a big scale. They will never make a difference in the consumer society until they a) advertise, b) sell themselves on how good they are, c) offer better value for money (same price as other brands, smaller bottles). If people were going to buy the environmental message they would be looking for dusty brown shops. Michael That was long, I wouldn't have replied if I had read it first. Still lot's of Tesco's for Fraggle's collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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