Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 >Message: 11 >Wed, 29 May 2002 11:44:08 -0400 >EBbrewpunx >republicans push to remove PETA's tax exempt status > >PETA could lose nonprofit status > >WASHINGTON -- An animal-rights group should lose its tax-exempt status >because it gave $1,500 to a group the FBI lists as " terrorist, " say two >pro-business groups on the other side of the ongoing debate on animal >treatment. Interesting ... Just heard on the news that thanks to a new " antie-turrurist " legislation in the US it now means that the FBI can spy on anyone they want however without having to prove that any crime has or is about to be committed. [ Of course, many will argue the likes of them and more did anyway. But now it is legal ]. Mighty convenient to the kinds of animal and environment pillaging corporations above. And of course, this means that the same legislation is headed our way over here to we poor cousins of the Imperial homelands. > i guess i dont see that. if its ok to wear leather til it wears out, is it ok > to eat meat that would otherwise be wasted? Interesting too ... We need an ethics committee with some vegan Law Lords to sit on this one. My guess is it start with intent. What is the nature of the intent and how honest are we able to be about it. The return action of Karma applies just as much to mental intent as physical actions and at Law, intent is more important than the actual actions committed. Any state of mind short of Buddhahood is going to fail in someway. We live in a faulted world. Interesting, from a strict Buddhist perception, it could be an offence not eat the meat although they are entirely against killing. At what point does wearing out leather or wearing it where there are no alternatives, or eating leftovers, encourage the industries behind producing them to produce more? The subtle difference between leather and fur seems to be that at least leather is a waste or byproduct of the killing whereas fur is wholly the raison d'etre of those wasteful deaths. Leather has some genuine utility for a few people and a few applications that pretty much until now there were no alternatives for and even now the alternatives are a second best. Believe me, riding motorcycles in winter in tai chi slippers is no fun ... I could have driven a car but the environmental impact is thousands of times more ... I did give up both but try and find even vegan cycle gloves! Birkenstock vegan sandals are fine for 6 months a year, I can live with them, but are vegan shoe materials really up to the same healthy breathability and environmentally friendly factor as the alternatives? I remember Graham brought up the alternative of some tree barks and felts as a genuine eco-friendly alternative. I wish the shoemakers would consider them rather than plastics. I live a pretty physical life in my shoes or boots 16 hours 7 days a week, do a fair mileage and can chew through stuff pretty quickly. Although leather *does* now fit into the economics of slaughter, especially since the price of meat is artificially cheap, no one grows cows just for shoes and cows would still die even without the industry. We have to project ourselves forward into our perfect world that may never come on the planet and imagine or invent the lifestyle we believe would be there. Is it hi-tech and artificial or nature-wise? I think the small amount of leather that really needs to be used could be done ethically and with a good conscience. [ There is one leather, Aero I think, that is made only from horse put out to pasture to die naturally, for example. Brahmin leather mentioned before. I would prefer if the horses were bumped off kindly before they got too sick and old just as I would prefer that I was too! ]. As an ex-biker and forester [ very first job ] leather worked and was essential. This is where its use - and fashion credibility - came from. It was totally apt, there were no alternatives. Sorry folks in advance for this ... But leather for the sake of vanity always appalled me. Whether it was Vogue reading fashionistas *or* punks, metalheads and the likes there was no difference. Even when I still ate meat. Where there was no excuse of ultimate utility, there is no difference in intent from between those wearing leather and those grande old dames in their mink furs. [ Actually, I find the smell of leather jackets just too pungent now. But then the smell of real bikers was pretty pungent as well. Quite different from the fresh sweat of an urban pedaller these days ]. It has to be said, that wearing it there is the danger of encouraging others to do so to for the same reason. Monkey see, monkey do. This is the difficult truth. Shoes ... I guess most of sedentary population have no excuse to have to wear leather. I am really looking confirmation that there is a sound alternative for active service. Feet need to breath. I know there is a problem for folks in conventional " professional " environments too. And having gone for jobs in tai chi slippers, Birkenstock sandals etc I know it is hard. In a real world, or even mid-America, I would have starved to death along time ago. Things are getting better but not conforming is going to hold you back. The suffering of being part of a vanguard, these young vegans don¹t know how lucky they are why I remember in the old days ... <yawn> ... > what is it with people that they need dead animal skin in > everything they buy?? A reminder of out barbarian pasts?!? Fashion and vanity all over or is it like milk whey in food products ... They have to keep working out new places to stick it to make more money rather than burying ... * NEW IMPROVED * 100% organic leather soya milk carrier with added milk whey for extra flavour all made from sustainable sources. > William Kotzwinkle's Doctor Rat? >is still in print? a kind of " Animal Farm " for the anti-vivisection >generation. >!!! I had a huge argument with one of my best friends over that book ... a >great book it was for making people aware of the issue, whereas I just >thought it was unspeakably and unnecessarily ugly - Kotzwinkle was a very adult decidely underground subversive hippy type. May be 11 was a little bit young to be reading it as it is fairly graphic but I remember the ending to have been tragically beautiful [ ... and all very pro animal ]. Recommended. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 John Allan wrote: > We have to project > ourselves forward into our perfect world that may never come on the planet > and imagine or invent the lifestyle we believe would be there. " We must be the change we wish to see " -- Gandhi As my ex had written on her noticeboard for ages. Seemed appropriate. ...ciaran -- Ciaran Anscomb, Perl/C Hacker No disclaimer? http://www.goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/ Shared joy is doubled; shared pain is halved. Thus do we refute entropy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 yup don't need intent er a search warrant or anything silly like that... J Edgar Hoover is grinning from his grave... i am waiting for my Homeland Defense Civilian Watch uniform to arrive.. fraggle >Interesting ... Just heard on the news that thanks to a new " >antie-turrurist " legislation in the US it now means that the FBI can spy on >anyone they want however without having to prove that any crime has or is >about to be committed. [ Of course, many will argue the likes of them and >more did anyway. But now it is legal ]. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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