Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 i agree, vegetarians sometimes dont realise that thier actions do cause harm to animals. but there is hope for pure vegan restaurants. in dallas there are 2 purely vegan places (cant even order cheese or butter!!), im shur theres more, but those are the only ones i know about. and theres at least 10 purely vegetarian places. and just about every place i go has something vegetarian that they can make vegan, if not a vegan option. and this is in texas-the beef capitol of the world!! so there is hope for us. and as for the karma thing, things vibrate because particles move on an atomic level. there is a mathematical equation for such waves, but the amount that they *actually* effect the rest of the world is insignificant. and besides, even if they were significant, most of them would be neutral. who are we to say if something is good or bad? bad is a relative concept. the lesser of two evils is sometimes the only good choice. i doubt that making that choice means we are condemned to be reincarnated as slugs. spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2002 Report Share Posted May 31, 2002 If I cut your throat or bludgeon you to death you would think that was bad. If I kept your carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are finer than can be measured with our present scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this life then another. Since all things are one in God whatever you do to another you also do to yourself. - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Friday, May 31, 2002 5:24 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 i agree, vegetarians sometimes dont realise that thier actions do cause harm to animals. but there is hope for pure vegan restaurants. in dallas there are 2 purely vegan places (cant even order cheese or butter!!), im shur theres more, but those are the only ones i know about. and theres at least 10 purely vegetarian places. and just about every place i go has something vegetarian that they can make vegan, if not a vegan option. and this is in texas-the beef capitol of the world!! so there is hope for us. and as for the karma thing, things vibrate because particles move on an atomic level. there is a mathematical equation for such waves, but the amount that they *actually* effect the rest of the world is insignificant. and besides, even if they were significant, most of them would be neutral. who are we to say if something is good or bad? bad is a relative concept. the lesser of two evils is sometimes the only good choice. i doubt that making that choice means we are condemned to be reincarnated as slugs. spiggy - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 if something is so small that it cant be measured, it must not be significant. ill give you that things vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT follow the laws of physics) then im not going to believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know how many people on this list believe in god, but you keep talking about it like its truth. and since no religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really think its a valid argument that all things are one in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about cutting my throat and killing someones father is giving you the best vibrations. spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to death you would think that was bad. If I kept your carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are finer than can be measured with our present scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this life then another. Since all things are one in God whatever you do to another you also do to yourself. - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 I never said it was small. I said we couldn't measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean that these things didn't exist. We only recently found that there are things smaller than atoms. I also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also just getting into what's called Quantum theory which says that things could be both a wave and a particle and that what we see depends upon what we expect to see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in religion and science. I say what I believe to be true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even if I wanted to make you think what I think and I don't feel the need to preface everything I say with a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than we can presently measure because there are things that happen that can't be explained by science as it is. I used the personal examples I did to make a point that to me animals are our family just as humans are and that to kill an animal is as personal as killing you or someone in your immediate family. To me it is evident that all things are connected. I don't have to prove it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we can determine with our five senses and we've only just begun to find that out. There is a way of knowing something directly that is beyond intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing your awareness of your inner world. - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 if something is so small that it cant be measured, it must not be significant. ill give you that things vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT follow the laws of physics) then im not going to believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know how many people on this list believe in god, but you keep talking about it like its truth. and since no religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really think its a valid argument that all things are one in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about cutting my throat and killing someones father is giving you the best vibrations. spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to death you would think that was bad. If I kept your carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are finer than can be measured with our present scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this life then another. Since all things are one in God whatever you do to another you also do to yourself. - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > we can presently measure because there are things > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > point that to me animals > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > can determine with our five senses and we've only > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > knowing something directly that is beyond > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > your awareness of your inner world. > > - > Priscilla Pelkey > vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > think its a valid argument that all things are one > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > giving you the best vibrations. > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > finer than can be measured with our present > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > life then another. Since all things are > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > to yourself. > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 I never said it was small. I said we couldn't measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean that these things didn't exist. We only recently found that there are things smaller than atoms. I also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also just getting into what's called Quantum theory which says that things could be both a wave and a particle and that what we see depends upon what we expect to see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in religion and science. I say what I believe to be true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even if I wanted to make you think what I think and I don't feel the need to preface everything I say with a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than we can presently measure because there are things that happen that can't be explained by science as it is. I used the personal examples I did to make a point that to me animals are our family just as humans are and that to kill an animal is as personal as killing you or someone in your immediate family. To me it is evident that all things are connected. I don't have to prove it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we can determine with our five senses and we've only just begun to find that out. There is a way of knowing something directly that is beyond intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing your awareness of your inner world. - Priscilla Pelkey vegan-network Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 if something is so small that it cant be measured, it must not be significant. ill give you that things vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT follow the laws of physics) then im not going to believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know how many people on this list believe in god, but you keep talking about it like its truth. and since no religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really think its a valid argument that all things are one in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about cutting my throat and killing someones father is giving you the best vibrations. spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to death you would think that was bad. If I kept your carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are finer than can be measured with our present scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this life then another. Since all things are one in God whatever you do to another you also do to yourself. - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2002 Report Share Posted June 1, 2002 I too think about plant life. There is I'm sure a kind of violence and pain associated with killing plants as well. If we could get our energy directly from the sun and water wouldn't that be great not to have to harm any living thing. It's hard to believe that our creator would have us be born only to starve to death. Many animals eat other animals to live and they do so from instinct. They don't have a choice and their biological design is geared towards this way of life. The creator decided that this is how it should be. At least when animals kill they do so honestly (they have no choice and they do their own killing for themselves and their families) and take only what they need whereas humans kill on a grand scale when they are biologically designed to be fruit eaters. Humans usually don't do their own killing. Also they have a choice. They don't need to kill animals that obviously have consciousness, obviously feel pain, and obviously suffer. With plants it is not clear that they have consciousness as we know it. It is not clear that they suffer the same way an animal does. We have to eat something or we'll die. It is instinctive even for humans that we don't let ourselves die. There must be a reason for this. Since something created us. This something would provide us with food. There also must be a reason that we have been given a choice (awareness of self as being aware). It comes down to the lesser of evils. Since we have to eat something it seems better to eat something that is as close to the sun on the food chain as we can get rather than eat a developed sentient being whose pain, suffering, and life qualities are not unlike our own. This also is a form of murder. Being human we are imperfect beings on an evolutionary path back to God and perfection. We aren't there yet. In order to live we must do violence to plants. This is not a choice. Since we have a body. The body must eat. I believe that just as animals who eat other animals are under the umbrella of the will of the creator, so too humans are under that umbrella insofar as eating plants. We have a will to live. We must eat something. We have a choice as to what we eat. It seems a better choice to eat a plant which is as close as we can get to the sun itself, than to eat a sentient being which evolved over millions of years which has the same life characteristics as ourselves and seems to suffer and feel pain as we do. If we didn't eat plants or animals there would be nothing else to eat. Maybe someday science will come up with a way of having us take our sustenance directly from the sun like plants do. But we aren't there yet. This is the best I can come up with. - Rico Sixela vegan-network Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:14 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > we can presently measure because there are things > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > point that to me animals > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > can determine with our five senses and we've only > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > knowing something directly that is beyond > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > your awareness of your inner world. > > - > Priscilla Pelkey > vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > think its a valid argument that all things are one > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > giving you the best vibrations. > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > finer than can be measured with our present > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > life then another. Since all things are > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > to yourself. > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 there's always fruitarianism..... JonJ http://home.talkcity.com/DharmaDr/peacefreed/morepeacefuldiet.html harms of all foods, and ideas on reducing the harm (yes, even vegan foods) http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/GMOharms.html (actual GMO harms, how to avoid GMOs. support the bill requireing labels for GMOs- click) - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 2:30 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > I too think about plant life. There is I'm sure a kind of violence > and pain associated with killing plants as well. If we could get our energy > directly from the sun and water wouldn't that be great not to have to harm any > living thing. It's hard to believe that our creator would have us be born only to > starve to death. Many animals eat other animals to live and they do so from instinct. > They don't have a choice and their biological design is geared towards this way of life. > The creator decided that this is how it should be. At least when animals kill they do so > honestly (they have no choice and they do their own killing for themselves and their families) > and take only what they need whereas humans kill on a grand scale when they are biologically designed > to be fruit eaters. Humans usually don't do their own killing. Also they have a choice. They don't need to kill > animals that obviously have consciousness, obviously feel pain, and obviously suffer. With plants it is not clear > that they have consciousness as we know it. It is not clear that they suffer the same way an animal does. > We have to eat something or we'll die. It is instinctive even for humans that we don't let ourselves die. > There must be a reason for this. Since something created us. This something would provide us with food. > There also must be a reason that we have been given a choice (awareness of self as being aware). > It comes down to the lesser of evils. Since we have to eat something it seems better to eat something > that is as close to the sun on the food chain as we can get rather than eat a developed sentient being > whose pain, suffering, and life qualities are not unlike our own. This also is a form of murder. Being human we > are imperfect beings on an evolutionary path back to God and perfection. We aren't there yet. > In order to live we must do violence to plants. This is not a choice. Since we have a body. The body must eat. > I believe that just as animals who eat other animals are under the umbrella of the will of the creator, so too > humans are under that umbrella insofar as eating plants. We have a will to live. We must eat something. > We have a choice as to what we eat. It seems a better choice to eat a plant which is as close as we can get > to the sun itself, than to eat a sentient being which evolved over millions of years which has the same life characteristics > as ourselves and seems to suffer and feel pain as we do. If we didn't eat plants or animals there would be nothing else to eat. > Maybe someday science will come up with a way of having us take our sustenance directly from the sun like plants do. > But we aren't there yet. This is the best I can come up with. > > - > Rico Sixela > vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:14 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are > completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the > same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the > mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, > killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as > well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. > --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > > we can presently measure because there are things > > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > > point that to me animals > > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > > can determine with our five senses and we've only > > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > > knowing something directly that is beyond > > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > > your awareness of your inner world. > > > > - > > Priscilla Pelkey > > vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > > think its a valid argument that all things are one > > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > > giving you the best vibrations. > > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > > finer than can be measured with our present > > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > > life then another. Since all things are > > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > > to yourself. > > > > > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 what's your point? - resppect vegan-network Monday, June 03, 2002 10:46 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 there's always fruitarianism..... JonJ http://home.talkcity.com/DharmaDr/peacefreed/morepeacefuldiet.html harms of all foods, and ideas on reducing the harm (yes, even vegan foods) http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/GMOharms.html (actual GMO harms, how to avoid GMOs. support the bill requireing labels for GMOs- click) - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 2:30 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > I too think about plant life. There is I'm sure a kind of violence > and pain associated with killing plants as well. If we could get our energy > directly from the sun and water wouldn't that be great not to have to harm any > living thing. It's hard to believe that our creator would have us be born only to > starve to death. Many animals eat other animals to live and they do so from instinct. > They don't have a choice and their biological design is geared towards this way of life. > The creator decided that this is how it should be. At least when animals kill they do so > honestly (they have no choice and they do their own killing for themselves and their families) > and take only what they need whereas humans kill on a grand scale when they are biologically designed > to be fruit eaters. Humans usually don't do their own killing. Also they have a choice. They don't need to kill > animals that obviously have consciousness, obviously feel pain, and obviously suffer. With plants it is not clear > that they have consciousness as we know it. It is not clear that they suffer the same way an animal does. > We have to eat something or we'll die. It is instinctive even for humans that we don't let ourselves die. > There must be a reason for this. Since something created us. This something would provide us with food. > There also must be a reason that we have been given a choice (awareness of self as being aware). > It comes down to the lesser of evils. Since we have to eat something it seems better to eat something > that is as close to the sun on the food chain as we can get rather than eat a developed sentient being > whose pain, suffering, and life qualities are not unlike our own. This also is a form of murder. Being human we > are imperfect beings on an evolutionary path back to God and perfection. We aren't there yet. > In order to live we must do violence to plants. This is not a choice. Since we have a body. The body must eat. > I believe that just as animals who eat other animals are under the umbrella of the will of the creator, so too > humans are under that umbrella insofar as eating plants. We have a will to live. We must eat something. > We have a choice as to what we eat. It seems a better choice to eat a plant which is as close as we can get > to the sun itself, than to eat a sentient being which evolved over millions of years which has the same life characteristics > as ourselves and seems to suffer and feel pain as we do. If we didn't eat plants or animals there would be nothing else to eat. > Maybe someday science will come up with a way of having us take our sustenance directly from the sun like plants do. > But we aren't there yet. This is the best I can come up with. > > - > Rico Sixela > vegan-network > Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:14 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are > completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the > same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the > mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, > killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as > well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. > --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > > we can presently measure because there are things > > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > > point that to me animals > > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > > can determine with our five senses and we've only > > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > > knowing something directly that is beyond > > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > > your awareness of your inner world. > > > > - > > Priscilla Pelkey > > vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > > think its a valid argument that all things are one > > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > > giving you the best vibrations. > > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > > finer than can be measured with our present > > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > > life then another. Since all things are > > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > > to yourself. > > > > > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 i believe the point is that fruit is suppose to be eaten..you don't kill the plants, the plant makes the fruit so it will be eaten and distribute its seeds... kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: >what's your point? > - > resppect > vegan-network > Monday, June 03, 2002 10:46 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > there's always fruitarianism..... > > JonJ > http://home.talkcity.com/DharmaDr/peacefreed/morepeacefuldiet.html harms of > all foods, and ideas on reducing the harm (yes, even vegan foods) > http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/GMOharms.html (actual GMO harms, how to > avoid GMOs. support the bill requireing labels for GMOs- click) > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 2:30 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > I too think about plant life. There is I'm sure a kind of violence > > and pain associated with killing plants as well. If we could get our > energy > > directly from the sun and water wouldn't that be great not to have to harm > any > > living thing. It's hard to believe that our creator would have us be born > only to > > starve to death. Many animals eat other animals to live and they do so > from instinct. > > They don't have a choice and their biological design is geared towards > this way of life. > > The creator decided that this is how it should be. At least when animals > kill they do so > > honestly (they have no choice and they do their own killing for themselves > and their families) > > and take only what they need whereas humans kill on a grand scale when > they are biologically designed > > to be fruit eaters. Humans usually don't do their own killing. Also they > have a choice. They don't need to kill > > animals that obviously have consciousness, obviously feel pain, and > obviously suffer. With plants it is not clear > > that they have consciousness as we know it. It is not clear that they > suffer the same way an animal does. > > We have to eat something or we'll die. It is instinctive even for humans > that we don't let ourselves die. > > There must be a reason for this. Since something created us. This > something would provide us with food. > > There also must be a reason that we have been given a choice (awareness of > self as being aware). > > It comes down to the lesser of evils. Since we have to eat something it > seems better to eat something > > that is as close to the sun on the food chain as we can get rather than > eat a developed sentient being > > whose pain, suffering, and life qualities are not unlike our own. This > also is a form of murder. Being human we > > are imperfect beings on an evolutionary path back to God and perfection. > We aren't there yet. > > In order to live we must do violence to plants. This is not a choice. > Since we have a body. The body must eat. > > I believe that just as animals who eat other animals are under the > umbrella of the will of the creator, so too > > humans are under that umbrella insofar as eating plants. We have a will to > live. We must eat something. > > We have a choice as to what we eat. It seems a better choice to eat a > plant which is as close as we can get > > to the sun itself, than to eat a sentient being which evolved over > millions of years which has the same life characteristics > > as ourselves and seems to suffer and feel pain as we do. If we didn't eat > plants or animals there would be nothing else to eat. > > Maybe someday science will come up with a way of having us take our > sustenance directly from the sun like plants do. > > But we aren't there yet. This is the best I can come up with. > > > > - > > Rico Sixela > > vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:14 AM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are > > completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the > > same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the > > mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, > > killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as > > well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. > > --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > > > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > > > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > > > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > > > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > > > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > > > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > > > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > > > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > > > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > > > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > > > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > > > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > > > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > > > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > > > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > > > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > > > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > > > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > > > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > > > we can presently measure because there are things > > > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > > > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > > > point that to me animals > > > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > > > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > > > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > > > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > > > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > > > can determine with our five senses and we've only > > > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > > > knowing something directly that is beyond > > > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > > > your awareness of your inner world. > > > > > > - > > > Priscilla Pelkey > > > vegan-network > > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > > > > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > > > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > > > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > > > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > > > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > > > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > > > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > > > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > > > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > > > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > > > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > > > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > > > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > > > think its a valid argument that all things are one > > > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > > > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > > > giving you the best vibrations. > > > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > > > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > > > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > > > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > > > finer than can be measured with our present > > > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > > > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > > > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > > > life then another. Since all things are > > > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > > > to yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2002 Report Share Posted June 3, 2002 Hi, if there's concern for plant pain, fruits are naturally shed. There is no chopping, or killing of the plant. also, farmijg of plant foods does cause fome animal deaths, from animals who are injured/killed in the plowing and harvesting, or killed by poisons in the storehouses for grain. There are big differences between different types of farming, tho. Hand picking will cause much less injuries/death (if any) as compared to huge harvesting machines. Dry crops (which support fewer animals per acre) cause less harm/death than wet crops such as rice. I've stopped eating rice in preference for dry grains, and am on a path to growing more and more of my own food. Everything I grow is organic, non-GMO and vegan of course the link here has lots of useful info http://home.talkcity.com/DharmaDr/peacefreed/morepeacefuldiet.html JonJ - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Monday, June 03, 2002 12:10 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > what's your point? > - > resppect > vegan-network > Monday, June 03, 2002 10:46 AM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > there's always fruitarianism..... > > JonJ > http://home.talkcity.com/DharmaDr/peacefreed/morepeacefuldiet.html harms of > all foods, and ideas on reducing the harm (yes, even vegan foods) > http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/GMOharms.html (actual GMO harms, how to > avoid GMOs. support the bill requireing labels for GMOs- click) > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 2:30 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > I too think about plant life. There is I'm sure a kind of violence > > and pain associated with killing plants as well. If we could get our > energy > > directly from the sun and water wouldn't that be great not to have to harm > any > > living thing. It's hard to believe that our creator would have us be born > only to > > starve to death. Many animals eat other animals to live and they do so > from instinct. > > They don't have a choice and their biological design is geared towards > this way of life. > > The creator decided that this is how it should be. At least when animals > kill they do so > > honestly (they have no choice and they do their own killing for themselves > and their families) > > and take only what they need whereas humans kill on a grand scale when > they are biologically designed > > to be fruit eaters. Humans usually don't do their own killing. Also they > have a choice. They don't need to kill > > animals that obviously have consciousness, obviously feel pain, and > obviously suffer. With plants it is not clear > > that they have consciousness as we know it. It is not clear that they > suffer the same way an animal does. > > We have to eat something or we'll die. It is instinctive even for humans > that we don't let ourselves die. > > There must be a reason for this. Since something created us. This > something would provide us with food. > > There also must be a reason that we have been given a choice (awareness of > self as being aware). > > It comes down to the lesser of evils. Since we have to eat something it > seems better to eat something > > that is as close to the sun on the food chain as we can get rather than > eat a developed sentient being > > whose pain, suffering, and life qualities are not unlike our own. This > also is a form of murder. Being human we > > are imperfect beings on an evolutionary path back to God and perfection. > We aren't there yet. > > In order to live we must do violence to plants. This is not a choice. > Since we have a body. The body must eat. > > I believe that just as animals who eat other animals are under the > umbrella of the will of the creator, so too > > humans are under that umbrella insofar as eating plants. We have a will to > live. We must eat something. > > We have a choice as to what we eat. It seems a better choice to eat a > plant which is as close as we can get > > to the sun itself, than to eat a sentient being which evolved over > millions of years which has the same life characteristics > > as ourselves and seems to suffer and feel pain as we do. If we didn't eat > plants or animals there would be nothing else to eat. > > Maybe someday science will come up with a way of having us take our > sustenance directly from the sun like plants do. > > But we aren't there yet. This is the best I can come up with. > > > > - > > Rico Sixela > > vegan-network > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 10:14 AM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > Hi...I'm Rico, and would like to say that you are > > completely correct kiwi; moreover, I grapple with the > > same analogy in reference to plant life (besides the > > mental gymnastics that purport that consuming thus, > > killing them is a renewal or symbiotic relationship)as > > well. Tell us what you thing about that vegan dilemna. > > --- kiwi2000 <kiwi2000 wrote: > > > I never said it was small. I said we couldn't > > > measure it. Once not too long ago we couldn't detect > > > radio waves or gamma radiation. That didn't mean > > > that these things didn't exist. We only recently > > > found that there are things smaller than atoms. I > > > also never said that what I'm talking about doesn't > > > follow the laws of Physics (as we currently know > > > them). Everything follows cosmic laws. We are also > > > just getting into what's called Quantum theory which > > > says that things could be both a wave and a particle > > > and that what we see depends upon what we expect to > > > see. Science knows very little about our worlds. As > > > philosophies progress it seems that the idea of a > > > unified field explains a lot of phenomena both in > > > religion and science. I say what I believe to be > > > true. You are welcomed to disagree. I couldn't even > > > if I wanted to make you think what I think and I > > > don't feel the need to preface everything I say with > > > a disclaimer. Clearly there are finer energies than > > > we can presently measure because there are things > > > that happen that can't be explained by science as it > > > is. I used the personal examples I did to make a > > > point that to me animals > > > are our family just as humans are and that to kill > > > an animal is as personal as killing you or someone > > > in your immediate family. To me it is evident > > > that all things are connected. I don't have to prove > > > it. It's obvious. There is more to existence than we > > > can determine with our five senses and we've only > > > just begun to find that out. There is a way of > > > knowing something directly that is beyond > > > intellectual knowledge. It has to do with developing > > > your awareness of your inner world. > > > > > > - > > > Priscilla Pelkey > > > vegan-network > > > Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:46 AM > > > Re: [100% veg*n ] V1 > > > > > > > > > > > > if something is so small that it cant be measured, > > > it must not be significant. ill give you that things > > > vibrate according to laws of science, but if youre > > > going to tell me they cant be measure (ie they DONT > > > follow the laws of physics) then im not going to > > > believe you. and believing that people have 'karmic > > > debts to pay' is believing that if you debt is > > > large, you come back as a lesser lifeform (ie slug) > > > so no you didnt SAY id comeb ack as a slug, but in > > > believing in karma it follows directly. i dont know > > > how many people on this list believe in god, but you > > > keep talking about it like its truth. and since no > > > religion has been proven to be 'true' i dont really > > > think its a valid argument that all things are one > > > in god. and by the way, i dont think talking about > > > cutting my throat and killing someones father is > > > giving you the best vibrations. > > > spiggyIf I cut your throat or bludgeon you to > > > death you would think that was bad. If I kept your > > > carcass for a coat, in general it wouldn't brighten > > > up anyone's day. The vibrations I'm speaking of are > > > finer than can be measured with our present > > > scientific capabilites. I didn't say you'd be > > > reincarnated as a slug. I meant that for everything > > > you do there is a karmic debt to pay. If not in this > > > life then another. Since all things are > > > one in God whatever you do to another you also do > > > to yourself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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