Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Same thing happens with stories in the US, with the media coverage. It is a shame that it's thought by some that there is no need to learn about nutrition on a vegan diet. Vegans have to watch their B12, calcium, protein, iron, among other things. I used to be ignorant and thought I was getting enough of all my nutrients without thinking of it. After reading " Vegan Nutrition " by Gill langley, I even thought I could get all my protein from rice! (I recommend against that book!! for other reasons too) After reading " Becoming Vegan " by Davis and Melina I actually learned that among people who are well-educated on nutrition and have researched it, vegans have to be cautious with some nutrients (and it wasn't just rumors or anti-vegans saying it.... they support veganism strongly as is pretty clear from their book) My guess is these vegan parents were well-intended, and that ignorance was the cause. throwing them in jail will teach them what? If they think god intended for the death, jail won't change their beliefs, and if they think B12 isn't import jail won't change that belief either. It'd be nice is vegan meant perfect health without attention, but it just isn't true. Anyone who doesn;'t already have it, get " Becoming Vegan " JonJ - " Dee Matheson " <dmatheson72 <vegan-network > Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:05 PM [100% veg*n ] murder? > Don't know about back home in the U.K. but in New Zealand at the moment, > every time I pick up a paper or switch on the T.V. there is the couple who > let their 6 month old son die. The couple in question are the Moorheads. > They are a deeply religious vegan couple. Apparently the mother took baby > Caleb out of hospital when she was told he would die if he did not get > treatment. Deborah Moorhead beleived that herbal remedies would cure him. > When he died they just thought that was gods way. He had been fed on breast > milk [alone it seems] > He was not getting vitamin B12 and died as a result. The underside of his > tongue had been worn away. Sounds like he must have suffered before his > death. > They have each been sentenced to 5 years imprisonment for manslaughter. > She is 6 months pregnant at the moment and it seems when the time is right > the new baby will be taken away from her. > I'm afraid I don't have much sympathy for them. Does anyone else? > > I have always said I'll take my beleifs as far as it is possible and > practical. I don't beleive it's neccessary for any animal to die unless it > were for my own survival and I have to say that had that baby been my own > flesh and blood I would have done anything for it's chance of survival. > > While I've been here, I'm just so reluctant to mention to anyone that I am > vegan, because of this story, people are just too quick to judge. It would > be too easy for them to think that everyone who eats a vegan diet is a total > nutcase. I guess they won't pay any attention to the many healthy vegan > families there are out there, while they stuff yet another 'healthy' > McDonalds down their childs throat. > dee > > > _______________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > > To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2002 Report Share Posted June 14, 2002 Oh Dee, what a terrible story! Hadn't heard about that, some people are very mixed up. It doesn't help when people already think we're weird. Love Shell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 resppect wrote: > > It is a shame that it's thought by some that there is no need to learn about > nutrition on a vegan diet. Vegans have to watch their B12, calcium, > protein, iron, among other things. I used to be ignorant and thought I > was getting enough of all my nutrients without thinking of it. > > After reading " Vegan Nutrition " by Gill langley, I even thought I could get > all my protein from rice! (I recommend against that book!! for other reasons > too) I am now realising just how complacent it was. What else was it wrong about? > After reading " Becoming Vegan " by Davis and Melina I actually learned > that among people who are well-educated on nutrition and have researched it, > vegans have to be cautious with some nutrients (and it wasn't just rumors or > anti-vegans saying it.... they support veganism strongly as is pretty clear > from their book) Duly added to me " to buy " list. > My guess is these vegan parents were well-intended, and that ignorance was > the cause. throwing them in jail will teach them what? If they think > god intended for the death, jail won't change their beliefs, and if they > think B12 isn't import jail won't change that belief either. Well, now we're getting into a debate about penal policy. I do believe that someone who closes their minds to evidence and facts rather than change their mind is committing a kind of selfishness. But that can't be a basis for public policy, because it would lead to something very illiberal. The point of prison is multiple. 1. Prevention. It makes it very easy to take the newborn away. Plus, they're unlikely to have more children whlist they are on the inside. 2. Rehabilitation. Whilst in jail, perhaps the state has a better chance of persuading them of the error of their ways. No, I don't find that convincing, either. 3. Exemplary. Other parents will look after their children better because they don't want to go to prison. 4. Message. It draws a line: treating your child like this is unacceptable 5. Placation. With a functioning judicial system, the mob won't be so tempted to take the law into their own hands. Anyway, that's the theory. In practice, it's an expensive way of making bad people worse, but I still won't shed any tears for these parents. > It'd be nice is vegan meant perfect health without attention, but it just > isn't true. Anyone who doesn;'t already have it, get " Becoming Vegan " > > JonJ > We're not doing this because it's natural, or better for us. We're doing this because it's *right*. -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2002 Report Share Posted June 15, 2002 - " Ian McDonald " <ian <vegan-network > Friday, June 14, 2002 9:18 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] murder? > > > resppect wrote: > > > > It is a shame that it's thought by some that there is no need to learn about > > nutrition on a vegan diet. Vegans have to watch their B12, calcium, > > protein, iron, among other things. I used to be ignorant and thought I > > was getting enough of all my nutrients without thinking of it. > > > > After reading " Vegan Nutrition " by Gill langley, I even thought I could get > > all my protein from rice! (I recommend against that book!! for other reasons > > too) > > I am now realising just how complacent it was. What else was it wrong > about? The suggestion that rice could serve as one's sole source of protein and be adequate, and the gross under-statement of incidence of B12 deficiency in scientific literature, are 2 that I know of without going back to look for others. The book is scientifically-written, for sure, with descriptive measurements and citations, but overall I got the idea the book was trying to force the hypothesis that people eating plant foods could get all their nutrition without needing any education or effort.. It helped me to admire and see the value of Becoming Vegan, for how the authors would highlight nutrients that vegans actually need to give special attention to, and even saying we should take B12 supplements- they seemed to more be relateing exactly what research had shpowed, and not trying to force some preferable conclusion. > > > After reading " Becoming Vegan " by Davis and Melina I actually learned > > that among people who are well-educated on nutrition and have researched it, > > vegans have to be cautious with some nutrients (and it wasn't just rumors or > > anti-vegans saying it.... they support veganism strongly as is pretty clear > > from their book) > > Duly added to me " to buy " list. Excellent, if I was wealthy, I'd supply every major veg*an organization with them. > > > My guess is these vegan parents were well-intended, and that ignorance was > > the cause. throwing them in jail will teach them what? If they think > > god intended for the death, jail won't change their beliefs, and if they > > think B12 isn't import jail won't change that belief either. > > Well, now we're getting into a debate about penal policy. I do believe > that someone who closes their minds to evidence and facts rather than > change their mind is committing a kind of selfishness. But that can't be > a basis for public policy, because it would lead to something very > illiberal. > > The point of prison is multiple. > 1. Prevention. It makes it very easy to take the newborn away. Plus, > they're unlikely to have more children whlist they are on the inside. > 2. Rehabilitation. Whilst in jail, perhaps the state has a better chance > of persuading them of the error of their ways. No, I don't find that > convincing, either. > 3. Exemplary. Other parents will look after their children better > because they don't want to go to prison. > 4. Message. It draws a line: treating your child like this is > unacceptable > 5. Placation. With a functioning judicial system, the mob won't be so > tempted to take the law into their own hands. > > Anyway, that's the theory. In practice, it's an expensive way of making > bad people worse, but I still won't shed any tears for these parents. Through-out my psych education, the effects of prison was one of my areas of interest, and the idea of it seemed more harmful as I learned more. Prison is excellent for keeping 'dangerous' individuals away from the rest of society. Prison is horrible for rehabilitation; a lot of the inmates will be mingling with other inmates who are more violent and severe than themselves. There are some programs, for instance with drinking-and-driving offenders... where parents who's children have been killed by drunk drivers go in to talk about their loss. This allows the offenders to actually see painful potential consequences of their drunk-driving, and makes it much more real than the vague idea that they can hurt someone by driving drunk. I tend to think, unless there is brain damage that makes learning/change impossible, then it is possible for people to change. Punishment is more like a stick that people want to avoid being hit by, and many people will only temporarily change to avoid the stick... when they think the stick is watching. Rehabilitation is a much better spending of tax-payer money than repeatedly catching the same people and throwing them back in jail for a while.... until they do something extreme enough to get a life sentence or death sentence. In a very loose anaology, it's similar to a person with a poor home where he can't study (yelling, etc), has emotional problems because of his home-life (which is also his entire upbringing during which he molded his early view of the world and himself), and is getting poor grades. And he is punished for his bad grades, as if that is going to have any effect on the reasons he is getting poor grades. The poor grades are the result of other, more fundamental, problems.... which need to be addressed if the person is going to be able to grow ina positive way. People don't rob, murder, or deny their children nutrition in isolation..... they are all done as results of other more fundamental causes. veryone is responsible for their actions, but the question is whether we punish them for their problems and ignorance, or help them. > > > It'd be nice is vegan meant perfect health without attention, but it just > > isn't true. Anyone who doesn;'t already have it, get " Becoming Vegan " > > > > JonJ > > > > We're not doing this because it's natural, or better for us. We're doing > this because it's *right*. Yes, I think of it as it's better for the entirety of beings. Obviously 60 billion people and animals are much more important than just thinking of only myself, and sure be wise to make my decisiosn while considering everyone else Ian McDonald > > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ > > > > To to the Digest Mode [ recommended ], send an email to: vegan-network-digest > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 16, 2002 Report Share Posted June 16, 2002 resppect wrote: > > People don't rob, murder, or deny their children nutrition in > isolation..... they are all done as results of other more fundamental > causes. veryone is responsible for their actions, but the question is > whether we punish them for their problems and ignorance, or help them. IMHO, prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse, so I agree with the bulk of what you're saying. And rehab is usually more expensive. But clauses beginning " The question is ... " are one of my pet hates. There is no 'the question', there are only 'some questions', and someone referring to 'the question' is usually trying to elevate the question they think is most important. Besides, people aren't (theoretically) being punished for their problems. They are being punished for their decisions. -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2002 Report Share Posted June 17, 2002 - " Ian McDonald " <ian <vegan-network > Sunday, June 16, 2002 6:32 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] murder? > > > resppect wrote: > > > > People don't rob, murder, or deny their children nutrition in > > isolation..... they are all done as results of other more fundamental > > causes. veryone is responsible for their actions, but the question is > > whether we punish them for their problems and ignorance, or help them. > > IMHO, prison is an expensive way of making bad people worse, so I agree > with the bulk of what you're saying. And rehab is usually more > expensive. > > But clauses beginning " The question is ... " are one of my pet hates. > There is no 'the question', there are only 'some questions', and someone > referring to 'the question' is usually trying to elevate the question > they think is most important. > > Besides, people aren't (theoretically) being punished for their > problems. They are being punished for their decisions. > -- > Ian McDonald Sorry if I typed so that it looked like my comments were opposed to yours; I was just speaking my opinions even though we seemed, and seem, to mostly agree. I have some strong views on punishment and rehabilitation that I formed as a result of my studies and jump at any chance to share them (ie. risk boring people with them I agree, there are many aspects of a situation and no one aspect that things can be boiled down to (at least not one that is very vague and difficult or impossible to quantify or test). I see I need to further reduce my use of cliche's The punishment is for decisions and actions, but the actions and decisions can be, and often in the case of crimes, are the results of various more fundamental causes. This can easily be misunderstood as not holding the person responsible or viewing them as a baby, but they are both making an assumption that is one more step removed. If a person gets their driving license without having all the neccessary driving skills, then they could likely get into accidents.... where they will be punished in terms of fines. But these fines do not address the fundamental reason for the accidents, nor will they directly reduce the likelihood of future accidents. (and all these analogies at the risk of being simplistic). Similarly, a person can live unhealthfully, and repeatedly get sick. It's best, imo, to not view the sickness as the problem, but view the sickness as the result of a problem, which would be unhealthy diet, etc. Prison as a deterrant mostly operates as if by punishing people for their actions (or the treat of punishment) , the people will be able to use self control to reflect, and figure out why they acted as they did, and then resolve the causes. The chances of them doing this would be much greater if they had help.... held as responsible for their actions, and also helped to improve their actions. Of course there are some with damage to their brain that makes significant change unlikely/impossible, or those that are unlikely to change for other reasons. JonJ > > > http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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