Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Brad, I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I didn't hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I wasn't a bad person for not having heard of it. And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that I wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find alternatives, feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. Did you have any of these issues? respectfully Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; <HarmNone >; <michele; <Scathing_Vegans >; <stopanimalcruelty; <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; <.Lesley; <dropscone; <tofujojo Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what you've done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of other sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is precious and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat eaters). You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been infinitely more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have discovered. How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent beings and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know what is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the difference between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything no matter how glaringly hypocri! > tical. > Brad > - > Trusty, Hannah > EBbrewpunx ; > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > Hannah > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Jon, I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was and just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat eater and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. Brad - resppect vegan-network Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad Brad, I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I didn't hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I wasn't a bad person for not having heard of it. And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that I wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find alternatives, feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. Did you have any of these issues? respectfully Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; <HarmNone >; <michele; <Scathing_Vegans >; <stopanimalcruelty; <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; <.Lesley; <dropscone; <tofujojo Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what you've done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of other sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is precious and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat eaters). You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been infinitely more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have discovered. How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent beings and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know what is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the difference between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything no matter how glaringly hypocri! > tical. > Brad > - > Trusty, Hannah > EBbrewpunx ; > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > Hannah > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Brad, If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then anyone using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which is usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste Okay, so the majority of people cause harm, either knowingly or unknowingly. If we use the above *arbitrary* definition of " bad " (there is no specific measurement or specific description of " bad " ; (what is 'defined' as " bad " is mostly determined either by accepting culture's use of the word, or up to our emotions, or how something fits in with an arbitrary system (like laws) Anyway, if we use that definition, then we are all " bad " ..... and hopefully the next realiztion is that way of looking at things doesn't help anything. Pointing fingers and focusing on other's most negative points *will not* do anything to improve things. On the contrary it *will* generally increase people's defensiveness, raise a focus on guilt instead of on improving things, reduce the support which people need when faced with emotionally difficult decisions. If we are focused on improving things, then the best to do is to make info available, and caringly support people. Angry words might seem valid to us, but the effects of those words are harmful to what our goals are. We can be angry at the harms, and angry at the cause of the harm, but speaking the anger will not help; it will be more harmful than helpful. This is clear as day to me, maybe since I've gotten past the anger phase. Doesn't it makes sense that things will improve more if we care and support people, instead of throwing anger and resentment at them? ? Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:16 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > Jon, > I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder > and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was and just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel > anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat eater and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. > > Brad > - > resppect > vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > Brad, > > I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I didn't > hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I wasn't > a bad person for not having heard of it. > And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that I > wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find alternatives, > feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all > society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to > convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. > > Did you have any of these issues? > > respectfully > Jon > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; > <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; > <HarmNone >; <michele; > <Scathing_Vegans >; <stopanimalcruelty; > <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; > <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; > <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; > <.Lesley; <dropscone; <tofujojo > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM > [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > > > > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what you've > done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of other > sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is precious > and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat eaters). > You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a > vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been infinitely > more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have discovered. > How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your > outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent beings > and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know what > is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the difference > between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the > murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human > nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything no > matter how glaringly hypocri! > > tical. > > Brad > > - > > Trusty, Hannah > > EBbrewpunx ; > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between > us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he > seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he > never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share > your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out > on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist > and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2002 Report Share Posted July 9, 2002 Jon, as I said I'm not saying I'm right. I can't help how I feel. I can't understand why people don't care if they are made to think about it when maybe they never have before. I guess you're right. It makes sense but part of me is still angry that while we're being caring and patient, the slaughter goes on and on. I wish I knew how to get to where you are. Brad - resppect vegan-network Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:28 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad Brad, If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then anyone using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which is usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste Okay, so the majority of people cause harm, either knowingly or unknowingly. If we use the above *arbitrary* definition of " bad " (there is no specific measurement or specific description of " bad " ; (what is 'defined' as " bad " is mostly determined either by accepting culture's use of the word, or up to our emotions, or how something fits in with an arbitrary system (like laws) Anyway, if we use that definition, then we are all " bad " ..... and hopefully the next realiztion is that way of looking at things doesn't help anything. Pointing fingers and focusing on other's most negative points *will not* do anything to improve things. On the contrary it *will* generally increase people's defensiveness, raise a focus on guilt instead of on improving things, reduce the support which people need when faced with emotionally difficult decisions. If we are focused on improving things, then the best to do is to make info available, and caringly support people. Angry words might seem valid to us, but the effects of those words are harmful to what our goals are. We can be angry at the harms, and angry at the cause of the harm, but speaking the anger will not help; it will be more harmful than helpful. This is clear as day to me, maybe since I've gotten past the anger phase. Doesn't it makes sense that things will improve more if we care and support people, instead of throwing anger and resentment at them? ? Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:16 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > Jon, > I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder > and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was and just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel > anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat eater and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. > > Brad > - > resppect > vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > Brad, > > I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I didn't > hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I wasn't > a bad person for not having heard of it. > And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that I > wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find alternatives, > feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all > society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to > convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. > > Did you have any of these issues? > > respectfully > Jon > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; > <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; > <HarmNone >; <michele; > <Scathing_Vegans >; <stopanimalcruelty; > <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; > <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; > <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; > <.Lesley; <dropscone; <tofujojo > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM > [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > > > > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what you've > done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of other > sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is precious > and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat eaters). > You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a > vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been infinitely > more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have discovered. > How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your > outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent beings > and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know what > is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the difference > between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the > murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human > nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything no > matter how glaringly hypocri! > > tical. > > Brad > > - > > Trusty, Hannah > > EBbrewpunx ; > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great between > us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he > seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if he > never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share > your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost out > on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's Baptist > and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 There is direct killing and indirect (accidental killing ) Avoiding the killing of animals to eat ,is easy . resppect [resppect] 09 July 2002 21:29 vegan-network Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad Brad, If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then anyone using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which is usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste I --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 I think you are right Brad . The longer I am vegan for ,the more angry I get . Its so much easier now than 35 years ago . Ice-cream now exists !!!People get told frequently on the TY/radio etc. When I changed I just worked it out for myself--prompted by the deliberate torture and death of the dog Laika (space ) Most people don't want to think about it ---too selfish kiwi2000 [kiwi2000] 09 July 2002 21:44 vegan-network Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad Jon, as I said I'm not saying I'm right. I can't help how I feel. I can't understand why people don't care if they are made to think about it when maybe they never have before. I guess you're right. It makes sense but part of me is still angry that while we're being caring and patient, the slaughter goes on and on. I wish I knew how to get to where you are. Brad --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Brad, by the way, a pleasure to meet you, you obviously care a lot and sincerely. I still burn myself when I think of Bush/Cheney and what they have done environmentally. on the personal, non-financially-conflicted level, though, things are much different. It's mostly a matter of innocent people being victims by being raised into a culture and a family that introduces meat,eggs,and milk as food. Depending on when that person is introduced to the idea of understanding where they come from and what it requires it can be very ingrained in their habits, traditions, enjoyment. These people, which included us too, were brought up into one crappy situation, and we are left by ourselves to make large changes to our lifestyles. I am lucky as hell that I didn't get 1 single insult or anything before I went vegan. And the few veg*ans I knew of only supported me. My first vegan I saw made an impression on me that vegans could interact friendly just like anyone else. I personally, can be confused and very un-natural when with other non-vegans (trying to figure out if I should be a silent role-model, try to change them, try to force them to change, show them pictures against their will, etc) Just take care, and remember that every person has the potential to change, and the more respectful and caring we are, the more chance there is that they'll be openminded to think about things. Remember that we can't force anyone to change, but that the change has to come from within them. And for them to want to change they have to know reasons why, and to be able to know reasons why, they need to feel free to learn new info and not be challenged or attcked, but be encouraged to think about it. Knowing that and caring is all you need to get where I am and beyond and at the risk of sounding silly, an intro to buddhism will be more useful than you'd imagine in handling these emotions are you involved in any activist groups? Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:43 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > Jon, > as I said I'm not saying I'm right. I can't help how I feel. I can't understand why people don't care > if they are made to think about it when maybe they never have before. I guess you're right. It makes sense but part of me is still angry that while we're being caring and patient, the slaughter goes on and on. I wish I knew how to get to where you are. > Brad > - > resppect > vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:28 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > Brad, > > If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then anyone > using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require > buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which is > usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste > > Okay, so the majority of people cause harm, either knowingly or unknowingly. > If we use the above *arbitrary* definition of " bad " (there is no specific > measurement or specific description of " bad " ; (what is 'defined' as " bad " is > mostly determined either by accepting culture's use of the word, or up to > our emotions, or how something fits in with an arbitrary system (like laws) > Anyway, if we use that definition, then we are all " bad " ..... > > and hopefully the next realiztion is that way of looking at things doesn't > help anything. Pointing fingers and focusing on other's most negative > points *will not* do anything to improve things. On the contrary it *will* > generally increase people's defensiveness, raise a focus on guilt instead of > on improving things, reduce the support which people need when faced with > emotionally difficult decisions. > > If we are focused on improving things, then the best to do is to make info > available, and caringly support people. Angry words might seem valid to > us, but the effects of those words are harmful to what our goals are. We > can be angry at the harms, and angry at the cause of the harm, but speaking > the anger will not help; it will be more harmful than helpful. > > This is clear as day to me, maybe since I've gotten past the anger phase. > Doesn't it makes sense that things will improve more if we care and support > people, instead of throwing anger and resentment at them? > > > ? > > Jon > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:16 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > Jon, > > I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad > person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder > > and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I > would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was and > just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with > these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not > sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate > approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel > > anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat eater > and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. > > > > > Brad > > - > > resppect > > vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > > > Brad, > > > > I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I > didn't > > hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I > wasn't > > a bad person for not having heard of it. > > And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that > I > > wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find > alternatives, > > feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all > > society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to > > convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. > > > > Did you have any of these issues? > > > > respectfully > > Jon > > > > > > - > > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > > <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; > > <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; > > <HarmNone >; <michele; > > <Scathing_Vegans >; > <stopanimalcruelty; > > <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; > > <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; > > <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; > > <.Lesley; <dropscone; > <tofujojo > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM > > [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > > > > > > > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what > you've > > done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > > > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of > other > > sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is > precious > > and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat > eaters). > > You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a > > vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been > infinitely > > more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have > discovered. > > How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your > > outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent > beings > > and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know > what > > is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the > difference > > between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the > > murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human > > nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything > no > > matter how glaringly hypocri! > > > tical. > > > > Brad > > > - > > > Trusty, Hannah > > > EBbrewpunx ; > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great > between > > us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he > > seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if > he > > never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share > > your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost > out > > on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's > Baptist > > and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 Jon, Nice to meet you. I know in my head that you're right. My heart is trying to catch up. I belong to Earthsave. I wasn't as lucky as you and was put down by my friends and girlfriend at the time when I started to become a veg person. I don't go around being mean to people who are meat eaters. I understand about compassion. I just need more practice. I really think that if individuals had to kill that cow, pig or chicken themselves for their food and look the animals in the eyes and hear their screams that many people couldn't do it. It's too easy to let others do the killing for them. Brad - resppect vegan-network Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:38 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad Brad, by the way, a pleasure to meet you, you obviously care a lot and sincerely. I still burn myself when I think of Bush/Cheney and what they have done environmentally. on the personal, non-financially-conflicted level, though, things are much different. It's mostly a matter of innocent people being victims by being raised into a culture and a family that introduces meat,eggs,and milk as food. Depending on when that person is introduced to the idea of understanding where they come from and what it requires it can be very ingrained in their habits, traditions, enjoyment. These people, which included us too, were brought up into one crappy situation, and we are left by ourselves to make large changes to our lifestyles. I am lucky as hell that I didn't get 1 single insult or anything before I went vegan. And the few veg*ans I knew of only supported me. My first vegan I saw made an impression on me that vegans could interact friendly just like anyone else. I personally, can be confused and very un-natural when with other non-vegans (trying to figure out if I should be a silent role-model, try to change them, try to force them to change, show them pictures against their will, etc) Just take care, and remember that every person has the potential to change, and the more respectful and caring we are, the more chance there is that they'll be openminded to think about things. Remember that we can't force anyone to change, but that the change has to come from within them. And for them to want to change they have to know reasons why, and to be able to know reasons why, they need to feel free to learn new info and not be challenged or attcked, but be encouraged to think about it. Knowing that and caring is all you need to get where I am and beyond and at the risk of sounding silly, an intro to buddhism will be more useful than you'd imagine in handling these emotions are you involved in any activist groups? Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:43 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > Jon, > as I said I'm not saying I'm right. I can't help how I feel. I can't understand why people don't care > if they are made to think about it when maybe they never have before. I guess you're right. It makes sense but part of me is still angry that while we're being caring and patient, the slaughter goes on and on. I wish I knew how to get to where you are. > Brad > - > resppect > vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:28 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > Brad, > > If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then anyone > using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require > buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which is > usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste > > Okay, so the majority of people cause harm, either knowingly or unknowingly. > If we use the above *arbitrary* definition of " bad " (there is no specific > measurement or specific description of " bad " ; (what is 'defined' as " bad " is > mostly determined either by accepting culture's use of the word, or up to > our emotions, or how something fits in with an arbitrary system (like laws) > Anyway, if we use that definition, then we are all " bad " ..... > > and hopefully the next realiztion is that way of looking at things doesn't > help anything. Pointing fingers and focusing on other's most negative > points *will not* do anything to improve things. On the contrary it *will* > generally increase people's defensiveness, raise a focus on guilt instead of > on improving things, reduce the support which people need when faced with > emotionally difficult decisions. > > If we are focused on improving things, then the best to do is to make info > available, and caringly support people. Angry words might seem valid to > us, but the effects of those words are harmful to what our goals are. We > can be angry at the harms, and angry at the cause of the harm, but speaking > the anger will not help; it will be more harmful than helpful. > > This is clear as day to me, maybe since I've gotten past the anger phase. > Doesn't it makes sense that things will improve more if we care and support > people, instead of throwing anger and resentment at them? > > > ? > > Jon > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:16 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > Jon, > > I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad > person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder > > and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I > would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was and > just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with > these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not > sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate > approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel > > anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat eater > and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. > > > > > Brad > > - > > resppect > > vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > > > Brad, > > > > I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where I > didn't > > hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that I > wasn't > > a bad person for not having heard of it. > > And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue that > I > > wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find > alternatives, > > feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost all > > society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try to > > convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. > > > > Did you have any of these issues? > > > > respectfully > > Jon > > > > > > - > > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > > <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; > > <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; > > <HarmNone >; <michele; > > <Scathing_Vegans >; > <stopanimalcruelty; > > <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; > > <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; ; > > <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; > > <.Lesley; <dropscone; > <tofujojo > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM > > [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > > > > > > > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what > you've > > done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > > > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of > other > > sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is > precious > > and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat > eaters). > > You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a > > vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been > infinitely > > more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have > discovered. > > How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share your > > outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent > beings > > and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't know > what > > is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the > difference > > between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop the > > murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which human > > nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and everything > no > > matter how glaringly hypocri! > > > tical. > > > > Brad > > > - > > > Trusty, Hannah > > > EBbrewpunx ; > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great > between > > us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals and he > > seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still if > he > > never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to share > > your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have lost > out > > on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's > Baptist > > and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2002 Report Share Posted July 10, 2002 ....Well I thank you then, Brad. Earthsave was my introduction to learning about the resource use and pollution of animal foods; before them I only thought there was an ethical aspect for veganism. I agree with you so much on that idea of other seeing what happens. All it took for me was the knowledge that animals were killed. If others saw pictures, or to the most extreme, visited a slaughterhouse, .... and educated on alternatives and educated on how be assured of adequate nutrition, I think a lot of people would make changes. For many people 'seeing is believing' and things we don't see can seem somehow abstract and not 100% real; of they might seem real, but not really connected to oneself enough to feel responsibility. Abstract thigns can be easy to explain away in order to protect our emotional self. But pictures make it reality. I'm devoting my life to increase the quality of life for those who have the least quality of life, hopefully through philanthropy (financinge earthsave, veganoutreach, and other groups) Until I reach that goal, I spend most my time understanding things better, and spreading information. I'm big on just making info available, becasue people will, and should, make their own decisions from credible info, imo Here's all my sites so far, some aren't finished completely, and I keep adding info as I find it http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/FarmAnimalLives.html http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/MorePeacefulDiet.html http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/PlantFoodNutrition.html http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/Veg_anImprovements.html http://www.geocities.com/holist2002/GMOharms.html IMO, VeganOutreach are the Dalia Lama's of the vegan advocates. These guys helped me through a lot of tough emotions and issues Here's there site for advocacy http://veganoutreach.org/advocacy/ They've got some really wise ideas such as focusing efforts on the people who are most likely to be interested- which they identify as college students you have any good urls? Jon - " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 <vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:58 PM Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > Jon, > Nice to meet you. > I know in my head that you're right. My heart is trying to catch up. I belong to Earthsave. I wasn't as lucky as you > and was put down by my friends and girlfriend at the time when I started to become a veg person. I don't go around being mean > to people who are meat eaters. I understand about compassion. I just need more practice. I really think that if individuals > had to kill that cow, pig or chicken themselves for their food and look the animals in the eyes and hear their screams that many people > couldn't do it. It's too easy to let others do the killing for them. > Brad > - > resppect > vegan-network > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:38 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > Brad, > by the way, a pleasure to meet you, you obviously care a lot and sincerely. > > I still burn myself when I think of Bush/Cheney and what they have done > environmentally. > > on the personal, non-financially-conflicted level, though, things are much > different. It's mostly a matter of innocent people being victims by being > raised into a culture and a family that introduces meat,eggs,and milk as > food. Depending on when that person is introduced to the idea of > understanding where they come from and what it requires it can be very > ingrained in their habits, traditions, enjoyment. These people, which > included us too, were brought up into one crappy situation, and we are left > by ourselves to make large changes to our lifestyles. > I am lucky as hell that I didn't get 1 single insult or anything before I > went vegan. And the few veg*ans I knew of only supported me. My first > vegan I saw made an impression on me that vegans could interact friendly > just like anyone else. I personally, can be confused and very un-natural > when with other non-vegans (trying to figure out if I should be a silent > role-model, try to change them, try to force them to change, show them > pictures against their will, etc) > > Just take care, and remember that every person has the potential to change, > and the more respectful and caring we are, the more chance there is that > they'll be openminded to think about things. Remember that we can't force > anyone to change, but that the change has to come from within them. And for > them to want to change they have to know reasons why, and to be able to know > reasons why, they need to feel free to learn new info and not be challenged > or attcked, but be encouraged to think about it. > Knowing that and caring is all you need to get where I am and beyond > > and at the risk of sounding silly, an intro to buddhism will be more useful > than you'd imagine in handling these emotions > > are you involved in any activist groups? > > Jon > > > - > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > <vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:43 PM > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > Jon, > > as I said I'm not saying I'm right. I can't help how I feel. I > can't understand why people don't care > > if they are made to think about it when maybe they never have before. I > guess you're right. It makes sense but part of me is still angry that while > we're being caring and patient, the slaughter goes on and on. I wish I knew > how to get to where you are. > > Brad > > - > > resppect > > vegan-network > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:28 PM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > > > Brad, > > > > If the definition of " bad " is anyone who causes harm to animals, then > anyone > > using a computer, or any manufactured product is bad. They require > > buildings, which have cleared trees, materials- same thing, energy which > is > > usually oil -oil spills, air pollution. There's waste > > > > Okay, so the majority of people cause harm, either knowingly or > unknowingly. > > If we use the above *arbitrary* definition of " bad " (there is no > specific > > measurement or specific description of " bad " ; (what is 'defined' as > " bad " is > > mostly determined either by accepting culture's use of the word, or up > to > > our emotions, or how something fits in with an arbitrary system (like > laws) > > Anyway, if we use that definition, then we are all " bad " ..... > > > > and hopefully the next realiztion is that way of looking at things > doesn't > > help anything. Pointing fingers and focusing on other's most negative > > points *will not* do anything to improve things. On the contrary it > *will* > > generally increase people's defensiveness, raise a focus on guilt > instead of > > on improving things, reduce the support which people need when faced > with > > emotionally difficult decisions. > > > > If we are focused on improving things, then the best to do is to make > info > > available, and caringly support people. Angry words might seem valid > to > > us, but the effects of those words are harmful to what our goals are. > We > > can be angry at the harms, and angry at the cause of the harm, but > speaking > > the anger will not help; it will be more harmful than helpful. > > > > This is clear as day to me, maybe since I've gotten past the anger > phase. > > Doesn't it makes sense that things will improve more if we care and > support > > people, instead of throwing anger and resentment at them? > > > > > > ? > > > > Jon > > > > > > - > > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > > <vegan-network > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 4:16 PM > > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > > > > Jon, > > > I have all of these issues. When you say you weren't a bad > > person, I'm not sure what that means. If one participates in the murder > > > and torture of innocent life, without even bothering think about it, I > > would argue that that person is in some ways a bad person just as I was > and > > just as you were. A savage is a good term for it. That we struggle with > > these issues and try to not harm other beings says a lot for us. I'm not > > sure how to convert people. I know John Robbins has the compassionate > > approach and maybe that's the way to be. I'm not there yet. I still feel > > > anger toward society and meat eaters. I can't respect or love a meat > eater > > and I stand by what I said to Hannah about her marriage to one. > > > > > > > > Brad > > > - > > > resppect > > > vegan-network > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 3:05 PM > > > Re: [100% veg*n ] for Brad > > > > > > > > > Brad, > > > > > > I can remember back to my days of growing up eating anything, where > I > > didn't > > > hear the idea of where meat comes from, and I'd argue strongly that > I > > wasn't > > > a bad person for not having heard of it. > > > And when it took me many months to remove dairy and eggs, I'd argue > that > > I > > > wasn't a bad person as I struggled through the trying to find > > alternatives, > > > feeling more separate from my family, moving from accepting almost > all > > > society to disliking an entire industry, wondering if I should try > to > > > convert people, and what is the best way to treat people. > > > > > > Did you have any of these issues? > > > > > > respectfully > > > Jon > > > > > > > > > - > > > " kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000 > > > <bevanmetro; <darquehaven >; > > > <ESI-List; <eco_vegans >; > > > <HarmNone >; <michele; > > > <Scathing_Vegans >; > > <stopanimalcruelty; > > > <TFHB >; <vegan-network >; > > > <vc27; <EBbrewpunx; > ; > > > <veganhumpers >; <veganmania >; > > > <.Lesley; <dropscone; > > <tofujojo > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 2:16 PM > > > [100% veg*n ] I married a meat eater > > > > > > > > > > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what > > you've > > > done, for purposes of convenience, is to completely deny > > > > that your mate has no concern whatever for the lives and rights of > > other > > > sentient beings and no appreciation for the fact that all life is > > precious > > > and connected and is that he is basically a savage (as are all meat > > eaters). > > > You've completely compromised your values because to try and find a > > > vegetarian, or even more difficult, a vegan mate would have been > > infinitely > > > more difficult as those of us who choose not to compromise have > > discovered. > > > How could you love a person, you being a vegan, who does not share > your > > > outrage at the murder and torture of billions of beautiful, innocent > > beings > > > and in fact participates in it? If this isn't a sellout, I don't > know > > what > > > is. Sorry but it isn't just a matter of bing different. It's the > > difference > > > between being a murderer and being a person who is trying to stop > the > > > murderer from killing. I always find amazing the degree to which > human > > > nature can allow people to rationalize and deny anything and > everything > > no > > > matter how glaringly hypocri! > > > > tical. > > > > > > Brad > > > > - > > > > Trusty, Hannah > > > > EBbrewpunx ; > > > > Tuesday, July 09, 2002 11:53 AM > > > > RE: Digest Number 395 > > > > > > > > > > > > I just have to say.....I married a meat-eater and things are great > > between > > > us (granted I don't cook meat and he seems to like my vegan meals > and he > > > seems to be thinking about becoming a vegetarian-ovo,lacto). Still > if > > he > > > never changes, I love him just the same. I understand the want to > share > > > your life with another vegan, but from my experience I would have > lost > > out > > > on a lot if I had refused to see a meat eater. But then again, he's > > Baptist > > > and I'm Wiccan so I guess we just like being different. > > > > > > > > Hannah > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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