[100% veg*n ] Confessions of a teenage meat eater

[Guest guest]

This was a reply I sent to some people who felt it was ok to marry meat eaters,

thinking that they'll change down the line:

 

Jane Doe,

you talk about being a vegan as if it's a very casual thing for people.

For most people it's far from casual. It's not just a matter of him liking

football and her liking soap operas. It's very much more encompassing than that.

It's about murdering innocent animals for food when it is totally

unnecessary. I would find it impossible to love someone who didn't understand

this. Which begs the question, what then is love. Is it just attraction?

Shouldn't it have something to do with strongly held beliefs and shared values?

Would you love a Nazi hoping that one day he'll

stop exterminating Jews?

Brad

So what then is there to love in such a person and what then is love? Is it

just the physical relationship? Should we really love the person

who is so insensitive that they can't see participating in murder is wrong?

What's the difference between the meat eater and the Nazi?

Between animals and Jews? Don't they both have a right to live? Are not both

murderers equally guilty? How long do you give Mr. Nazi to change before you

give up on him?

 

 

 

-

John Allan

100% Veg*n

Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:53 PM

[100% veg*n ] Re: Confessions of a teenage meat eater

 

 

Sorry if it sounds trite but ain't the general idea to love the sinner but

not the sin?

 

> I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what you've

> done, for purposes of convenience, is to etc etc etc sell out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Brad,

 

I cannot resolve this topic completely, and it'll be one very big

enlightenment to get anywhere near resolving it.

I must admit I think I have fear about judging people in such harsh ways

as nazi's (however, I have some pretty strong feelings on Bush/Cheney). So

maybe I have a reluctance to view people I personally know, or who are

everyday people (meaning they aren't getting $ for their actions) in such

negative terms.

It almost certainly seems to be very harmful, to both oneself's

thoughts/feelings, and to the consequences of sharing to others those views,

to judge others in such negative terms.

 

I think part of my reluctance might come from all I've learned of relating

with other people; reciprocity, and that compliments help with improvements,

and harsh criticism create dislike self-defensiveness and counter-attacks.

Part of it is also the general feeling and view that harsh critiques cause

harm to the person.

 

Also there are differences between a Nazi and a meat-eater. Actually even

we cause deaths if we use products produced by machines generally (althought

the deaths may not be as direct as needing to kill animals for meat, but the

accidental and unneccessary deaths are still deaths)

One's intent seems very important (I honestly know I am prone to rambling

and will try my hardest to stay on topic (blessed with ADD)) and it'd seem

that intent will determine a person's actions. Good-intent causes good

actions, and vice versa.

We can think of a Nazi's intent as bad, but the intent of my brother for

instance isn't a want to kill animals, but his eating meat is more because

of a sense of inability (the change is too big), ignorance (nutrition

concerns), and a victim of habit.

I didn't become vegan because of ignorance. My one friend didn't turn

vegan untill he resolved thinking of animals as an abstract issue instead of

a real one- he actually still thinks AR is silly at times until he thinks

about it.

 

In my opinion, these lacks or deficiencies are the problem - lack of

education, misunderstandings, feeling unable to eat different foods,

questions about Thanksgiving and if other people might think you're thinking

they're inferior or bad (this is still an issue with me)

The people with them are victims, because it's suffering to not be free to

act on caring feelings, adn want to avoid things because of the

guilt/fear/pain.

 

and then there's the aspect of will... do they want to change- do they

want to actually learn. this is big because it's the first step, wanting to

improve

 

I've personally known people who have shot dogs and done way worse things,

and aside from the immense harm they caused, i knew the degree to which they

were victims. One of them was repeatedly abused badly by his father, and at

a young age. He'd be beaten physically, be called to the top of the stairs

and pushed down, and be beaten if he didn't go to the top. He grew up

hating his father and with a very twisted idea of justice (that these things

could repeatedly happen to him and he had to accept him) He hated his

father but couldn't fight back or defend himself (he was beaten worse for

trying to avoid being beaten). He went to taking out his anger and

frustration out on scapegoats, animals, his younger brother. He has caused

a lot of harm in his life, and only because he was caused so much harm and

developed a very uncompassionate view of the world. Mostly, when

hearing of people who cause harm, we don't hear of their troubles, only of

their crimes, we only get to know them by the harm they cause, and not why

they caused it. We only learn of the effect, but not the cause.... and we

can start to think that the cause is innate in the person, that they are

badness; evil. But there is a big machine that produces

people, and instead of repeatedly jailing or throwing away defective people,

there's much more wisdom in finding why the machine produces defective

people, and fixing the problem (instead of trying to fix or throw away the

broken people). I've graduated in psych and had a special interest in

better understanding aggression and harm and there is no doubt that the vast

majority of the time these things are learned, and rarely innate.

 

Jon

 

-

" kiwi2000 " <kiwi2000

<vegan-network >

Wednesday, July 10, 2002 10:08 PM

Re: [100% veg*n ] Re: Confessions of a teenage meat eater

 

 

> This was a reply I sent to some people who felt it was ok to marry meat

eaters, thinking that they'll change down the line:

>

> Jane Doe,

> you talk about being a vegan as if it's a very casual thing for

people. For most people it's far from casual. It's not just a matter of him

liking football and her liking soap operas. It's very much more encompassing

than that. It's about murdering innocent animals for food when it is totally

> unnecessary. I would find it impossible to love someone who didn't

understand this. Which begs the question, what then is love. Is it just

attraction? Shouldn't it have something to do with strongly held beliefs and

shared values? Would you love a Nazi hoping that one day he'll

> stop exterminating Jews?

> Brad

> So what then is there to love in such a person and what then is love?

Is it just the physical relationship? Should we really love the person

> who is so insensitive that they can't see participating in murder is

wrong? What's the difference between the meat eater and the Nazi?

> Between animals and Jews? Don't they both have a right to live? Are not

both murderers equally guilty? How long do you give Mr. Nazi to change

before you give up on him?

 

>

>

>

> -

> John Allan

> 100% Veg*n

> Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:53 PM

> [100% veg*n ] Re: Confessions of a teenage meat eater

>

>

> Sorry if it sounds trite but ain't the general idea to love the sinner

but

> not the sin?

>

> > I for one could never love a meat eater. It seems to me that what

you've

> > done, for purposes of convenience, is to etc etc etc sell out.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jon,

communication is such a difficult thing. We see through our distortions

not very clearly. I know that using the word Nazi

evokes negative vibes. And you're right that the Nazi has hate in his heart and

the meat eater is more or less unconscious.

As with any analogy it serves only partially. By saying what I said, I'm not

judging or saying that meat eaters are Nazis.

To me murder is murder. If death of the innocent is the ultimate result does it

matter much how the killer felt or why he killed or

that he will keep on killing? To me an animals' life is as precious as a humans'

life. That seems to be missing in our discussions here.

We get very upset at the killing of a human, but not upset enough at the killing

of an animal. If the animals' family were to take up arms

and seek out the murderer of their kin and take revenge, how differently we

would all act. By using the analogy of the Nazi, I'm saying

that to take an animal life is just as bad as to take an human life. It isn't OK

in my mind to wait ten years to see if the person I married

will wake up one day, maybe, and stop participating in the murder (of animals).

Just as it wouldn't be OK for someone who married a Nazi to wait ten years to

see if maybe the Nazi will stop killing Jews. Every day that goes by is another

Jew and/or animal killed. Are you saying that it's OK to let X number of animals

die as we wait to see what will happen, maybe? How many sticks of dynamite will

it take to wake people up?

If you were the Jew or the animal that was going to be killed today because the

Nazi or meat eater hasn't come to realize that the killing was wrong, or your

wife or your child, or mother, father, brother, sister,best friend how would it

be then to wait that one more day if it meant your death or theirs? Oh no, we

don't want to be impolite or disrespectful here. God forbid someone should cry

out too loudly in the name of senseless, countless slaughter. It might disturb

the poor little sensibilities of our fellow members. Sorry all, I

don't have that kind of patience. This is not OK with me! Saying that this is

the way the world is, is no excuse. We are all much too comfortable with

killing.

Brad

-

resppect

vegan-network

Thursday, July 11, 2002 12:58 AM

Re: [100% veg*n ] Re: Confessions of a teenage meat eater

 

 

Brad,

 

I cannot resolve this topic completely, and it'll be one very big

enlightenment to get anywhere near resolving it.

I must admit I think I have fear about judging people in such harsh ways

as nazi's (however, I have some pretty strong feelings on Bush/Cheney). So

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I was just wondering Brad...are all of your family vegan or do you treat

them with the same amount of hate that you reserve for the rest of the

world's meat-eaters/non-vegans. If they are vegan you are very lucky to have

been brought up in such an environment but may have different experiences

than most of us have had and not had to deal with the same issues. If they

aren't vegan have you cut yourself off from them??

 

Gareth Pashley

Periodicals, Dorset House Library

Bournemouth University

gpashley

 

" Beneath the pavement, the beach "

 

>

> kiwi2000 [sMTP:kiwi2000]

> Thursday, July 11, 2002 7:12 AM

> vegan-network

> Re: [100% veg*n ] Re: Confessions of a teenage meat eater

>

> Jon,

> communication is such a difficult thing. We see through our

> distortions not very clearly. I know that using the word Nazi

> evokes negative vibes. And you're right that the Nazi has hate in his

> heart and the meat eater is more or less unconscious.

> As with any analogy it serves only partially. By saying what I said, I'm

> not judging or saying that meat eaters are Nazis.

> To me murder is murder. If death of the innocent is the ultimate result

> does it matter much how the killer felt or why he killed or

> that he will keep on killing? To me an animals' life is as precious as a

> humans' life. That seems to be missing in our discussions here.

> We get very upset at the killing of a human, but not upset enough at the

> killing of an animal. If the animals' family were to take up arms

> and seek out the murderer of their kin and take revenge, how differently

> we would all act. By using the analogy of the Nazi, I'm saying

> that to take an animal life is just as bad as to take an human life. It

> isn't OK in my mind to wait ten years to see if the person I married

> will wake up one day, maybe, and stop participating in the murder (of

> animals). Just as it wouldn't be OK for someone who married a Nazi to wait

> ten years to see if maybe the Nazi will stop killing Jews. Every day that

> goes by is another Jew and/or animal killed. Are you saying that it's OK

> to let X number of animals die as we wait to see what will happen, maybe?

> How many sticks of dynamite will it take to wake people up?

> If you were the Jew or the animal that was going to be killed today

> because the Nazi or meat eater hasn't come to realize that the killing was

> wrong, or your wife or your child, or mother, father, brother, sister,best

> friend how would it be then to wait that one more day if it meant your

> death or theirs? Oh no, we don't want to be impolite or disrespectful

> here. God forbid someone should cry out too loudly in the name of

> senseless, countless slaughter. It might disturb the poor little

> sensibilities of our fellow members. Sorry all, I don't have

> that kind of patience. This is not OK with me! Saying that this is the way

> the world is, is no excuse. We are all much too comfortable with killing.

> Brad

>

>

>