Guest guest Posted July 13, 2002 Report Share Posted July 13, 2002 >Yes Michael, and meanwhile the killing goes on and on..... So do lots of other injustices, who are you to say which one I should consider most important? >Do what you've gotta do. Have a go at people because you disapprove of their partner? And that stops " the killing " ? >>...do not coincide with that of most people, including other vegans, ..... >who's speaking for all vegans now? Did I say all vegans? No. I said other vegans, as in some, as in not all. Was it really that unclear? >some things are too important to put aside. Maybe for you, but no-one has said you have to put anything aside. I don't have a problem with you only wanting vegan partners, just as much as I don't have any problem with those who do not mind non-vegan ones. >I'm not sure I understand the difference between what I am and who I >am. Aren't they the same thing? Then read any philosophy about the self, about identity, about existentialism, it is a fundamental distinction. To give a simple example from Sartre though,(though used out of context), you are in a room on a hot day so you open the window. A hot person is what you are, that has nothing to do with you opening the window though, you do so because of who you are. Someone else may not have opened the window, for whatever reason. It may seem like a trivial issue compared to the ethics of veganism, but just as your ethics means to you that you could not accept someone who is not a vegan, to someone else they may feel they are doing no wrong, and maybe even good in a different way. After all, what good can be done from ghettoizing yourself and shunning society ? Or to put it another way, both you and I are vegans, but we are very different about what that means to us, and about why we are vegans. We might be the same what-I-am, but we are very different who-I-am's. >There ARE such things as vegans and of course they are made up of >individuals who aren't exactly the same. Here you are using vegans as an abstract collective noun, no one doubts that usage. When you accused Graham of hating vegans you were using it as a name. Not sure of the grammatical terminology (abstract versus concrete noun I suppose) to explain the distinction, but read Betrand Russell if you want to understand the difference, he wrote at length, and somewhat tediously, about the use of names. Or to put it more simply, if you make any sweeping statement about vegans then you are very likely to be wrong. The definition of vegan is itself subject to enough interpretations and debate that even the simplest formulation you can offer will exclude some. >It was you who referred to a >community of vegans whom you wouldn't want to be part of. No, it was *your* community of vegans I wouldn't want to be part of. Of course I am a member of vegans communities, such as this mailing list and many others, all of which welcome a diversity of vegan views and don't accuse people of being meat eaters in vegans clothing. >I can't make anyone look stupid. Some people manage to do that >very well without my help. That's rather arrogant, don't you think? >Aren't we here to learn about each other? Did you try to learn about Hannah before criticizing her personal decisions. > Why do you take offense so easily? Do I? Why do you jump to conclusions so easily? You do know I'm the list owner of the formally notorious list, I'm the ringmaster of offensiveness! > I'm not trying to control you. So you would be okay with me if I said my partner was a meat eater? You wouldn't condemn me for not being a true vegan? You wouldn't criticize my choices? I guess you're mellowing. >You needn't feel threatened by me. I don't. With all due respect I consider you to be more of an irritant. Sufficed to say that I've said my piece and so can now happily ignore you. >Maybe if you were more opened to >talking about yourself and less defensive... Since when was this about me, and how am I not open to talking about myself. What do you want to know? I've only responded to you once so I haven't even had a chance to be defensive yet! Ask around, a lot of people around here know quite a bit about me already. Still if there is anything you want to know feel free to ask, I am a rather open person. >instead of you're being supercilious towards me. Unlike the way you've been towards Hannah and Graham you mean? > Sometimes communication starts out as a >shout in the dark. " Hello, who's there? Be ye friend or foe? " Sometimes communications starts with someone sending many emails to several lists, that after reading enable me to be able to build up a fairly reliable idea about them. Still, since when was this about me? Oh, if you thought my first email was a diatribe (then I hate to think how you will describe this response) then be grateful I wrote it in an objective frame of mind. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2002 Report Share Posted July 13, 2002 - Mavreela vegan-network Saturday, July 13, 2002 10:18 AM Re: [100% veg*n ] Re: The whole hating vegans thing Dear moderator, I cut this down as much as possible without losing the thread. Please post. >Yes Michael, and meanwhile the killing goes on and on..... >>So do lots of other injustices, who are you to say which one I should >>consider most important? We can't deal with all of then here can we? I'm trying to deal with AR for now. >Do what you've gotta do. >>Have a go at people because you disapprove of their partner? And that >>stops " the killing " ? There's just something that bothers me about sleeping with the enemy........It seems to me that if being a vegan were important to one at all that living with someone who ate meat would push buttons. I guess I'm trying to get a half-hearted vegan to care more about animal killing such that they would do more to get their mate to stop eating them, maybe make an ultimatum and if the meatie cared enough about that person they might decide to stay with them and stop eating meat which would reduce demand and yes, help stop the killing. >some things are too important to put aside. >>Maybe for you, but no-one has said you have to put anything aside. I >>don't have a problem with you only wanting vegan partners, just as much as >>I don't have any problem with those who do not mind non-vegan ones. As I said above I do have that problem. It's being too tolerant of behavior that kills animals. >I can't make anyone look stupid. Some people manage to do that >very well without my help. >>That's rather arrogant, don't you think? Yes. But aren't you being equally as arogant when you dismiss me as silly and an irritant to be ignored. Are you that sure that you know me well? >>I don't. With all due respect I consider you to be more of an >>irritant. Sufficed to say that I've said my piece and so can now happily >>ignore you. You think you've got my number but I don't think you really do yet. >Maybe if you were more opened to >talking about yourself and less defensive... >>Since when was this about me, and how am I not open to talking about >>myself. What do you want to know? I've only responded to you once so I >>haven't even had a chance to be defensive yet! You're right I don't know you. >instead of you're being supercilious towards me. >>Unlike the way you've been towards Hannah and Graham you mean? I don't feel that I've been looking down my nose at anyone. It seemed to me that Graham was putting down vegans in general as people he wouldn't want to associate closely with and making caricatures of them, in favor of hanging out with with people who make no attempt whatsoever at improving the lot of beings on this planet. Or did I miss something there? Wasn't he making sweeping generalizations? I don't recall him making distinctions about different kinds of vegan groups, one being composed of mostly pains in the ass, another being more tolerant less invasive, I only heard about the one. >>Sometimes communications starts with someone sending many emails to several >>lists, that after reading enable me to be able to build up a fairly >>reliable idea about them. Still, since when was this about me? Isn't this about all of us? Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2002 Report Share Posted July 14, 2002 >Yes. But aren't you being equally as arogant when you dismiss me as silly >and an irritant to be ignored. I never said you were silly, I said " Accusing people of being a " vegan in meat eaters clothing " ... make you look quite silly " . Also I never said you should be ignored, I only said that *I* would ignore you. (Which is why this will be my only other reply to you on this.) > Are you that sure that you know me well? Well enough to know that we will never agree, well enough to know that you are incapable of empathizing with those you call " a half-hearted vegan " simply because this don't share your opinion. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 15, 2002 Report Share Posted July 15, 2002 In a message dated 7/13/02 6:03:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kiwi2000 writes: > >including other vegans, ..... > > who's speaking for all vegans now? starting july 27th that would be me..as i get the special speaking staff and " vegan spokesperson " shash.. fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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