Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 vegan-network, " Dee Matheson " <dmatheson72@h...> wrote: > Thanx for replies. That's interesting to know about how they kill the bees > off in winter in the states. I'll have to find out if all countries who > produce honey do the same. I didn't know that. > Here's some more stuff on the honey question snipped from a discussion at alt.food.vegan a while back, which contains a variety of viewpoints from various people. There was an interesting reply from a beekeeper which I will also forward- sorry it's a bit long... Search Result 1 Graham Burnett (grahamburnett) Re: honey? anyone? View: Complete Thread (18 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.food.vegan 2001-10-30 02:46:09 PST ralpher <ralpher wrote in message news:zm9D7.261962$bY5.1046253. > yet another question but i am so interested. do vegans eat honey? > > We had 'the honey question' before back in May- here's a repost of some of my thoughts from a permaculture perspective then, together with extracts from the follow up threads from here as well as alt.permaculture & off list... Sorry if it goes on a bit, but you will see that there is a diversity of views on this subject.... Cheers Graham www.landandliberty.co.uk --- ----- > As for honey, vegetarians eat honey, but vegans don't, however, I do know > quite a few people who avoid all animal products except honey on the grounds > that honey is probably a lot more environmentally sound than sugar. Indeed. I've given this quite a bit of thought from a permaculture perspective- bees are pollinators and play an important (in fact essential) part in edible ecosystems such as orchards, fruit gardens, even allotments, etc, indeed any edible landscape which includes flowering plants. They are part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic system, therefore to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as a yield from that system provided this is done with sensitivity and respect to the bees needs. The transaction could even be said to be mutually beneficial (in return for the excess honey harvested, the land steward (the human element in the system) is providing a rich and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive, organically growing flowering plants, etc)- this is not the same in my view as large scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the bees' welfare and where the relationship and their growing environment is exploitative and artificial/industrialised (I confess I don't know a great deal about commercial honey production, but I'm pretty sure in terms of ethics and ecological accountability it's the same as all large scale food production, where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate) is viewed purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total system with intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured beyond purely financial terms). It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts with 'full on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey production (an animal product) is more environmentally sound than sugar production (an animal free product, but which leaves in it's ecological footprint in food miles, land loss, exploited plantation workers, degraded and eroded land, cash crop economies, etc etc.) Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if able to source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned above eg, as a local product from a sustainable permaculture or organic garden, orchard, farm, etc. I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my kids... Cheers for now, -- Graham Burnett www.landandliberty.co.uk --- - Reply from alt.permaculture ng; Graham Burnett <gb0063551 wrote in message news:XfUM6.1345$hk3.275343. > Hi- at the risk of stiring up a hornet's nest (excuse pun), I thought > alt.pc-er's might be interested in this posting I've just sent to > alt.food.vegan... Hi Graham, Interesting post... .. They are > part of a (potentially closed and self sustaining) cyclic system, therefore > to me it is justifiable to harvest excess honey as a yield from that system > provided this is done with sensitivity and respect to the bees needs. The > transaction could even be said to be mutually beneficial (in return for the > excess honey harvested, the land steward (the human element in the system) > is providing a rich and diverse habitat, place to set up a hive, organically > growing flowering plants, etc)- We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive, left it outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the dimensions and make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of bees moved in... but, because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own somewhat more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own devices ever since - never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them coming and going on a warm day. this is not the same in my view as large > scale commercial honey production which cares nothing for the bees' welfare > and where the relationship and their growing environment is exploitative and > artificial/industrialised (I confess I don't know a great deal about > commercial honey production, but I'm pretty sure in terms of ethics and > ecological accountability it's the same as all large scale food production, > where the cow/bee/soya bean (Megacorp PLC doesn't differentiate) is viewed > purely as a commodity rather than a component within a total system with > intrinsic qualities, needs and value/worth measured beyond purely financial > terms). Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage - the kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and would use the syrup to ensure that they had enough feed over the winter. Commercial beekeepers, I believe, keep the syrup topped up all year, on the basis that it's wasted effort for them to go flying around collecting nectar... the bees are effectively converting man-made sugar, and that's why there's such a difference between commercial and other honey. > > It's another one of those issues where sustainability conflicts with 'full > on' veganism- as you pointed out small, local scale honey production (an > animal product) is more environmentally sound than sugar production (an > animal free product, but which leaves in it's ecological footprint in food > miles, land loss, exploited plantation workers, degraded and eroded land, > cash crop economies, etc etc.) It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal properties. eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the local range of flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So the vegan would have the dilemma of choosing an antihistamine from some pharmaceutical giant (hiss) over the natural (or some might even say 'magical') local product... > > Personally I havn't eaten honey since 1984, but probably would if able to > source it from a supplier such as that I have mentioned above eg, as a local > product from a sustainable permaculture or organic garden, orchard, farm, > etc. There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient and helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose it rubs off. Unfortuantely, Varroa has killed off a lot of honey bees in the UK and Europe, and it's now in Ireland aswell. I don't know whether this has had much effect on availability. > I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it > would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my > kids... I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently about Mason Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/ A snippet from their site : " These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and are fond of a range of flowers and tree blossom. The Red Mason Bee (Osmia rufa) is widespread in England and Wales and particularly likes the range of flowers and trees found in domestic gardens. It is a more efficient pollinator of fruit crops than the honeybee and by attracting them to your garden not only will you notice improved fruit crops - apples, plums, pears, strawberries and raspberries - but the bees also visit a wide range of garden flowers. The bees are active from late March to the beginning of July. The Red Mason Bee is not aggressive, a female will sting only if very roughly handled between the fingers and even then, it is a puny thing compared to a wasp or honeybee. " So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a honey bee hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having bees in the garden... If you want to quote any of the above at alt.food.vegan, help yourself. Of course, it doesn't answer the question of how to sweeten your custard :-) TTFN Mark --- ----- Extract from reply from alt.food.vegan, with my follow up; tharg <t_thargson wrote in message news:tg8fg7flgkoo45. > In my opinion, honey is made by bees for bees. Why should I steal it? > > But do we accept that we are part of an ecosystem ourselves, interacting and entering into relationships with other elements within that ecosystem, or do we try to stand totally outside of it? We are a part of nature, not apart from it. Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully vegan organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make use of other yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my opinion, especially if it reduces reliance on products imported from outside of an otherwise 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far away on land which has been 'stolen' from it's original usage), Cheers, -- Graham Burnett --- ------- -- Here's another reply from a fellow vegan to whom I copied this post who isn't (as far as I know) a r to this ng (probably got better things to do with his time); Cheers, Graham I disagree on the grounds that the honey bee Apis mellifera (an 'alien' species to this country), from S.E Asia, is not needed to pollinate flowers as there are many other insects that do this. For example the bumble bee which has many different species. Indeed small scale honey production may be more sustainable but is it really 'surplus honey' you will be taking? Honey, when harvested from bee hives, has to be replaced by a sugar alternative as the bees need their honey to survive and feed their larva. Also is it correct that cane sugar isnt free of animal products due to the refining process using animal products such as bone? I wouldnt want to stop people using bee hives but there is no way that the bees are really cared for properly. I have heard horror stories about bees wings and other body parts being filtered out of honey, before it is packaged and sold, in commercial production. Still I would sugest that benefical insects should be encouraged to a garden or allotment rather than the honey bee. You can construct bug boxes and other places for bees, wasps and other insects that would happily pollinate your flowers. Bumble bees are on the decline this may help restore their numbers. As a vegan I would be happy to encourage these insects into my garden as permaculture should be about working with nature and especially native fauna. JON tharg <t_thargson wrote in message news:tgf7qh8jvdr9b5. > In my humble opinion Bees make the honey for themselves - it's not my honey > to take so I prefer to let the bees have their honey and I'll use something > else. However I do think that there is quite a difference between > commercial growers who kill their bees over the winter period and very-small > scale operations who take care of their bees in a more sound way. Even so - > as I do not know how individual bee-keepers look after their bees, when I'm > in the healthfood shop looking at the various jars of honey, I leave them on > the shelf. As there are so many other ways to sweeten foods I like to live > a honey-free existence and I do my best to plant flora that bees go for. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2002 Report Share Posted December 1, 2002 > Here's some more stuff on the honey question snipped from a > discussion at alt.food.vegan a while back, which contains a variety > of viewpoints from various people. There was an interesting reply > from a beekeeper which I will also forward- sorry it's a bit long... Here's the beekeeper's reply. BTW I had an interesting chat with a beekeeper the other day whilst visiting an orchard in north Essex. The bees were all going into hiernation and he was wrapping the hives in blue plastic to stop woodpeckers knocking holes in the hives and eating all the sleeping bees. Anyway, here's the post; Groups search result 3 for honey group:alt.food.vegan.* Search Result 3 Gadfly (badman) HONEY, BEES & VEGANS View: Complete Thread (15 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.food.vegan 2002-06-18 03:12:48 PST (slightly expanded & reposted as it may be of general interest) Many of the objections raised by vegans to eating honey are based on misconceptions or ignorance of modern beekeeping.. The modern British honey bee is the result of an 80 year programme of breeding and selection, much of which was carried out by the late Brother Adam of Buckfast Abbey (Devon) and his colleagues, following the virtual extinction of the native British 'black' bee through a disease called Acarine at the time of the First World War. They have been selectively bred for characteristics such as productivity, good temper, disease resistance, disinclination to swarm, over-wintering ability, and so on. (There is not, in any meaningful sense, a wild bee population in the UK. All the honeybees you see are either hived, or have swarmed from a hive in this or a previous (bee) generation.) As a result, they are pretty robust, easy to handle (I never wear gloves) and produce far more honey than they need for their own winter stocks. In a good season, a full colony may produce 150+ lb of honey, while they only need about 30-40 lb for winter stocks. Therefore, surplus honey can be removed without any adverse effects on the bees. The biggest threat to bees is disease: American and European Foul Brood are endemic but treatable if caught early, while the varroa mite and its associated viral diseases have recently migrated here and last year some swarms in Devon began to show signs of varroa having become resistant to treatment. So this sort of thing (quoted from another thread): > We're probably the world's worst beekeepers - we bought a hive, left it > outside so that I'd eventully get around to copying the dimensions and make a couple more hives. In the meantime, a swarm of bees moved in... but, > because we hadn't left the frames inside, they built their own somewhat more anarchic version, and we've left them to their own devices ever since - > never taken an ounce of honey, but, as you say, they're useful pollinators, and it's interesting and peaceful to sit and watch them coming and going on a warm day. -- i.e. leaving a colony in a hive without checking for disease would be regarded by beekeepers as irresponsible, because of the potential for infecting other colonies. In my experience, all beekeepers are concerned for the welfare of their bees. I cannot speak for large scale commercial operations, but even they will take reasonable care because the bees are their livelihood, and if you abuse bees, they *will* complain, with painful consequences. > Most beekeepers would feed the bees a sugar syrup at some stage - the >kinder keeper wouldn't rob the colony of all it's honey, and would use the syrup >to ensure that they had enough feed over the winter. Sugar syrup is used to top up winter feed if needed, and occasionally at other times (such as immediately after hiving a swarm to help them get settled in). Conscientious 'hobby' beekeepers tend to leave enough honey for winter stocks. Commercial beekeepers, I > believe, keep the syrup topped up all year, on the basis that it's wasted > effort for them to go flying around collecting nectar... the bees are > effectively converting man-made sugar, and that's why there's such a > difference between commercial and other honey. The only commercial honey producer I have direct experience of is Buckfast Abbey, and they certainly to not feed sugar all year round. I can't really believe that anyone does this - it would be hugely expensive and quite unnecessary in any but the worst season. > It can get even more complicated - honey has several medicinal properties. > eg. truly _local_ honey, collected by bees from the local range of flowering plants, is said to relieve hay fever. So the vegan would have the dilemma of choosing an antihistamine from some pharmaceutical giant (hiss) over the > natural (or some might even say 'magical') local product... Local honey has to be one of the most healthy, eco-friendly foods you can buy. Which would you rather eat/use: - honey or sugar? - propolis or antibiotics? - beeswax or paraffin wax? Are you going to support small-scale, local beekeeping, or agribusiness, pharmaceuticals and the petrochemical industry? It seems to me that vegans have to face up to this one. > There are beekeepers everywhere, and they're usually kind, patient and > helpful people - bees are all about co-operation, and I suppose it rubs off. Indeed, bees are probably the best model of a truly co-operative species, along with certain kinds of ants. However, I think it would be dangerous to draw too many parallels with human society. For one thing, the queen is the only sexually mature female in the hive, and her job is simply to lay eggs, which she does at the rate of about 2000 per *day* for her productive lifetime, which may be up to 5 years, though usually less. And she only mates once in her lifetime (some say 2-3x) with several drones (male bees). All the work in the hive is done by sexually immature females (workers), while the drones bumble about getting in the way (sounds familiar to some, I know...). BTW - worker bees live 15-30 days during the summer, as much as 3 months in winter. > > I did think about putting some bees in my own garden once, but decided it would be too much work/responsibility + they might be incompatible with my kids... I would encourage anyone with a garden - even a roof garden in a town - to keep bees unless they or members of their family or immediate neighbours are one of the small number who are allergic to bee stings. One or two hives do not take a lot of looking after, and there are local associations to help out in most areas. Bees hardly ever sting unless provoked. I can open one of my hives, take out and examine frames full of bees, put it all back together all without wearing gloves and I hardly ever get stung. I do wear a veil, as getting stung in the eye can lead to blindness and stings in or near the mouth can be very painful. It is true that a bee - unlike a wasp - will die after stinging a human because of their barbed sting and the elasticity of human skin, which may be one reason they don't do it much - although that may be ascribing them too much intelligence. Another myth is that honey bees 'crowd out' other insects. I see no evidence of this. In fact, the other day I counted 35 bumble bees of at least 3 different species on a patch of phacelia growing within a few feet of a hive containing at least 50,000 honey bees. Bumble bees and honeybees are adapted to different plants - bumble bees can feed on red clover, for example, while honey bees cannot and prefer the smaller flowers of white clover. > I may have the answer - there was an item on Radio 4 recently about Mason > Bees, See http://www.oxbeeco.com/ > " These docile bees are safe with children and pets, are excellent > pollinators of fruit trees, raspberries, early strawberries and are fond <snip> > So vegans could provide a cheap nest box (this is nothing like a honey bee > hive) and get all the non-exploitative benefits of having bees in the > garden... Yes, I would encourage this - mason bees are vg pollinators. But if you want the fun and interest of watching one of nature's most perfectly adapted creatures (with a little help from man *ahem* humans *ahem* people - oh fuck it, beekeepers...) plus the undoubted medicinal and health benefits of honey and propolis, plus wonderful beeswax for making skin creams, cosmetics, candles, furniture polish, leather dressing (oops) and so on, then you can't do better than a hive ot two of honey bees. > Bees can be highly beneficially integrated into an otherwise fully vegan > organic edible landscape, to me it would make sense to make use of other > yields that they provide. This isn't 'stealing' in my opinion, especially if it reduces reliance on products imported from outside of an otherwise > 'closed' system (eg, refined sugar grown far away on land which has been > 'stolen' from it's original usage), > Graham Burnett Well put, Graham. Gad \|/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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