Guest guest Posted August 15, 2001 Report Share Posted August 15, 2001 > For more information on Asian animal issues, please use the search feature on the AAPN website: http://www.aapn.org/ or search the list archives at: aapn > Please feel free to send any relevant news or comments to the list at aapn or to the moderator at info > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 I have to disagree 100% with that statement. While the intent may be good, it's not factual. By your words; a vegan is due to lifestyle choice- this is a statement most obviously made by someone who is not a vegan, or who has been told that by someone who says they are vegan but really haven't researched the subject. It is, quite literally, impossible in modern day society, to 'live vegan'. Animal byproducts and components invade nearly every aspect of our lives. Of course, this isn't universal for every country and society- but in the first world it is a given. Like that car your vegan friend drives? It has animal byproducts in the fluids. See the asphalt your friend is walking on while he's making smug comments about meateaters? It's got animal products in it. Oh, and when your friend was commenting how gross it was when you were watching that movie in the theatres and the lead character was eating a burger- that movie film- the actual film itself- has animal byproducts in it. Anyone who tells you they 'live vegan' and isnt in a secluded community with no roads and no interaction with the outside world; is wrong, or ignorant. Vegan is an ideal; nothing more. Like a utopian anarchism. We most likely wont see it anytime soon; but having the ideal gives us something to work for and a legacy of change to hand down to our children and allow them to see the values we believe in. I 'live vegan' as much as I can- but I also have a beautiful italian leather jacket that was given to me years ago by my grandfather, who is now dying. Any snotty little bugger who wants to criticize me for it gets nothing but a scathing ridicule in front of his/her peers. I got the jacket before I was vegan; it was a hand me down, it represents something extremely close to my heart, and if i take care of it, which I do, it will last long enough that someone else will be wearing it while maggots are all digging through our skulls. Thats sustainablility for the environment, if you ask me. I can't promise that 100% organic methods were used to make the jacket- but it's a nice jacket, and it's been around since probably the 70's, before that was an issue. Now, if anyone wants to tell me I'm 'not vegan' I welcome them, but they invite a harsh criticism on themselves, in turn. The onyl question I have when wearing it is, 'damn I look so good other people might just want to look this good to' but it's not my job to order them how to live, and like I said, i never paid a cent for it. I certainly wouldn't throw it out. As for labels; it's foolish at best to try to make others fit into one dictionary definition or label. Three different dictionaries from around the world will give you three different definitions, and trying to force others to fit yours is facist at best. As for 'you must adhere to a strict regimen or you don't have the right to call yourself a vegetarian or vegan' I think thats absolute crap. Unless you were born a vegan, you dont have the right to complain about anyone else in a negative light- you too have blood on your hands, even if you think you've washed it off. In fact, most people reading this have probably spent more of their lives as nonvegans than vegetarians/vegans- oh wait.. did i say vegan, not vegetarian? Yes, I did, because any vegetarian who condemns another vegetarian for perhaps eating a fish once a week; or having turkey on thanksgiving once a year; is laughable to someone who is a vegan; and I don't know any vegetarians who welcome being judged by vegans as unenlightened or impure. If the majority of your lifestyle is vegetarian; call yourself vegetarian- it bolsters our ranks, will help it become easier for others to feel it's acceptable, and facilitate more exchange of information and dialogue and allow more people to make the transition. If you decide to work for the vegan ideal; all the power to you, you're not alone either. If once in awhile you have a salmon steak, but your main source of proteins is plant based foods, then all the power to you. Judge not, etc etc. In short; share info; walk your own path; if others judge you, laugh at them- and promote what you believe in positively, not by condemning others or trying to tell people what they are or aren't or can or cannot be due to semantics. Words are evil. -K- 'You'll hunt elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center, and dig clams next to the skeleton of the Space Needle leaning at a forty-five degree angle.' " Imagine, " Tyler said, " stalking elk past department store windows and stinking racks of beautiful rotten dresses and tuxedos on hangers; you'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life, and you'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower... you'll climb up through the forest canopy and the air will be so clean you'll see tiny figures pounding corn and laying strips of venison to dry in the empty car pool lane of an abandoned superhighway stretching eight-lanes-wide and August hot for a thousand miles. " ' -Tyler Durden > Lisa Green <moonbug > Re: fishy > > I agree with alot of what Dave said here, it isn't > nice to label > people, however giving accurate labels makes it a > whole lot easier when we > are eating out, visiting etc. This is why I think > that people should be > accurate when describing their diet or lifestyle, > don't call yourself a > vegetarian if you eat fish or a vegan if you eat > eggs even if it is > ocassionally becuase it has a tendancy of confusing > the wider > community. I'm sure we have all gone into > restaraunts and been offered the > chicken or fish option when we don't eat it which > can be confusing and > frustrating for all. > > The difference as I ( & most of the people omni, veg, > vegan I know) between > vegetarianism and veganism is that vegetarianism is > a dietary choice and > veganism is a lifestyle choice. For example a vegan > would not use leather > whilst a vegetarian may chose to. Also there is a > term for dietary vegans > it's " vegtalan " (just to confuse you all even more!) > so thats people who > won't eat animal products but don't have a issue > with wool/silk etc. > > As for cruelty in the wool industry I suggest the > book " Pulling the > Wool " by Christene Townsend it's quite informative > of the conditions on > wool farms and on sheep in general. And then theres > the ecology point of > view (in Australia at least the indroduction of > cloven hoofed animals has > really f***ed the environment & soil systems) > > Regards to the fish, > LisA > ICQ#: 15562604 > *** www.gu.uwa.edu.au/clubs/vegies *** > > " I think---therefore I'm single... " > -Lizz Winstead ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Send Flowers for Valentine's Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 Very interesting letter, Keith. See additional comments below. Mr.Graves [sleepingtao] >>...It is, quite literally, impossible in modern day society, to 'live vegan'. Animal byproducts and components invade nearly every aspect of our lives...<< IMHO, absolutely true. Sadly, much of the proof is hidden in a mass-communicating society. >>...As for labels; it's foolish at best to try to make others fit into one dictionary definition or label. Three different dictionaries...will give you three different definitions, and trying to force others to fit yours is facist at best.<< We use labels to communicate our ideas, feelings, and beliefs. All of our labels are but words for each of those ideas, feelings and beliefs we sense within ourselves. Without words, we have no common vocabulary with which to speak, and where does that leave us? I only see a problem when we cannot agree on the label's meaning. >>As for 'you must adhere to a strict regimen or you don't have the right to call yourself a vegetarian or vegan' I think thats absolute crap.<< For me, vegetarian has only one meaning, " a person who does not eat meat. " If you eat fish occasionally and prefer the balance of your diet to be veggie, there's another label describing that diet, and it's not vegetarian. What's the problem with calling " a duck, a duck? " Words only have usefulness if they are used to mean what the speaker intends. If you don't know the meaning of a word, then that's a totally different problem to be resolved. >>...because any vegetarian who condemns another vegetarian for perhaps eating a fish once a week; or having turkey on thanksgiving once a year; is laughable to someone who is a vegan;...<< If you accurately describe the " vegan " view of vegetarians, then I'm happy to not be included in their ranks. I add that any veggie who eats fish or turkey occasionally, ought to reconsider their commitment to their diet and their " loose " usage of the vegetarian label. >>...If the majority of your lifestyle is vegetarian; call yourself vegetarian- it bolsters our ranks, will help it become easier for others to feel it's acceptable, and facilitate more exchange of information and dialogue and allow more people to make the transition.<< Here's where I agree with LISA. Labels have meaning that we all rely on in our daily lives. To use such labels without regard for their communicative value to the people around you is akin to suddenly deciding to say " red " when you really mean " green. " Who benefits from this communication? IMHO, we already have too much doublespeak and distortion in our communicative tools. Why do specific words exist for the various levels of a veggie diet even exist, if you're going to be so cavalier as to ignore them. >>..If once in awhile you have a salmon steak, but your main source of proteins is plant based foods, then all the power to you. Judge not, etc etc.<< Describing this particular person by an appropriate veggie label is not " judgmental. " It is simple a accurate reflection of the diet that person chooses for themselves every time they put a bite of salmon steak in their mouth. Unless this nonveggie person is ashamed of what they've eaten, what's the problem with calling their diet what it is? I see it as a simple exercise in personal honesty. >>...promote what you believe in positively, not by condemning others or trying to tell people what they are or aren't or can or cannot be due to semantics. Words are evil.<< Words are not evil anymore than a gun is evil. In the wrong hands, both can become incredibility destructive. A person who has learned to use a gun is less likely to have a accident with it. Likewise, the effective use of words is also an acquired skill. Vocabulary usage in the US is at the 8th grade level (some even say 6th grade) and going lower each year. This is not meant to be critical of other group members, only to add perspective to the dialogue about " words being evil or not. " We insist as a matter of law that gun users demonstrate a certain level of care with the application of their " handheld uniquely shaped metal appliances. " Is it really judgmental to insist that certain words be clearly applied in a public dialogue with their normal and intended usage? I conclude by adding that " evil words originate only from evil people. " DaveO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 13, 2003 Report Share Posted February 13, 2003 I was wondering if you could be a little more specific on your statements about animal bi-products being in the several things you mentioned. Perhaps a little more technical, like what is being used and for what reasons. I'm not at all doubting your statements. I just want to be informed, and stating that " this is in that " and " that is in this " , just doesn't cut it for me. I understand if you don't have any resources available, however if you do, it would be most appreciated. Adios, Shawn " I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything that I hoped it could be. " Peter Gibbons - Office Space " It's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care. " Peter Gibbons - Office Space ----Original Message Follows---- " Mr.Graves " <sleepingtao Re: Digest Number 243 Thu, 13 Feb 2003 08:08:04 -0800 (PST) I have to disagree 100% with that statement. While the intent may be good, it's not factual. By your words; a vegan is due to lifestyle choice- this is a statement most obviously made by someone who is not a vegan, or who has been told that by someone who says they are vegan but really haven't researched the subject. It is, quite literally, impossible in modern day society, to 'live vegan'. Animal byproducts and components invade nearly every aspect of our lives. Of course, this isn't universal for every country and society- but in the first world it is a given. Like that car your vegan friend drives? It has animal byproducts in the fluids. See the asphalt your friend is walking on while he's making smug comments about meateaters? It's got animal products in it. Oh, and when your friend was commenting how gross it was when you were watching that movie in the theatres and the lead character was eating a burger- that movie film- the actual film itself- has animal byproducts in it. Anyone who tells you they 'live vegan' and isnt in a secluded community with no roads and no interaction with the outside world; is wrong, or ignorant. Vegan is an ideal; nothing more. Like a utopian anarchism. We most likely wont see it anytime soon; but having the ideal gives us something to work for and a legacy of change to hand down to our children and allow them to see the values we believe in. I 'live vegan' as much as I can- but I also have a beautiful italian leather jacket that was given to me years ago by my grandfather, who is now dying. Any snotty little bugger who wants to criticize me for it gets nothing but a scathing ridicule in front of his/her peers. I got the jacket before I was vegan; it was a hand me down, it represents something extremely close to my heart, and if i take care of it, which I do, it will last long enough that someone else will be wearing it while maggots are all digging through our skulls. Thats sustainablility for the environment, if you ask me. I can't promise that 100% organic methods were used to make the jacket- but it's a nice jacket, and it's been around since probably the 70's, before that was an issue. Now, if anyone wants to tell me I'm 'not vegan' I welcome them, but they invite a harsh criticism on themselves, in turn. The onyl question I have when wearing it is, 'damn I look so good other people might just want to look this good to' but it's not my job to order them how to live, and like I said, i never paid a cent for it. I certainly wouldn't throw it out. As for labels; it's foolish at best to try to make others fit into one dictionary definition or label. Three different dictionaries from around the world will give you three different definitions, and trying to force others to fit yours is facist at best. As for 'you must adhere to a strict regimen or you don't have the right to call yourself a vegetarian or vegan' I think thats absolute crap. Unless you were born a vegan, you dont have the right to complain about anyone else in a negative light- you too have blood on your hands, even if you think you've washed it off. In fact, most people reading this have probably spent more of their lives as nonvegans than vegetarians/vegans- oh wait.. did i say vegan, not vegetarian? Yes, I did, because any vegetarian who condemns another vegetarian for perhaps eating a fish once a week; or having turkey on thanksgiving once a year; is laughable to someone who is a vegan; and I don't know any vegetarians who welcome being judged by vegans as unenlightened or impure. If the majority of your lifestyle is vegetarian; call yourself vegetarian- it bolsters our ranks, will help it become easier for others to feel it's acceptable, and facilitate more exchange of information and dialogue and allow more people to make the transition. If you decide to work for the vegan ideal; all the power to you, you're not alone either. If once in awhile you have a salmon steak, but your main source of proteins is plant based foods, then all the power to you. Judge not, etc etc. In short; share info; walk your own path; if others judge you, laugh at them- and promote what you believe in positively, not by condemning others or trying to tell people what they are or aren't or can or cannot be due to semantics. Words are evil. -K- 'You'll hunt elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center, and dig clams next to the skeleton of the Space Needle leaning at a forty-five degree angle.' " Imagine, " Tyler said, " stalking elk past department store windows and stinking racks of beautiful rotten dresses and tuxedos on hangers; you'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life, and you'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower... you'll climb up through the forest canopy and the air will be so clean you'll see tiny figures pounding corn and laying strips of venison to dry in the empty car pool lane of an abandoned superhighway stretching eight-lanes-wide and August hot for a thousand miles. " ' -Tyler Durden > Lisa Green <moonbug > Re: fishy > > I agree with alot of what Dave said here, it isn't > nice to label > people, however giving accurate labels makes it a > whole lot easier when we > are eating out, visiting etc. This is why I think > that people should be > accurate when describing their diet or lifestyle, > don't call yourself a > vegetarian if you eat fish or a vegan if you eat > eggs even if it is > ocassionally becuase it has a tendancy of confusing > the wider > community. I'm sure we have all gone into > restaraunts and been offered the > chicken or fish option when we don't eat it which > can be confusing and > frustrating for all. > > The difference as I ( & most of the people omni, veg, > vegan I know) between > vegetarianism and veganism is that vegetarianism is > a dietary choice and > veganism is a lifestyle choice. For example a vegan > would not use leather > whilst a vegetarian may chose to. Also there is a > term for dietary vegans > it's " vegtalan " (just to confuse you all even more!) > so thats people who > won't eat animal products but don't have a issue > with wool/silk etc. > > As for cruelty in the wool industry I suggest the > book " Pulling the > Wool " by Christene Townsend it's quite informative > of the conditions on > wool farms and on sheep in general. And then theres > the ecology point of > view (in Australia at least the indroduction of > cloven hoofed animals has > really f***ed the environment & soil systems) > > Regards to the fish, > LisA > ICQ#: 15562604 > *** www.gu.uwa.edu.au/clubs/vegies *** > > " I think---therefore I'm single... " > -Lizz Winstead ===== Where is this beauty? I search and search and then find, We are the lotus. Om Mani Padme Hum Send Flowers for Valentine's Day _______________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.