Guest guest Posted December 30, 2000 Report Share Posted December 30, 2000 As a vegan myself I recommend all vegans take B12 supplements just to be sure as well as make sure you get adequate sunlight for D as many vegans don't.<br><br>Blake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 Raw vegans do not need B12 supplements. Please see message #552 and #574. Meat eaters get B12 from eating beef (for instance) but the cow got the B12 from eating raw grass. In fact every (so called) nutriant on the health food shelves, the cow gets from eating grass.<br><br>As for mental clarity I'm not there yet although I have a glimpse of it now and then, see messages #546, 549, 577 and 585.<br><br>As for the benefits I have received from raw foods, as I said before, I could not begain to discribe it here, it would take me a week, and you a week to read it. Everything in my life has changed and is still changing.<br><br>Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 & gt; Raw vegans do not need B12 supplements.<br><br>Please see the following article. Even raw vegans have been shown to<br>be B12 defecient<br><br><a href=http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html target=new>http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12.html</a><br><br><br>Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 I wont get into the details here, but if you are a vegan for over 3 yrs, then I highly recommend you get your b12 levels tested. ANd do not rely on a b12 test alone, as it has been shown not to be effective in determining b12 status. You need to get a MMA (methyl malonic acid) and A Hcy (homocysteine) test to be sure. Many longterm raw food vegans have turned up b12 defecient<br><br>In Health<br>Jeff N] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 Rauma et al.78 (1995, Finland) examined the B12 status in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet called the " living food diet " . These raw foodists assumed that their large intake of fermented foods (about 2 kg/day in this study) would provide plenty of B12 as well as modify their intestinal bacteria to provide more B12. In one part of the study, food consumption data were collected and blood samples were taken from 9 vegan " living food eaters " (1 male, 8 females) 2 years apart. Six of the 9 vegans showed slow, consistent deterioration of B12 status over this period, indicating that the supply of B12 from the " living food diet " is inadequate to maintain the sB12. In another part of the study, sB12 and dietary intakes in 21 living food eaters were compared to 21 NV. Living food eaters had been on their diets for an average of 5.2 years (R 0.7-14 yrs). Vegan living food eaters had significantly lower sB12 (mean 261 R 47-551 pg/ml) compared with their matched NV controls (420 R 177-651 pg/ml). 6 vegans had B12 levels below 203 pg/ml vs. 1 NV. Blood values (MCV, hemoglobin) did not differ significantly from the NV nor was it correlated with sB12 levels. In the vegan group, B12 intake (through seaweed) correlated with sB12. The 16 vegans consuming nori and/or chlorella seaweeds had serum B12 levels (298, R 101-551 pg/ml) twice as high as the 5 vegans not using these seaweeds (142, R 47-340 pg/ml). Rauma et al. concluded that some seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply adequate amounts of bioavailable B12. However, they also thought the high levels of iodine in the seaweeds would be detrimental over time. Davis26 (1997, USA) had strong doubts about Rauma et al.'s conclusion that some seaweeds are potentially adequate sources of B12 for vegans. Davis points out Dagnelie's21 1991 study showing that nori and spirulina did not improve B12 status. Until better methods are found, Davis suggests that the adequacy of B12 in algae must be measured by whether it can reverse B12 symptoms. According to Davis, so far, no algae has been shown to do this and two have failed in their initial testing. Dagnelie24 (1997) also responded to Rauma et al., pointing out that the available evidence indicates that B12 in algae is not bioactive in humans. He says, " We are concerned that Rauma et al.'s paper could stimulate the popular vegetarian thought that vegan diets are safe as long as seaweeds are used, and stimulate the consumption of seaweeds in potentially harmful amounts " . Rauma & Torronen79 (1997) responded to these criticisms by pointing out that the average consumption of seaweeds by these vegans failed to maintain sB12 regardless of whether B12 or analogue had been measured. Because of nonactive analogues and the high iodine content of some seaweeds, Rauma & Torronen did not think that eaters of the living food diet can rely on seaweed as a source of B12. They said, " We regret that our conclusions may have lead to misinterpretation in this respect. However, the Finnish eaters of the 'living food' diet participating in this study started to supplement their diet after finding out their low vitamin B12 status. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2000 Report Share Posted December 31, 2000 Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me. Eating is not an activity solely intended for body maintenance. There’s eating for comfort, eating as a social activity, eating something because it tastes good, on and on. <br>If I have to think too much about eating the pleasure of eating just vanishes and it becomes a frikkin bore.<br>I became a vegetarian in 1965 and went through all phases of being one, from being “Purer” than your average carnivore to the realization of the political ramifications, to understanding the social and sociological ramifications, to the ecological consequences and on, and on ad nauseum.<br>I will eat more raw than before, having been exposed to this club and the concepts of raw food consumption but radical dieting such as I see is not for me.<br><br>Vegetarianism itself is radical enough for my sensibilities. It’s no longer elitist as it once was. I live in a very rural environment in a small Texas community. What is really funny is that there are approximately 8 to 10 restaurants in my area. Every one offers on it’s menu, in writing, a vegetarian alternative, Vege-burgers, lentil loaves, Tempe dishes etc. What’s really odd is to have watched something as radical as vegetarianism was in 1965 be co-opted by business interests and now be almost as common as Coca Cola.<br><br>Good luck to you Raw folks. You are gonna need it.<br><br>Bye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 3, 2001 Report Share Posted January 3, 2001 & gt; & gt; & gt; & gt;Meat eaters get B12 from eating beef (for instance) but the cow got the B12 from eating raw grass. In fact every (so called) nutriant on the health food shelves, the cow gets from eating grass.<br><br>To be correct, the cow gets its b12 from only one source and it is not grass. It gets it b12 from the same place all b12 comes from and that is bacteria. Bacteria that live in its gut is one source. Bacteria that live in the soil and " contaminate " the grass that the cow is eating is another source. The grass itself does not provide the b12<br><br>In Health<br>Jeff N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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