What effect... Benefits of raw!!!

April 18, 2001

Mallon,,, Even if enzymes do aid in

digestion that would in no way explain the benefits some

people have recieved while on the diet. Neither would

just having a more vitamin and mineral rich diet. It

is far more complex than this. Another point

I want to raise is that not all the benefots can be

attributed to the fact that the diet is raw. For

example a diet: -Free of animal products -Free of

refined sugar and refined grains -Free of

salt -Free of coffee, tea sodas etc -Free of

alcohol -Free of chemical additives -Low in fat, especially

saturated, and high in fiber -Has plenty of

EFA's -Free of other refined products -Containing much

fruits and vegetables -That allows reduction of

excess bodyfat, blood pressure, cholesterol and

triglycerides -That is organic -That is of fresh foods This

diet, say a whole foods, organic, fresh, vegan diet

with plenty of fruit and veggies but no particular

focus of the raw content will bring much of the

benefits that a raw diet that also has these traits

will. And further more it is unfair to compare refined

cooked to whole raw foods. If you are going to compare

the two compare foods like steamed

veggies. Only a fraction of the effects of cooked vs raw is

really known and there are a lot of incorrect theories

in the movement. I for one think Tom

Billing's site, beyondveg.com, is one of the best raw sites

on the net. BTW beyondveg does not advocate a

particular diet and Tom has been a vegetarian for ~30 years

and is still ~85 raw and is not anti-raw.

April 18, 2001

Blake, Now my turn to dispute one of your

points of logic: " Even if enzymes do aid in digestion

that would in no way explain the benefits some people

have recieved while on the diet. " While enzymes

might not " fully " explain all benefits, logic would

dicate that if enzymes aid digestion there are likely

positive benefits from that: full or better assimilation

of vitamins & minerals, more rapid digestion and

elimination which is desired to prevent fermentation,

putrifaction, and colon diverticulosis and other problems of

the colon, etc. All the positive side-benefits to

better digestion can improve on general

health. Regarding " intuitive " eating, I tend to agree with

Leafygreens while acknowledging that some peoples intuition

is probably corrupted by prolonged exposure to mass

media, misinformation and other factors. The key to

being able to trust your intuition is to work on

clearing your mind of unhealthy thoughts and input

sources, then learning to trust your instincts as you

begin to sense the true wisdom of the universe emerge

through you. Try an example: If you're a coffee

drinker, go ahead and have that first cup. Then pick up

the second cup and look at it and ask your stomach if

you really want it. If you don't get a negative

reponse or feeling, go ahead and drink it. Then pick up a

third cup and ask the question again. Most likely, you

will feel a tangible tightening in your gut which is

your body telling you that it really does not want

another cup. If you've been treating your body

like a garbage dump for many years, your body's

response mechanism will probably be weak or minimal until

you begin decent eating habits and your body again

learns to recognize good from bad. It has been

established that some people with certain dietary

deficiencies, like a mineral deficiency for example, will crave

unusual foods without necessarily understanding why.

Often the food they crave (some people crave dirt) will

contain the item they're deficient in. You may

have heard of V.E. Irons, a man (American) born around

1897 diagnesed with a chronic form of arthritis in his

early forties and told by mulitiple doctors there was

no " cure " . He put himself through a series of

colonic irrigations and adopted eating habits sensitive

to the need to not combine incompatible foods, and

with an emphasis of 50% or more raw and the avoidence

of highly processed foods. He cured himself of his

affliction and lived into his 90's, fathering his last child

in his 80's. While anecdotal, this suggests to me

that good digestion and a clean colon are conducive to

good health and probably one of the single best things

people can do to control their state of

health. Mallon

April 19, 2001

There has been a lot more reasearch on raw foods

than you realize, you'r just not looking for it. Try

reading Intuitive Eating by Humbart Santillo. The book is

filled with studies and experiments that have been done

on raw foods. Leafy greens; I don't think

you realize that cooked food is an addiction. I'm

sure it " feels " right to a heroin addict to shoot up

another needle of heroin. Doug

April 19, 2001

Mallon,,, " While enzymes might not " fully "

explain all benefits, logic would dicate that if enzymes

aid digestion there are likely positive benefits from

that: full or better assimilation of vitamins &

minerals, more rapid digestion and elimination which is

desired to prevent fermentation, putrifaction, and colon

diverticulosis and other problems of the colon, etc. All the

positive side-benefits to better digestion can improve on

general health. " Yes better digestion may be

important but is it really due to raw, could it not be food

choices ie fruits and vegetables over grains, meat and

refined junk. Fruits and vegetables are primarily our

natural foods, ie what we have evolved to primarily eat.

They are 'perfect' for us. While they are preferably

eaten raw any diet based around fruits and veggies

independent of raw is a huge step in the right

direction. I don't see all the fuss over

enzymes. " Regarding " intuitive " .... " I still feel we live in

such a diverse world -Produce is different to it

was in previous generations -We have lived most of

our lives eating so differently -The quality of

foods is different -We live such different

lifestyles things such as these influence what is right for us.

Suppose we have a genetically evolved intuition

concerning diet and we can tap into this what was right for

a hunter gatherer may not be right for

us. What about all the people who have been led by their

intuition to horribly deficient diets, I would go as far to

say that most raw fooders do not get balanced diets,

not that SAD eaters do BTW. While protein is

generally one of the most over rated nutrients it is not

impossible for people to be deficient and there has been

people deficient on a few raw boards I have been on.

Fatty acids can often be lacking and other

things. Intuition is not enough you need knowledge, you can't just

'trust in nature' as people atemp and expect to get

everything you need. There constatly people passing

through raw boards and email lists, i'm on three, you are

having problems that are more than detox symptoms. There

is a right and a wrong way to eat raw, many switch

to raw feel good and assume that their diet will be

fine on the long term, then problems gradually start

cropping up. Based on my experience from reading

and analysing rae diets raw fooders need a lot of

greens to balance a diet, more than most eat. No

one assume that because you've done great for a year

or so that this proves your diet for the long

term. Blake BTW i'm reading The new 'Raw Energy' it's intersting.

April 19, 2001

Doug,,, 'There has been a lot more

reasearch on raw foods than you realize, you'r just not

looking for it. Try reading Intuitive Eating by Humbart

Santillo. The book is filled with studies and experiments

that have been done on raw foods.' I'm reading

'Raw energy' right now which seems to present some

research. You can put forward evidence that seems to

suggest just about anything, I will change my position

when I feel I have seen enough evidence to conice me,

until then I see no need or desire to cling to every

claim that seems to further the raw

argument. " Leafy greens; I don't think you realize that cooked

food is an addiction. " I think grains are the

hardest thing to go without, after a lifetime of having

them at the center of you diet it is hard to give them

up. Blake

April 19, 2001

This is kinda fun. The board gets dull from time

to time. I'll pick one statement of your I don't

agree with; " Intuition is not enough you need

knowledge, you can't just 'trust in nature' as people atemp

and expect to get everything you

need. " Mankind has been on this earth for many many thousands of

years, but our current " knowledge " of nutrition arguably

dates only a hundred years or so. One would think with

the " knowledge " we now have about nutrition that we

would be healthier, but the exact opposite is

true. True it is not 100% " knowledge " or false-knowledge

that is to blame, but also partly also overrefining of

foods. But most of the people disseminating the

" knowledge " will say that processed foods are not the issue

as long as they have x percentage of vitamin A, y

percentage of mineral B, such-and-such ratio of

carbs/protein/fat, etc. Because of this " knowledge " , many people

believe an " energy bar " (basically a scaled down candy

bar) is ideal food because it has the right ratio of

what they're told is good. I'll say again that

when people's intution fails them its because they're

F'd up from too much misinformation, often in the

guise of " knowledge " . Certainly some people can take a

healthy idea and take it too such an extreme it might be

unhealthy, but usually bad health comes from following

conventional wisdom. Animals in nature do not have " knowledge "

in the sense we do, but yet these same animals do

not die from degerative diseases. Who's teaching them

what foods they need to eat? Oh, but if you have pet

dogs and cats they do tend to develop human like

diseases, even if they're eating human-designed

foods....duhhhh. You'll notice Kauguy gets angry because he's been fed a

lot of bullS't info for most of his life that he now

knows was false. I'm coming to the same conclusion at

how much " knowledge " in the past I was fed that just

turned out to be plain wrong. I think it's a good

exercise to do what you're doing to look for research

source documents, etc. But just always remain a little

sceptical about what companies fund studies that get

published...often they hire " scientists " to come up with the data

they want, rather than necessarily the real truth.

Research about products that can't be patented -real food

is perfect example - does not get much money for

research. Stepping down from my soap box now. Cheers,

April 19, 2001

Yes Mallon, your are right. But what keeps me

more open minded toward evidence that shows the

benifits of raw food is that there are so few raw foodists

in the world. (I know everyone is biased in their

opinions) and I would think that most research scientists

are cooked fooders. Yet they come up with compelling

evidence for the benifits of raw food. Also raw food is

not an industry, there are no big conglomerates

making money on this. Outside of a few books, there is

no product for sale. I doubt there are any raw

foodists hiring scientists to come up with data. I

really sympathize with Leafy Greens. We all have been

lied to. When I read something, I ask myself; who

benifits (monitarily) from this knowledge. The closer you

can come to saying " no one " the closer (I believe)

you come to the truth. Doug

April 20, 2001

Mallon, yes this is kinda

fun! " Mankind has been on this earth for many many thousands of

years, but our current " knowledge " of nutrition arguably

dates only a hundred years or so. One would think

with the " knowledge " we now have about nutrition that

we would be healthier, but the exact opposite is

true. " Yes people are not getting healthier they are getting

sicker but even mainstream knowledge is gradually

improving. The trend towards a more plant based lower fat

diet for example. People are sicker because they live

off processed junk not because they follow mainstream

nutritional knowledge. " True it is not 100%

" knowledge " or false-knowledge that is to blame, but also

partly also overrefining of foods. But most of the

people disseminating the " knowledge " will say that

processed foods are not the issue as long as they have x

percentage of vitamin A, y percentage of mineral B,

such-and-such ratio of carbs/protein/fat, etc. Because of

this " knowledge " , many people believe an " energy bar "

(basically a scaled down candy bar) is ideal food because it

has the right ratio of what they're told is

good. " Yes one of the fundamental floors in nutrition is

that the healthfulness of foods is equal to the

amounts of common nutrients, calcium, iron, folate ,

zinc, vit C, B vitamins etc. They don't take

into account: -That their is more to food than

this -The optimum amount of a nutrient etc could well be 10

tens the RDA and it is not just enough to meet the RDA

which is based on deficiency symptoms not otptimum

health effects -The effcts refined foods have on our

bodies even if they have nutrients frotified back into

them. -All the junk in health food stores is not worth it as

our health foods are raw fruits and

veggies Although I do think the % of calories from fat is

important. Atheroscleretic plaque of the arteries begins

forming in people teens and in you start eating this way

in say your 40's chances are you already have a

significant amount of heart disease. Raw fooders are not

immune. I still think raw fooders should limity fats for

numerous reasons, although the importance is no doubt less

than for junk food eaters. " I'll say again that

when people's intution fails them its because they're

F'd up from too much misinformation, often in the

guise of " knowledge " . " Mallon could you please

tell me what your diet is like and how long you have

been on it??? How do you know your diet is

balanced???

April 20, 2001

K,,, " We all have been lied

to. " Sorry to 'nitpick' but lied means to speak untruthfully

with intent to mislead or decieve so a person saying

something untuthful it is not a lie if they believe it it

is true. Blake

April 20, 2001

Blake; When the tobacco companies hire scientists

to do studys to show that smoking does not cause

cancer, and the american dairy councel " Suggests " that

milk prevents osteoporosis, this 'IS' an attempt to

mislead and decieve. It has been proven in court that the

tobacco companies new all along that smoking caused

cancer. The reason the American Dairy Councel only

'suggests' that milk 'may' prevent oseoporosis, implies that

they know better. These are only two examples, there

are hundreds. The fact that opposing studies exist

and are being intentionaly ignored, constitutes a

LIE. Maybe this dosen't happen in Austrailia. If not, make

room for me. Doug

April 20, 2001

Blake, The average person, in fact most

people, in fact 99.9......percent of people would say a

100% raw food diet is extreme, probably dangerous,

etc. I know I certainly thought it was odd until I

read some of the arguments in support of it. What

sticks out in my mind is that humans are THE ONLY animal

species (no disrespect to fundamentalists here) that

cooks it's food. The only one! So I think by

default we really should consider cooking food to be an

aberration rather than the norm. Many animals eat plant

foods only, and a number of animals eat meat. They

catch it themselves and eat it raw. So it stands

to reason if we're going to eat primarily raw, we

should eat things that are " safe " to eat without

cooking. Most plants are ok, but there a lot of

misunderstanding about meat. No one I know of would eat raw pork.

I never heard of anyone eating raw chicken, until

someone recently posted a link to raw meat eaters who

said it was ok (I wouldn't touch it). I occasionally

enjoy raw fish, and occasionally eat some beef or lamb

that is cooked rare or medium rare. My " diet "

(I don't like that term)- well what I normally eat

day-to-day is to shoot for at least 50% raw, meaning raw

fruits and vegetables. I buy fresh foods twice per week

and usually carry several servings of fresh fruits to

work and eat as often and as much as I get hungry. I

sometimes eat bread which is produced from a local bakery

only using fresh milled wheat, yeast, sea salt and

sometimes honey or pieces of fruit etc (if you're going to

consume bread, theirs is the best around and no

preservatives). Often for dinner I eat a huge salad, or sometimes

lightly cooked spinach or something. About 4 years ago I

reduced my meat intake about 90% - I probably only

consume it in 2 or 3 meals out of the week, if that

much. I can't answer your question of whether my diet is

balanced. That's somewhat a matter of conjecture (many

people can't agree on the " ideal balance " ) It's not an

issue I feel I need to worry about because I think if

you eat a lot of raw or a good mix of foods, it's

usually not an issue. I can tell you I think mine is

plenty well rounded and I seriously doubt I have any

deficiencies. I take some vitamin supplements, but want to cut

that to a minimum in conjunction with an increase in

fresh and raw foods. I also try and enjoy my fruits on

an empty stomach for optimal digestion and

assimilation. On the rare occasions I eat meat, I usually won't

eat rice or potatoes or bread or high starchy content

food at the same meal. I occasionally eat these

things, just not in the same meal with meat. I've spent a

few years experimenting on myself and found my

digestive system functions optimally by following simple

food combining rules - nothing complicated. I

don't consider myself a poster-child for optimal

eating, but I think I'm better than 95% of my fellow

American citizens. I don't have a strong opinion for

whether one " needs " to consume any meat for a " balanced "

meal, but I tend to think it's probably not necessary.

I eat a little just because I want to. I can also

tell you that at times after I've consumed more

alcohol than I should that I'd tend to short-term crave

meats or some foods not considered very healthy. When

I'm treating myself right, I tend to only want to eat

healthy foods. That's one reason for my belief that when

your system's pure and your mind is clear, your body

will tend to want healthy

things. Mallon I am inclined to think that folks eating a majority

or 100% raw are probably eating better than I am.

And I don't see any logical reason that diet would

cause any deficiency, other than the one or two things

(B12?) that nutritionists say is missing from vegetarian

diet. And because I've been fed so much misinformation

in the past, I'm not totally convinced even this is

a problem.

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