Falling off the vegan wagon (was Altered taste...)

[Guest guest]

Just curious wrote: " i really don't understand how being vegan, you've been

able to eat ice cream? Did you go vegan just for your health ? "

 

 

Hello, Just Curious. You didn't really read my message (something I was

recently loathe to admit) or maybe I didn't communicate clearly. I am

vegan, but I confessed to succumbing to a longstanding temptation. This is

not a part of my vegan regimen. Of course, having ice cream would not make

me a vegan. Falling off the wagon, however, makes me a human vegan.

 

And yes, I'm vegan for my health primarily. I used to do a fair bit of

" hobby " farming, meaning I raised animals just for us, as opposed to raising

them for market. Although I was a very gentle and compassionate

homesteader, the ultimate goal was always death. I just couldn't do it any

more. No matter how romantic and bucolic the scene was, and no matter how

connected I felt to the animals and they felt toward me, it all ends up the

same way. We had wonderful animals, that were picture perfect, healthy, and

friendly. We had goats that would follow us to the mailbox and back. We

had turkeys that followed behind me while I was on my riding mower so they

could grab up the bugs displaced by the action of the blades. I collected

warm eggs from friendly hens, I made cheeses and yogurts from my does, I

spun wool from my sheep. All this was great fun and romantic. But reality

was always predation and I was always the predator.

 

So, running an extremely close second to my primary reason of health - is

not being part of the predatory food cycle.

 

Rose

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your answer Rose. Sorry i did not sign, my name is f.

i understood perfectly well that you don't eat ice cream everyday. i've never

been vegan for my health, only for animals, & i could never fall off, because i

could not eat anything coming from the rape of a woman.

Have a good day.

f

-

Rose and Fred Lieberman

 

 

 

Just curious wrote: " i really don't understand how being vegan, you've been

able to eat ice cream? Did you go vegan just for your health ? "

 

 

Hello, Just Curious. You didn't really read my message (something I was

recently loathe to admit) or maybe I didn't communicate clearly. I am

vegan, but I confessed to succumbing to a longstanding temptation. This is

not a part of my vegan regimen. Of course, having ice cream would not make

me a vegan. Falling off the wagon, however, makes me a human vegan.

 

And yes, I'm vegan for my health primarily. I used to do a fair bit of

" hobby " farming, meaning I raised animals just for us, as opposed to raising

them for market. Although I was a very gentle and compassionate

homesteader, the ultimate goal was always death. I just couldn't do it any

more. No matter how romantic and bucolic the scene was, and no matter how

connected I felt to the animals and they felt toward me, it all ends up the

same way. We had wonderful animals, that were picture perfect, healthy, and

friendly. We had goats that would follow us to the mailbox and back. We

had turkeys that followed behind me while I was on my riding mower so they

could grab up the bugs displaced by the action of the blades. I collected

warm eggs from friendly hens, I made cheeses and yogurts from my does, I

spun wool from my sheep. All this was great fun and romantic. But reality

was always predation and I was always the predator.

 

So, running an extremely close second to my primary reason of health - is

not being part of the predatory food cycle.

 

Rose

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

f said: " ...i could never fall off, because i could not eat anything coming

from the rape of a woman. "

 

Could you please elaborate? The rape of a woman? I don't understand.

 

Thanks,

 

Rose

[Guest guest]

I think what " f " was trying to say is that taking milk from a cow is like

raping her, and it may look that way in today's dairy industry, but I don't

agree with this premise on principle. If we care for and protect cows, they give

milk happily. Cows always produce far more milk than calves require, and if we

love them and don't plan to murder them, then they are like our mother. And only

a savage kills and eats his/her own mother.

Also, a word of caution to " f " : don't say never. You're not perfect and the

thing that will keep you strongest in your conviction is your fear that may

someday do something you're ashamed of. Therefore, you're always mindful. When

you say, " ...I could never..., " you really open yourself up to getting a hard

karmic lesson on pride.

 

)

 

 

-

Rose and Fred Lieberman

rawfood

Monday, June 09, 2003 5:27 PM

Re: Falling off the vegan wagon (was Re: [Raw Food] Altered taste...)

 

 

f said: " ...i could never fall off, because i could not eat anything coming

from the rape of a woman. "

 

Could you please elaborate? The rape of a woman? I don't understand.

 

Thanks,

 

Rose

 

 

[Guest guest]

thanks for the advice

 

" Frank \ " Gopal\ " Cohen " <jack-ss wrote: I think what " f " was

trying to say is that taking milk from a cow is like raping her, and it may look

that way in today's dairy industry, but I don't agree with this premise on

principle. If we care for and protect cows, they give milk happily. Cows always

produce far more milk than calves require, and if we love them and don't plan to

murder them, then they are like our mother. And only a savage kills and eats

his/her own mother.

Also, a word of caution to " f " : don't say never. You're not perfect and the

thing that will keep you strongest in your conviction is your fear that may

someday do something you're ashamed of. Therefore, you're always mindful. When

you say, " ...I could never..., " you really open yourself up to getting a hard

karmic lesson on pride.

 

)

[Guest guest]

Hi, Frank. Thanks for the support. One of the things that always bothered

me when I was homesteading with my own livestock is the practicality of it

all.

 

Even though I (Fred, too, of course) was gentle and kind and treated them

very well, there was still death attached to it. I realized I couldn't get

milk without getting the cow (or goat) pregnant, and unless I was going to

raise a heifer calf to be another milk producer (another 100 lbs of milk a

day?!), or train a bull calf to work as an ox on the farm, I'd have to send

the calves to slaughter. So, no matter how gentle I was with mom, the

babies all ended up at the slaughterhouse. I just couldn't do it anymore.

 

When Fred and I started having financial problems we started thinking of

" escaping into the woods " and we began thinking of various scenarios that

were self-sustaining and relatively inexpensive to keep up. The only

logical scenario was a vegan one! (This was before we became vegans). No

livestock, no chickens, no eggs, no need for refrigeration. It was so

simple - vegan! All you need are seeds to grow your own greens and beans,

and the long enough growing season to field dry certain things.

 

But once you put an animal into the mix - even something seemingly simple as

a dozen hens -everything changes and the complexity becomes logorithmic!

With an animal, you not only need housing, but you need to buy or raise the

feed for that animal, manage the waste, etc., etc., etc. But when we

eliminate the livestock-based scenario, it becomes very straightforward.

 

And yet people who claim to be survivalists would never consider a vegan

lifestyle. They would put themselves in jeopardy and shorten their survival

time, rather than go vegan.

 

Well, I'm yammering...Just thought that was interesting.

 

Rose

[Guest guest]

Hi Rose,

I can certainly appreciate that point of view of wanting to escape. I've

done it in the past myself. But the description you gave of raising " livestock "

is very similar to what it is to raise a child. Would a " civilized " society

support the idea of slaughtering and eating children? Eventually, the

meat-eating society will. Because people aren't interested in reponsibilty in

such a society. They're interested in convenience.

In a responsible society, you could still have some animals and not to

slaughter them. You admitted yourself that a milk cow produces 100 lbs of milk a

day! So each family only needs one or two, and force breeding is completely

unnecessary.

In my opinion, slaughtering farm animals is the same thing as slaughtering

your 18 year old child because it costs $20,000 a year to send him/her to

college. Damn the expense. We love our children. And the cows and other animals

that are under our care are our children. That's why in the Bible, and every

other religious book in the world, it says that people have " dominion " over

animals. Dominion means " responsibility to protect. " It doesn't mean " exploit. "

 

Cheers,

Frank

[Guest guest]

Any time, my dear.

I wish you all the health and happiness in the world.

 

 

 

-

Patty Foley

rawfood

Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:33 AM

Re: Falling off the vegan wagon (was Re: [Raw Food] Altered taste...)

 

 

thanks for the advice

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rose,

 

Every year, cows is insemenated, so they have a calf, then they have milk. The

baby is taken away from his/her mother so the milk can be given to other

species... most of the milk goes to humans. To me, this is nothing but raping

these poor women. No matter if these individuals are in factory farms or nice

organic farms, we do not have the right to steal what is made for a child!

Imagine one second that some individuals had farms with human women?

Making them procreate, taking away the baby, making shoes or bags with his/her

skin then taking the woman's milk to feed their specie? Does it sound ethical?

Not to me! That is the reason why i could never eat anything coming from an

animal... what i meant by that sentence is that i will never do it willingly.

But even unwillingly, as i only eat fresh fruits, i would have difficulties not

seeing what i'm eating. i hope i've been helpful & that you understood my

thoughts better.

f

-

Rose and Fred Lieberman

 

 

 

f said: " ...i could never fall off, because i could not eat anything coming

from the rape of a woman. "

 

Could you please elaborate? The rape of a woman? I don't understand.

 

Thanks,

 

Rose

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Gosh, when you put it that way, I know why I've been a veg for 14

years!

Samantha

 

 

 

In a message dated 6/10/03 6:22:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

raw_vegan writes:

 

> Every year, cows is insemenated, so they have a calf, then they have milk.

> The baby is taken away from his/her mother so the milk can be given to other

> species... most of the milk goes to humans. To me, this is nothing but raping

> these poor women. No matter if these individuals are in factory farms or

> nice organic farms, we do not have the right to steal what is made for a

child!

> Imagine one second that some individuals had farms with human women?

> Making them procreate, taking away the baby, making shoes or bags with

> his/her skin then taking the woman's milk to feed their specie? Does it sound

> ethical? Not to me! That is the reason why i could never eat anything coming

from

> an animal... what i meant by that sentence is that i will never do it

> willingly. But even unwillingly, as i only eat fresh fruits, i would have

> difficulties not seeing what i'm eating. i hope i've been helpful & that you

> understood my thoughts better.

> f