all meat or all raw

September 15, 2003

I thing both comments are correct. Atkins is not the answer, but neither is

all raw veggies. A combination is much better. Eat plenty of good fats. The

efa's are lacking in the SAD way of life. Atkins does not stress nutrition.

Man was not meant to live on veggies alone or meat alone.

Best Regards, Robert Ratliff

<*> Join the " LowCarbingTheRightWay " for info on reversing HBP

and Diabetes with food. <*>

September 15, 2003

I thing both comments are correct. Atkins is not the answer, but neither

is

all raw veggies.

[RH]

All raw veggies is not the answer because we need carbohydrates for our

fuel. Meat however is not the answer. Unless of course you want to

increase your chance at having dimensia, heart disease, cancer,

osteoporosis, etc.

A combination is much better. Eat plenty of good fats.

[RH] All the good fats we need are abundant in green leafy vegetables.

If necessary you can eat some ground flax seeds, walnuts or hemp seeds

to get the omega 3 fats in the right ratio.

The

efa's are lacking in the SAD way of life. Atkins does not stress

nutrition.

Man was not meant to live on veggies alone or meat alone.

[RH]

Robert this is a Vegetarian Raw Food Board that espouses a Natural

Hygiene type of viewpoint. (Of course even that seems to be open to

interpretation these days.) Since your comments haven’t done anything to

support this lifestyle or this board, I’m putting you on moderation. We

are not promoting the consumption of cooked or raw meat on this board.

Roger

Best Regards, Robert Ratliff

<*> Join the " LowCarbingTheRightWay " for info on reversing

HBP

and Diabetes with food. <*>

September 15, 2003

rawfood , " ROBERT RATLIFF " <r_ratliff2003@c...>

wrote:

> I thing both comments are correct. Atkins is not the answer, but

neither is

> all raw veggies.

Atkins is certainly not the answer, but raw veggies is much closer if

the true answer is within our reach. In reality though, most people

on high/al raw diets each quite a substantial proportion of fruit.

>A combination is much better.

No. There is no nutritional need at all for any flesh products in

the human diet. In actual fact, the only animal product a human

should ever consume is his own mother's milk. All nutrients are

available in abundance from plants and it seems to be only the bad

habit of meat eating that prevents our gut from making its own B12 as

other animals' do. Life vegans have no trouble with B12 and no need

for supplementation. Animal product consumption leads to sickness,

misery, early death, environmental degradation, ecological imbalance

and starvation in LDCs. Any way you look at it, you can't defend it.

>Eat plenty of good fats.

No-one should eat 'plenty' of fat. There are more than enough fatty

acids in raw plants foods, including avocadoes, olives, nuts and

seeds. We only need tiny amounts of these things anyway. Fat should

be a minimal part of our diet.

>The efa's are lacking in the SAD way of life.

As they are in the high-protein diet. Meat does not provide them in

the same way seed oils etc do. Anyway, once the system is in

balance, one doesn't need to stress out about these thigns.

>Atkins does not stress nutrition.

Considering he's supposed to be a diet expert, he jolly well *ought*

to stress nutrition!

> Man was not meant to live on veggies alone or meat alone.

No, he was meant to live on raw fruit and veg. He was not designed

to eat meat as a simple comparison of the digestive systems of

species quickly reveals. Oh, and the fact that we have

canine/incisor teeth means nothing. So do other herbivorous

animals! You should see a camel's!!!

Interestingly, that Robbins' chapter I quoted from goes on to list

some of the many vegetarian and vegan athletes there are. If we

should have meat, then surely these people couldn't reach the phycial

peaks they do. They ought to be weak, sickly and crawling to an

early grave. If meat and animal foods were necessary to humans, I

should be long dead!!=)

Veganly yours,

Elisabeth=)

Not fully raw though.....!!=) (about 50-75% most of the time)

September 16, 2003

Elizabeth wrote:

>

> No. There is no nutritional need at all for any flesh products in

> the human diet.

There is. Many people cannot make enough DHA. Then there is b12 and

vitamin D (check out the 3 generation raw vegan study on

www.drbass.com.....deficiencies developed and serious problems ).

Then there is vitamin A (which many people cannot synthesize

effeciently from beta carotene.)

Then there is taurine, which can prevent multiple chem sensitivities.

Vegans have 1/4 less taurine in their bodies.

We have always eaten these nutrients as far back as we can tell. They

must fill a niche in our optimum health. There are no mistakes in

nature. All frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animals products. I got

really sick on the raw vegan diet for 3years. When I added about 5

egg yolks per day my health was restored after several months.

> habit of meat eating that prevents our gut from making its own B12

as

> other animals' do. >>

All frugivorous primates who have almost identical digestive systems

as us eat 2-10% animals products. None of them just rely on

intestinal bacteria for b12. They also eat dirt and feces...more b12

sources. 2-10% animals products does not disturb the flora of the

stomach. The diet is still 90% plant foods.

There has never been any indication that its even possible to get

enough b12 just from intestinal bacteria. Its just a theory. Look

what happened to Doug Graham, Dr. Bernar, and zuzsa!

<<Life vegans have no trouble with B12 and no need

> for supplementation.>>

I responded very well to b12 supplemation after 3 years 100% raw

vegan.

<< Animal product consumption leads to sickness,

> misery, early death, environmental degradation, ecological

imbalance

> and starvation in LDCs. Any way you look at it, you can't defend

it.>>

With that logic almost all animals innature including frugivorous

primates are eating things that " lead to sickness, misery, early

death, environmental degradation, ecological imbalance " Yet that is

clearly not the case. A chicken can lay almost an egg a day. It can

roam your backyard and eat kitchen scraps, bugs , vegetation. It fits

perfect into a permaculture set up.

Chickens weed and eat bugs and fertilize. Chickens lay eggs wether

fertilized or not. There is nothing unethical about eating them as

long as the chickens are treated well.

And adding eggs to my raw diet completely changed my life and made me

healthy again. I think that is good enough " defense " .

>

> >Eat plenty of good fats.

>

> No-one should eat 'plenty' of fat. There are more than enough

fatty

> acids in raw plants foods, including avocadoes, olives, nuts and

> seeds.

Plants do not have EPA and DHA. Many people are shown to have genes

that rewuire them to have an outside dietary dource of these

nutrients. My hair and skin were really dry on the raw vegan diet for

3 years. I know I had an efa deficiency.

.

>

> No, he was meant to live on raw fruit and veg. He was not designed

> to eat meat as a simple comparison of the digestive systems of

> species quickly reveals.

All the frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animal products (mostly

insects and eggs) and can process them easily and efficiently.

We are equipped just like them to digest these foods! In fact we have

the SHORTEST relative intestinal length of all the primates which

indicates we are more adapted to eating meat! (according to

comparative anatomy)

If we

> should have meat, then surely these people couldn't reach the

phycial

> peaks they do. They ought to be weak, sickly and crawling to an

> early grave. >>

I don't know about meat, but raw eggs yolks enabled me to gain muscle

for the first time in years and gave me a lot more stamina and

recovery power.

<< If meat and animal foods were necessary to humans, I

> should be long dead!!=)>>

I beleive some people can do alright without them, but that doesn't

necessarily mean they are at optimal health. I did poorly without

them and I am far from alone.

Pete

September 16, 2003

And Peter what were the remedies to those deficiencies in the study?

(Hint: It had nothing to do with animal products or egg yolks). I

doubt the little bugs clinging on to the lettuce leaf or berry adds

up to 10%, 2% I will buy though. The point I feel you are missing is

that that % was more " accidental than intentional " . They didn't go

out looking to eat bugs, they happened to be on what they were eating.

There are so many different stories on B12 that I don't think any one

knows either way for sure. Maybe we can get enough B12, from our own

bodies. I tend to not scrub my produce but just rinse it off, or if I

am not near clean water, eat it as is. Therefore getting a little

bugs, dirt and organic fertilizer.

No, but they do have ALA, (flaxseeds among others) which our bodies

can then use to make EPA and DHA.

> I believe some people can do all right without them <meat and

animal foods>, but that doesn't

> necessarily mean they are at optimal health. I did poorly without

> them and I am far from alone.

>

And I believe some people can do all right without meat and animal

products.

As has been your tendency you state only the smallest portion of

information that supports your ideas. You never give all the

information to allow intelligent people to make up their own minds

based on information given. You drive your eat raw egg yolks message

as far as you can.

Monte

September 16, 2003

Pete,

I don't know as much about it as I intend to find out but these

things I do know for sure:

-Vegans and even vegetarians have far lower incidence of the vast

majority of degenerative diseases, diabetes, cancers, digestive

disorders and so on.

-The point I made about B12 was about LIFE VEGANS ie, kids raised

vegan from birth. They are very healthy with fewer childhood helth

problems. Monte was right about the adult B12 issue - no-one can be

sure but it would appear that, if kids raised vegan have no trouble,

there must be some inate human ability to form it in the gut. Much

needs to be investigated.

-I can't help but feel that if we had a real need for animal

products, (and I mean *normal* need, not a bodily disfunction that

means our bodies are unable to formulate certain AAs etc - most can),

then there would be no life vegans, life vegetarians or even long-

term vegans, but there are! Uncomfortably healthy ones too. There

would be no vegan althletes, (tell Martina Navratilova that raw vegan

is unhealthy! She went on it to improve her athletic performance!!),

no vegan personalities as they wouldn't dare show their faces in

connection with the diet. They'd all be either too weak and sickly

to get out of bed in the morning. Plus, most of this list would be

dead too! If we need animal foods as a normal need, I'll go and

arrange my funeral at once!!!LOL!!

Best wishes all the same,

Elisabeth=)

September 16, 2003

In rawfood , " mavalkyrie " <mavalkyrie> wrote:

> And Peter what were the remedies to those deficiencies in the study?

> (Hint: It had nothing to do with animal products or egg yolks).

Its apparent you haven't even read that website or the FULL study of

the three generations of raw foodists. After adding raw milk cheese

these vegans recovered (at www.drbass.comdrb04.zip )

Dr. Bass wrote:

" Here is a more complete list of the alterations by Dr. Cursio (as

compared to earlier traditional vegetarian Natural Hygiene diets):

1. an increase of the green leafy vegetables

2. a decrease in the amount of fruit

3. the use of the fast at the first symptoms of acute disease

4. an introduction of raw eggs

5. an introduction of certain raw milk cheeses

6. an introduction of raw vegetable juices

7. an introduction of raw blended green salads "

Dr. Cursio also wrote:

" I cut down on the amount of fruit, without making any relative

increase in the green stuff (salads). Then, I finally found that

though there were slight improvements, they were not sufficient. So

then I figured there's got to be an additional factor here. There's

got to be, what, I had talked to Weston Price about it – he was one

of the men I spoke to. And, I said this is an X-factor that's

missing – I don't know what it was. Later on, you know this work done

on B 12 , I came to the conclusion that this perhaps was one of the

factors that could lead to this kind of pathology. "

Dr. Bass wrote:

" Then, due to my attraction to the philosophy of

veganism, I became a vegan raw fooder. I never felt as healthy on that

version of the diet and after five years on that version I lost the

use

of my feet and was nearly crippled. I had to crawl to the bathroom. I

had my blood tested and was B-12 anemic. I began taking B-12 and

eating

dairy. The B-12 healed my nerve problems, but I believe it was the

protein in the fermented dairy that healed my feet and muscle tissue.

(On the vegan version my muscle tissue seemed to be eating itself;

after adding the yogurt my muscle tissue healed itself.) "

> doubt the little bugs clinging on to the lettuce leaf or berry adds

> up to 10%, 2% I will buy though.

All frugivorous primates PURPOSELY eat insects and eggs in ADDITION

to the insects accidentatly eaten.

<<. Maybe we can get enough B12, from our own

> bodies.>>

Much evidence shows otherwise! Again look at the 3 generation raw

vegan study!

>

> No, but they do have ALA, (flaxseeds among others) which our bodies

> can then use to make EPA and DHA.>>

NOT everyone can make enough for optimal health. This has been proven

due to genetics with many people.

Pete

September 16, 2003

Pete,

I'm sorry your experience has not gone well for you.

You say below in regards to animal foods " some people

do alright without them " This makes me sad. Your

clearly missing something, we do more then alright. I

have gone from being tired and sickly, to a level of

health that I never imagined I would know. I have

always been an athlete, but was always more tired then

I needed to be by eating animal foods.

I am sure that you are missing something essential to

raw success. From my experience, most people who have

your type of problems, are not exercising enough. I

walk everyday for an hour and no less then two hours

on the weekends(very steep mountain hike) this is the

minimum needed for me to feel well. If I eat all raw

and do not exercise, I will not feel well at all, and

start to get imbalanced. I have twice hiked more

then 2000 miles at one time. Once on the Appalachian

trail, and then again on the Pacific Crest Trail.

Both times I had to hike day after day for months on

end. The health involved with this is unbelievable.

Your body becomes an eficient machine. Although I

would walk 30 miles per day for long stretches, my

body would not break down, in fact the opposite would

happen. On the other side of the spectrum is

inactivity. The body does not run well, and is prone

to imbalances. This is just an example of one of the

many things that people overlook.

I had a friend who was Vegan, and gave talks on her

lifestyle. She became imbalanced, and decided that

her diet was to blame. She never stopped to think

that her problems might have been caused by the fact

that she never exercised, ate minimal greens, and ate

cooked food, etc.... To me it was no surprise that she

got sick. Not a good example of healthy living.

God gave humans higher intelligence. This has

afforded us the ability to complicate simple concepts.

If you spend a lot of time in nature, these concepts

becomes easier to understand.

I am in the middle of the Mojave desert, eating

dehydrated apples and I realize that without the

apples, it would take a lot of walking and effort to

find food. Not at all impossible, but it would take a

lot of energy. Today we have lost sight of this. In

about an hour I will walk over to my fridge, and take

out some Kale and eat it. In nature I might have to

follow a stream for a mile until I found some good

grass to eat. All the time thinking that the grass

was the goal. In fact the energy expended to get the

grass was also largely responsible for feeling very

well indeed.

If you feel you need meat, please do, but please

understand that this forum is for people who are happy

being RAW.

Rufus

--- alreadyherenow <no_reply > wrote:

> Elizabeth wrote:

> >

> > No. There is no nutritional need at all for any

> flesh products in

> > the human diet.

>

> There is. Many people cannot make enough DHA. Then

> there is b12 and

> vitamin D (check out the 3 generation raw vegan

> study on

> www.drbass.com.....deficiencies developed and

> serious problems ).

> Then there is vitamin A (which many people cannot

> synthesize

> effeciently from beta carotene.)

> Then there is taurine, which can prevent multiple

> chem sensitivities.

> Vegans have 1/4 less taurine in their bodies.

> We have always eaten these nutrients as far back as

> we can tell. They

> must fill a niche in our optimum health. There are

> no mistakes in

> nature. All frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animals

> products. I got

> really sick on the raw vegan diet for 3years. When I

> added about 5

> egg yolks per day my health was restored after

> several months.

>

> > habit of meat eating that prevents our gut from

> making its own B12

> as

> > other animals' do. >>

>

> All frugivorous primates who have almost identical

> digestive systems

> as us eat 2-10% animals products. None of them just

> rely on

> intestinal bacteria for b12. They also eat dirt and

> feces...more b12

> sources. 2-10% animals products does not disturb the

> flora of the

> stomach. The diet is still 90% plant foods.

> There has never been any indication that its even

> possible to get

> enough b12 just from intestinal bacteria. Its just a

> theory. Look

> what happened to Doug Graham, Dr. Bernar, and zuzsa!

>

> <<Life vegans have no trouble with B12 and no need

> > for supplementation.>>

>

> I responded very well to b12 supplemation after 3

> years 100% raw

> vegan.

>

> << Animal product consumption leads to sickness,

> > misery, early death, environmental degradation,

> ecological

> imbalance

> > and starvation in LDCs. Any way you look at it,

> you can't defend

> it.>>

>

> With that logic almost all animals innature

> including frugivorous

> primates are eating things that " lead to sickness,

> misery, early

> death, environmental degradation, ecological

> imbalance " Yet that is

> clearly not the case. A chicken can lay almost an

> egg a day. It can

> roam your backyard and eat kitchen scraps, bugs ,

> vegetation. It fits

> perfect into a permaculture set up.

> Chickens weed and eat bugs and fertilize. Chickens

> lay eggs wether

> fertilized or not. There is nothing unethical about

> eating them as

> long as the chickens are treated well.

>

> And adding eggs to my raw diet completely changed my

> life and made me

> healthy again. I think that is good enough

> " defense " .

>

> >

> > >Eat plenty of good fats.

> >

> > No-one should eat 'plenty' of fat. There are more

> than enough

> fatty

> > acids in raw plants foods, including avocadoes,

> olives, nuts and

> > seeds.

>

> Plants do not have EPA and DHA. Many people are

> shown to have genes

> that rewuire them to have an outside dietary dource

> of these

> nutrients. My hair and skin were really dry on the

> raw vegan diet for

> 3 years. I know I had an efa deficiency.

>

> .

> >

> > No, he was meant to live on raw fruit and veg. He

> was not designed

> > to eat meat as a simple comparison of the

> digestive systems of

> > species quickly reveals.

>

> All the frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animal

> products (mostly

> insects and eggs) and can process them easily and

> efficiently.

> We are equipped just like them to digest these

> foods! In fact we have

> the SHORTEST relative intestinal length of all the

> primates which

> indicates we are more adapted to eating meat!

> (according to

> comparative anatomy)

>

> If we

> > should have meat, then surely these people

> couldn't reach the

> phycial

> > peaks they do. They ought to be weak, sickly and

> crawling to an

> > early grave. >>

>

> I don't know about meat, but raw eggs yolks enabled

> me to gain muscle

> for the first time in years and gave me a lot more

> stamina and

> recovery power.

>

> << If meat and animal foods were necessary to

> humans, I

> > should be long dead!!=)>>

>

> I beleive some people can do alright without them,

> but that doesn't

> necessarily mean they are at optimal health. I did

> poorly without

> them and I am far from alone.

>

> Pete

>

September 16, 2003

rawfood , Rufus Shaw <rufus10_99> wrote:

> Pete,

>

> I'm sorry your experience has not gone well for you.

No! Its gone great! I've never felt healthier in my life. It just was

a long hard road to figure out what my body needed.

> You say below in regards to animal foods " some people

> do alright without them " This makes me sad. Your

> clearly missing something, we do more then alright. I

> have gone from being tired and sickly, to a level of

> health that I never imagined I would know. >>

How long have you been 100% raw vegan? I felt great the first 6-8

months..better than ever before. Many people have this experience.

AND MANY people have the experience of developing similar problems

after years on the raw vegan diet. Sometimes it doesn't happen till

lmuch later. I've been talking to a guy whose practiced raw veganism

since 76. He has been developing problems over the past few years due

to deficiencies that he tested for. Now he's no longer vegan and

doing much better. He's still 100% raw like me.

I have

> always been an athlete, but was always more tired then

> I needed to be by eating animal foods.

>

> I am sure that you are missing something essential to

> raw success.

YES! I was missing whatever nutreints are in raw egg yolks that are

not in plants. DHA, EPA, taurine, b12, D, A, etc.

<<From my experience, most people who have

> your type of problems, are not exercising enough>>

I excerised a lot. In fact I work ouside for a living doing manual

labor. I also ran for a while. AFter awhile I could not run or do

much work . It would take me 1-2 weeks to recover from a work-out!. I

had to go on welfare because of this so called " detox " .

Now finally I can recover fast and work hard EVERY day if I need to.

<< This is just an example of one of the

> many things that people overlook.>>

I assure you I over-looked nothing in the 3 years I was raw vegan. I

tried it all trying to make it work.

>

> I had a friend who was Vegan, and gave talks on her

> lifestyle. She became imbalanced, and decided that

> her diet was to blame.>>

I don't know what your friend has to do with me. I KNOW my diet was

the problem because a simple change in my diet (adding 10% egg yolks)

completely reversed my health conditions and turned me into a new

reborn healthy, vigorous human.

<<> God gave humans higher intelligence. This has

> afforded us the ability to complicate simple concepts.

> If you spend a lot of time in nature, these concepts

> becomes easier to understand. >>

I live in nature....the middle of 4 acres of thick jungle. What

nature has taught me is that there are no animals even remotely

similar to us that are vegan. Animals don't have the luxury of being

that picky. In nature all frugivorous primates eat about 5% animals

products including insects and eggs. These are healthly foods with

very valuable nutrients...not posions.

>

> If you feel you need meat, please do, but please

> understand that this forum is for people who are happy

> being RAW.

I DO NOT EAT MEAT! I am a vegetarian. This is a vegetarian board

isn't it? I follow a Natural Hygene diet similar to the diets of the

famous Natural Hygenists Dr. Stanley Bass and Dr. Gian -Curiso .

I am also 100% raw and have been for over 4 years.

Pete

>

> --- alreadyherenow <no_reply > wrote:

> > Elizabeth wrote:

> > >

> > > No. There is no nutritional need at all for any

> > flesh products in

> > > the human diet.

> >

> > There is. Many people cannot make enough DHA. Then

> > there is b12 and

> > vitamin D (check out the 3 generation raw vegan

> > study on

> > www.drbass.com.....deficiencies developed and

> > serious problems ).

> > Then there is vitamin A (which many people cannot

> > synthesize

> > effeciently from beta carotene.)

> > Then there is taurine, which can prevent multiple

> > chem sensitivities.

> > Vegans have 1/4 less taurine in their bodies.

> > We have always eaten these nutrients as far back as

> > we can tell. They

> > must fill a niche in our optimum health. There are

> > no mistakes in

> > nature. All frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animals

> > products. I got

> > really sick on the raw vegan diet for 3years. When I

> > added about 5

> > egg yolks per day my health was restored after

> > several months.

> >

> > > habit of meat eating that prevents our gut from

> > making its own B12

> > as

> > > other animals' do. >>

> >

> > All frugivorous primates who have almost identical

> > digestive systems

> > as us eat 2-10% animals products. None of them just

> > rely on

> > intestinal bacteria for b12. They also eat dirt and

> > feces...more b12

> > sources. 2-10% animals products does not disturb the

> > flora of the

> > stomach. The diet is still 90% plant foods.

> > There has never been any indication that its even

> > possible to get

> > enough b12 just from intestinal bacteria. Its just a

> > theory. Look

> > what happened to Doug Graham, Dr. Bernar, and zuzsa!

> >

> > <<Life vegans have no trouble with B12 and no need

> > > for supplementation.>>

> >

> > I responded very well to b12 supplemation after 3

> > years 100% raw

> > vegan.

> >

> > << Animal product consumption leads to sickness,

> > > misery, early death, environmental degradation,

> > ecological

> > imbalance

> > > and starvation in LDCs. Any way you look at it,

> > you can't defend

> > it.>>

> >

> > With that logic almost all animals innature

> > including frugivorous

> > primates are eating things that " lead to sickness,

> > misery, early

> > death, environmental degradation, ecological

> > imbalance " Yet that is

> > clearly not the case. A chicken can lay almost an

> > egg a day. It can

> > roam your backyard and eat kitchen scraps, bugs ,

> > vegetation. It fits

> > perfect into a permaculture set up.

> > Chickens weed and eat bugs and fertilize. Chickens

> > lay eggs wether

> > fertilized or not. There is nothing unethical about

> > eating them as

> > long as the chickens are treated well.

> >

> > And adding eggs to my raw diet completely changed my

> > life and made me

> > healthy again. I think that is good enough

> > " defense " .

> >

> > >

> > > >Eat plenty of good fats.

> > >

> > > No-one should eat 'plenty' of fat. There are more

> > than enough

> > fatty

> > > acids in raw plants foods, including avocadoes,

> > olives, nuts and

> > > seeds.

> >

> > Plants do not have EPA and DHA. Many people are

> > shown to have genes

> > that rewuire them to have an outside dietary dource

> > of these

> > nutrients. My hair and skin were really dry on the

> > raw vegan diet for

> > 3 years. I know I had an efa deficiency.

> >

> > .

> > >

> > > No, he was meant to live on raw fruit and veg. He

> > was not designed

> > > to eat meat as a simple comparison of the

> > digestive systems of

> > > species quickly reveals.

> >

> > All the frugivorous primates eat 2-10% animal

> > products (mostly

> > insects and eggs) and can process them easily and

> > efficiently.

> > We are equipped just like them to digest these

> > foods! In fact we have

> > the SHORTEST relative intestinal length of all the

> > primates which

> > indicates we are more adapted to eating meat!

> > (according to

> > comparative anatomy)

> >

> > If we

> > > should have meat, then surely these people

> > couldn't reach the

> > phycial

> > > peaks they do. They ought to be weak, sickly and

> > crawling to an

> > > early grave. >>

> >

> > I don't know about meat, but raw eggs yolks enabled

> > me to gain muscle

> > for the first time in years and gave me a lot more

> > stamina and

> > recovery power.

> >

> > << If meat and animal foods were necessary to

> > humans, I

> > > should be long dead!!=)>>

> >

> > I beleive some people can do alright without them,

> > but that doesn't

> > necessarily mean they are at optimal health. I did

> > poorly without

> > them and I am far from alone.

> >

> > Pete

> >

>

September 16, 2003

rawfood , " Elisabeth Braun "

<elisabeth.braun@n...> wrote:

> Pete,

>

> I don't know as much about it as I intend to find out but these

> things I do know for sure:

>

> -Vegans and even vegetarians have far lower incidence of the vast

> majority of degenerative diseases, diabetes, cancers, digestive

> disorders and so on.

Those studies are about cooked diets. Cooked meat and pasterurized

milk have chemicals and altered molecules that are horrible for

health.

> -The point I made about B12 was about LIFE VEGANS ie, kids raised

> vegan from birth. They are very healthy with fewer childhood helth

> problems. Monte was right about the adult B12 issue - no-one can

be

> sure but it would appear that, if kids raised vegan have no

trouble,

> there must be some inate human ability to form it in the gut.

Did you see the 3 generations raw vegan study ar www.Dr.bass.com?

THose children developed b12 deficiecies. Sometime it takes

generations for deficiencies to show.

> -I can't help but feel that if we had a real need for animal

> products, (and I mean *normal* need, not a bodily disfunction that

> means our bodies are unable to formulate certain AAs etc - most

can),

> then there would be no life vegans, life vegetarians or even long-

> term vegans, but there are!

You are not understanding my point. Just because some people can do

alright on a vegan diet does not mean everyone can! People's bodies

are highly variable in the efficiencies in which they can manufacture

non-essential nutrients like DHA , EPA, taurine, cholesterol, etc.

The FACT is that many people like me developed serious deficiencies

even though we ate the exact same diets as other vegans.

Also, most long term vegans supplement. Dr. Grahman had to take b12

shots for instance.

Vegetarians? Sure! That is what I am .

> no vegan personalities as they wouldn't dare show their faces in

> connection with the diet. They'd all be either too weak and sickly

> to get out of bed in the morning. >>

Did you read when I said that some vegans seem to do alright? You are

polarizing your views.

<< Plus, most of this list would be

> dead too! If we need animal foods as a normal need,>>

SOME people do. SOME people have got really damaged on a vegan diet

and their health has been restored by adding animal products. This is

a FACT. Its a DEFINITE trend. Some people cannot synthesize enough

DHA, EPA, taurine, cholesterol, etc. Besides me, I personally know of

several and they ate very carefully planned vegan diets but still

developed deficiencies. Later their health was vastly improved by

adding some animal products. I know a guy in California that runs an

organic fruit farm and was a raw vegan for over 20 years. He ate the

best freshest food yet still developed deficiencies and is no longer

vegan but doing much better now.

The fact is that we have never been vegan as far as any evidence

suggests. Its no mystery why taking away nutrients that have been in

our diets for thousands of years may cause some people to develop

health problems.

Pete

September 16, 2003

Who hired you to come wading in here with naïve observation?

Peter

alreadyherenow [no_reply ]

16 September 2003 22:48

rawfood

[Raw Food] Re: all meat or all raw