FW: Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed Diatribe Against Veganism

[Guest guest]

hi everyone

here john coleman's response to the nazariah interview...

this is john's site but the link appears to be inactive

http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/forum.htm

 

norm )~

 

...... raw food, simply wonderful .....

---------------------------

 

Sat, 15 May 2004 09:07:32 +0100

" jsc " <jsc

Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed Diatribe Against Veganism

 

Dear friend,

 

Some of you may be aware that disinformation about the vegan diet is

being spread in a new article about " Brother Nazariah " . Nazariah has

taken some preliminary results from a very limited set of data in a UK

study on vegans and made some scary claims. The response below corrects

some of these distortions. The study is certainly enough material to

suggest that all vegans ensure an adequote supply of B12 and EFAs.

 

Furthermore, misleading claims are also being made about vegetarian

diets based on a 1982 paper, which again were limited and preliminary

results, that when added to the larger body of results for all

vegetarians, including Californian SDAs, showed that the diet was no

worse in terms of mortaility than a " health conscious " omnivorous diet.

It happens that due to factors that may be nothing to do with diet, some

vegetarians do better in some studies, and worse in others. That is why

we need collaborative studies to average out the results.

 

There are some notes by one of the researchers available at the IVU web

site www.ivu.org/oxveg/, which give an accurate view of the overall

results.

 

John

---

 

Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed Diatribe Against Veganism

 

This is an open response to the article on Brother Nazariah published by

Frederic Patenaude

http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html.

 

The article makes a few severe errors with the result of grossly

distorting research in relation to vegan and vegetarian diets.

 

Nazariah adopted a vegan diet, but failed to take B12 supplements as has

been recommended for many years by most authoritative vegan groups. As a

result, presumably of ignorance or a false belief about the need to

supplement, he developed serious medical complications. He has now

introduced dairy products into his diet to improve his nutritional

status.

 

I have contacted one of the researchers involved in the studies that

Nazariah speaks of and who is familiar with the literature in this area.

 

According to Nazariah the biggest study on the true mortality of

vegetarians and vegans showed poor results for vegans. What he fails to

mention is that that collaborative analysis presented results for vegans

on only 68 deaths among 753 persons, so that the findings of no

difference in mortality between vegans and meat eaters is far from

difinitive.

 

Nazariah also asserts that vegans actually live less long than many

other dietary categories and have a high incidence of degenerative brain

diseases. There is no good evidence for either of these assertions. He

further claims that certain deficiencies in the diet, even in the

cooked-vegan diet, cause vegans to have more of certain serious

diseases, especially brain-related ones, because it's " all having to do

with the central nervous system " . As with mortality, there are no

definitive data on morbidity in vegans.

 

According to the researcher:

 

In our " Mortality in British vegetarians " paper we reported

a significantly higher mortality from mental & neurological diseases

in vegetarians compared with non-vegetarians in the Oxford Vegetarian

Study. However, this finding was based on just 36 deaths, and there

was no such excess in the Health Food Shoppers Study, results from

which were also published in this paper.

 

It seems that this finding has been siezed upon and garbled into

nonsense. Nazariah mentions an article in Vegetarian Times at around

1990 reporting higher mortality in vegans. To the researchers knowledge,

there were no studies of mortality in Western vegans (or in any vegans

for that matter) prior to 1990, or indeed prior to the collaborative

analysis published in 1999.

 

Brother Nazariah made a mistake in not taking B12, that is all. If the

kind of horror story being painted were really happening, it would have

been spotted by now.

 

John Coleman

 

---

Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetarians: detailed findings from

a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies.

Key TJ, Fraser GE, Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Beral V, Reeves G, Burr

ML, Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R, Kuzma JW, Mann J, McPherson K.

American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1999; 70(suppl): 516S-524S.

 

Appleby PN, Key TJ, Thorogood M, Burr ML, Mann J.

Mortality in British vegetarians.

Public Health Nutrition 2002; 5: 29-36.

[Guest guest]

<<< " Brother Nazariah made a mistake in not taking B12, that is all " >>>

 

John's mistake is in laboring under the same false notion as the rest of

the cooked vegan community, that we have to eat something artificial to make

up for the stuff we'd be getting from meat if we were eating it. This

presupposes that humans have a need for meat, or animal protein of any sort

for that matter, which is not demonstrated by the evidence.

Since disease always has a cause and diseases related to true dietary

nutrient deficiencies are extremely rare (as evidenced by the fact that

people who are motivated to fast by symptoms they suspect are

deficiency-related are invariably relieved of their symptoms through

fasting), it is obvious and proper to conclude that Nazariah was making big

mistakes in his diet and lifestyle choices prior to becoming ill, and that

this is what caused his illness.

Thanks for posting this, Norm. It's nice to see that others are

questioning Nazariah's absurd claims. I'm going to send some info on B12 to

John, with the hopes that I can convince him that his worries about it are

unfounded.

Nora

 

 

kelpguy wrote:

 

> hi everyone

> here john coleman's response to the nazariah interview...

> this is john's site but the link appears to be inactive

> http://venus.nildram.co.uk/veganmc/forum.htm

>

> norm )~

>

> ..... raw food, simply wonderful .....

> ---------------------------

>

> Sat, 15 May 2004 09:07:32 +0100

> " jsc " <jsc

> Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed Diatribe Against Veganism

>

> Dear friend,

>

> Some of you may be aware that disinformation about the vegan diet is

> being spread in a new article about " Brother Nazariah " . Nazariah has

> taken some preliminary results from a very limited set of data in a UK

> study on vegans and made some scary claims. The response below corrects

> some of these distortions. The study is certainly enough material to

> suggest that all vegans ensure an adequote supply of B12 and EFAs.

>

> Furthermore, misleading claims are also being made about vegetarian

> diets based on a 1982 paper, which again were limited and preliminary

> results, that when added to the larger body of results for all

> vegetarians, including Californian SDAs, showed that the diet was no

> worse in terms of mortaility than a " health conscious " omnivorous diet.

> It happens that due to factors that may be nothing to do with diet, some

> vegetarians do better in some studies, and worse in others. That is why

> we need collaborative studies to average out the results.

>

> There are some notes by one of the researchers available at the IVU web

> site www.ivu.org/oxveg/, which give an accurate view of the overall

> results.

>

> John

> ---

>

> Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed Diatribe Against Veganism

>

> This is an open response to the article on Brother Nazariah published by

> Frederic Patenaude

> http://www.fredericpatenaude.com/interview-nazariah.html.

>

> The article makes a few severe errors with the result of grossly

> distorting research in relation to vegan and vegetarian diets.

>

> Nazariah adopted a vegan diet, but failed to take B12 supplements as has

> been recommended for many years by most authoritative vegan groups. As a

> result, presumably of ignorance or a false belief about the need to

> supplement, he developed serious medical complications. He has now

> introduced dairy products into his diet to improve his nutritional

> status.

>

> I have contacted one of the researchers involved in the studies that

> Nazariah speaks of and who is familiar with the literature in this area.

>

> According to Nazariah the biggest study on the true mortality of

> vegetarians and vegans showed poor results for vegans. What he fails to

> mention is that that collaborative analysis presented results for vegans

> on only 68 deaths among 753 persons, so that the findings of no

> difference in mortality between vegans and meat eaters is far from

> difinitive.

>

> Nazariah also asserts that vegans actually live less long than many

> other dietary categories and have a high incidence of degenerative brain

> diseases. There is no good evidence for either of these assertions. He

> further claims that certain deficiencies in the diet, even in the

> cooked-vegan diet, cause vegans to have more of certain serious

> diseases, especially brain-related ones, because it's " all having to do

> with the central nervous system " . As with mortality, there are no

> definitive data on morbidity in vegans.

>

> According to the researcher:

>

> In our " Mortality in British vegetarians " paper we reported

> a significantly higher mortality from mental & neurological diseases

> in vegetarians compared with non-vegetarians in the Oxford Vegetarian

> Study. However, this finding was based on just 36 deaths, and there

> was no such excess in the Health Food Shoppers Study, results from

> which were also published in this paper.

>

> It seems that this finding has been siezed upon and garbled into

> nonsense. Nazariah mentions an article in Vegetarian Times at around

> 1990 reporting higher mortality in vegans. To the researchers knowledge,

> there were no studies of mortality in Western vegans (or in any vegans

> for that matter) prior to 1990, or indeed prior to the collaborative

> analysis published in 1999.

>

> Brother Nazariah made a mistake in not taking B12, that is all. If the

> kind of horror story being painted were really happening, it would have

> been spotted by now.

>

> John Coleman

>

> ---

> Mortality in vegetarians and non-vegetarians: detailed findings from

> a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies.

> Key TJ, Fraser GE, Thorogood M, Appleby PN, Beral V, Reeves G, Burr

> ML, Chang-Claude J, Frentzel-Beyme R, Kuzma JW, Mann J, McPherson K.

> American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1999; 70(suppl): 516S-524S.

>

> Appleby PN, Key TJ, Thorogood M, Burr ML, Mann J.

> Mortality in British vegetarians.

> Public Health Nutrition 2002; 5: 29-36.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Norm,

 

Thanks for the info!

 

Jeff

 

>here john coleman's response to the nazariah interview...

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Since disease always has a cause and diseases related to true dietary

>nutrient deficiencies are extremely rare (as evidenced by the fact that

>people who are motivated to fast by symptoms they suspect are

>deficiency-related are invariably relieved of their symptoms through

>fasting),

 

I have read of people overcoming supposed B12 deficiencies by

fasting. Extended water fasting actually resulted in increased b12

levels. This supports the idea that our bodies will create the B12 we

need. But, what about during the non-fasting times, when we may eat

horribly, even poorly for raw vegan standards?

 

>it is obvious and proper to conclude that Nazariah was making big

>mistakes in his diet and lifestyle choices prior to becoming ill, and that

>this is what caused his illness.

 

While certainly not ideal, if someone is making dietary mistakes,

then the taking of a supplement, such as B12 may avoid certain

disease or " symptoms " .

 

Nora (and others), what is your take on people who take this middle

path of heading in the right dietary directions (moving away from the

SAD diet), but making dietary " mistakes " . If they choose that path of

making those mistakes and not following an ideal diet, should a

supplement, such as B12, be taken to avoid a related disease symptom?

I realize that takes us back to the idea that we may not actually

have " deficiencies " as certain tests suggest and that the tests may

not be accurate and the nutrient levels recommended may be

inaccurate, etc. etc. etc.

 

I realize there are many of us on this list who are still not on a

perfect or ideal diet and still are interested in the B12 issue and

whether or not to supplement. I also know that many choose to " play

it safe " and take an occasional B12.

 

Anyway, I'm curious of your thoughts on this middle ground of

non-ideal diet which may create " deficiencies " because of either

missing nutrients, or combining of foods and poor assimilation.

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much, Norm, for posting John Coleman's rebuttal and the

research sources for Nazariah's claims.

 

I want to point out something else that seemed to me inconsistent in

the interview, regardless of one's views on taking supplements. After

raising the specter of DHA deficiency in vegans - doddering vegans in

nursing homes (these are presumably the ones that survive the B12-

deficiency-induced early heart failure) - he goes on to give the

impression that this (and all deficiencies not yet known) are taken

care of by eating a little dairy and eggs. But... there isn't usually

any DHA in dairy or eggs, is there?

 

-rho

[Guest guest]

>But... there isn't usually

> any DHA in dairy or eggs, is there?

 

Actually, eggs have a lot of DHA, especially if the hens are fed with flaxseed..

[Guest guest]

RawSeattle , " bleucadenza " <bleucadenza>

wrote:

> >But... there isn't usually

> > any DHA in dairy or eggs, is there?

>

> Actually, eggs have a lot of DHA, especially if the hens are fed

with flaxseed..

 

From what I've read, I'd say not " especially if " , but " only if " ...

Regular eggs have around 18mg DHA per egg, vs 150mg or way higher

I've seen quoted for " designer " eggs. (And before anyone mentions it,

yes, people are also producing " designer " cow milk enhanced with DHA

by feeding cows herring.)

 

It's interesting that this whole fear and industry around long-chain

fatty acid supplementation is not being driven by vegetarians, it's

mainstream. Is this some kind of milestone, I wonder, that people

eating a mainstream " healthy, varied diet " are beginning to

acknowledge that it is inadequate?

 

-rho