FW: Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed DiatribeAgainst Veganism

May 15, 2004

Hi, Jeff

It's Robert here, responding a bit on your questions.

Let's say a person was in the habit of:

a. walking in front of cars

b. jumping off 2 story buildings

c. eating dirt

d. sucking on tailpipes

e. drinking swamp water

f. partying all night

g. running marathons daily

h. hitting themselves with a hammer

i. etc.

and

1. taking country walks

2. eating fresh berries and other fruits

3. sleeping regular hours

4. resting when tired

5. only eating when hungry

6. drinking good water, when thirsty

7. resting when feeling ill (fasting)

8. getting reasonable sunshine

9. following other obvious needs of natural life

The top list shows harm-inducing habits, the bottom list shows health-producing

habits.

Can one expect to have total health, total freedom from harm, if they do not

stop doing ALL of the habits on the harm-inducing list? Will it help to give

the person who eats dirt an extract from a carrot (or other substance(s)) to

alleviate the symptoms they acquire from eating dirt, and/or all the symptoms

they get from following all the other harm-inducing habits a to i?

If a person stops 6 of the harm inducing habits in the first list, or if a

person picks up a few of the habits on the health list, will nature, then, out

of admiration, good will, appreciation, supportiveness, or other " loving "

support, decide that the person should not have to suffer the consequences

stemming from the 3 other harm-inducing habits that person continues to

follow? I.e, will nature change her laws in some other matters, such as

gravity or poisoning, just because a person does well in one or more other

respects? Or does nature just steadily maintain ALL her laws, no matter how

many good habits a person has or picks up?

Is it sensible for a person to try and avoid the effects of their bad habit(s)

by trying to take something that doesn't remove their bad habit(s)?

Or is it more sensible to remove all bad habits so that the effects of the bad

habits will not occur?

A person who fasts and who gets over the symptoms that indicated a supposed

deficiency (i.e., a person who suddenly becomes b12 sufficient after fasting),

is showing that his/her symptoms were actually caused by the group of bad

habits which that person ceased to follow on the fast. The positive results of

the fast prove that a so-called b12 deficiency was never the cause of the

problem. The cause of the problem was, usually, the numerous very poor dietary

habits (including wrong foods, eating too much, eating frozen foods, eating

cooked foods, eating too late, eating when not hungry, etc.) that the person

had.

The eating of a dietary supplement like b12 while still engaging in bad habits

will only send the message to others (and themselves) that nature's laws can

somehow be sidestepped or overstepped. If we do not recognize and follow

natural laws, we can only develop habits of self-delusion, group-delusion,

societal-delusion, and civilizational-delusion. What types of behaviour do we

all want to promote? Health from following nature's sensibilities, or

delusion?

Humans can only expect to remain successful if they work WITH nature's laws.

For example, we can fly airplanes because we have come to understand and

respect the laws of gravity and the laws of fluid dynamics (air flow). Thusly

we build structures that obey these laws, so that these structures can fly.

The airplane does not overstep, sidestep, or break any laws. The airplane

obeys all of nature's laws, and that is why it can fly.

A person who takes a b12 supplement is not obeying any of nature's laws. In

fact, they are trying to break all of nature's laws. And so that person can

only be unsuccessful in the long term. Only self-deception from a short-term

bias can make it appear that the person is successful. The short-term success

that may come from b12 supplementing is comparable to the " flying " success that

one might claim after jumping off a cliff. The short term delusional claims of

" flying " made by the unfortunate cliff jumper will become apparent a little

later when the long term effects of the " flying " reveal themselves.

Cooked, denatured, processed food has been made into unwhole food. Unwholeness

automatically brings with it deficiency. A processed food has uncountable and

infinite deficiencies. Will correcting only ONE ASSUMED and UNPROVEN

deficiency somehow negate all the effects that will come from the other

deficiencies in the unwhole food? Can nature be overstepped? When we, as normal

parts of nature, follow nature's laws for long and short term success, we

remain in existence. To the extent that we do not follow nature's ways or laws

is the extent to which we remove ourselves from nature and thus from

existence.

Our bodies evidently need b12. Without b12, we could not be alive, just as we

could not live without a heart. Everything that is in us is part of a whole

system, where all parts are a necessary part of the system. If we lack any

chemical that is necessary for life, we automatically and quickly die. That a

person is alive is demonstrative of the fact they have b12 in them. So the

matter becomes whether they have too much or too little b12. With this

imbalance will necessarily come an imbalance of other nutrients, or chemicals.

This is because b12 does exist nor act alone in the human body. If it acted or

existed alone, our body would have no need for it, since our body's life

depends on the symbiotic and synergistic characteristics of all substances that

are within it. To sustain balanced nutrient levels in our bodies, nature

demands that we limit ourselves to eating balanced foods that are truly normal

to us. Only by this means can the human body create and maintain its balanced

internal state. The ingestion of imbalanced foods can only lead to other

imbalances, even as the imbalanced foods may appear to be beneficial in the

short term. The short term success can only appear because of the body's

ability to dip into reserve balances, but as it does so, it loses its reserves,

and thus its ability to balance. Those foods are that allow our bodies to

remain balanced in both reserves and overall state, are known as WHOLE foods,

rich in nutrients, freshness, ripeness, naturalness, and

appropriate-for-humanness. B12 supplements are inherently UNWHOLE. Any " good "

effect they have can only be short term and illusionary.

Nature succeeds as a wholeness made of symbiotic parts, from the micro to the

macro, all intertwined. This is an observable Law of Life. Symbiotic parts

cannot exist on their own. We can rip the wholeness apart, but in doing so we

lose the wholeness that is the life. For human wholeness, or health, to occur,

nature needs human parts to be created together in a whole form by a whole

body, every step of the way, eternally. If this was not the case, flowers

could be made from piling together dirt, water, and some organic petroleum

molecules. For long term life, an organism needs to secure from its environment

whole foods that are appropriate for itself. It's only other option is to

relegate itself to the inevitable extinction list.

Hope that added some understanding, Robert

Jeff Rogers wrote:

> > Since disease always has a cause and diseases related to true dietary

> >nutrient deficiencies are extremely rare (as evidenced by the fact that

> >people who are motivated to fast by symptoms they suspect are

> >deficiency-related are invariably relieved of their symptoms through

> >fasting),

>

> I have read of people overcoming supposed B12 deficiencies by

> fasting. Extended water fasting actually resulted in increased b12

> levels. This supports the idea that our bodies will create the B12 we

> need. But, what about during the non-fasting times, when we may eat

> horribly, even poorly for raw vegan standards?

>

> >it is obvious and proper to conclude that Nazariah was making big

> >mistakes in his diet and lifestyle choices prior to becoming ill, and that

> >this is what caused his illness.

>

> While certainly not ideal, if someone is making dietary mistakes,

> then the taking of a supplement, such as B12 may avoid certain

> disease or " symptoms " .

>

> Nora (and others), what is your take on people who take this middle

> path of heading in the right dietary directions (moving away from the

> SAD diet), but making dietary " mistakes " . If they choose that path of

> making those mistakes and not following an ideal diet, should a

> supplement, such as B12, be taken to avoid a related disease symptom?

> I realize that takes us back to the idea that we may not actually

> have " deficiencies " as certain tests suggest and that the tests may

> not be accurate and the nutrient levels recommended may be

> inaccurate, etc. etc. etc.

>

> I realize there are many of us on this list who are still not on a

> perfect or ideal diet and still are interested in the B12 issue and

> whether or not to supplement. I also know that many choose to " play

> it safe " and take an occasional B12.

>

> Anyway, I'm curious of your thoughts on this middle ground of

> non-ideal diet which may create " deficiencies " because of either

> missing nutrients, or combining of foods and poor assimilation.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Jeff

>

May 15, 2004

Robert,

Soooo... what you're saying is, if someone chooses to eat a non-ideal

diet and refuses to eat an ideal diet, they should or should not take

the un-whole supplement to temporarily avoid problems with a

deficiency which his/her diet choices create?

Jeff

PS: Good swamp water is loaded with vitamins, minerals and enzymes

and hitting oneself with a hammer may actually transfer iron to the

individual through physical contact. If they are mineral deficient

the action may actually be a benefit!

May 17, 2004

Nora,

>A person who takes a b12 supplement is not obeying any of nature's laws.

Holy smoke, they're not obeying even ONE dadblasted law? Who woulda thunk that

taking a little B12 pill would cause somebody to be the worst lawbreaker on the

planet? (Just curious, did anybody ever accuse you of being a guilt tripper?

)

>In fact, they are trying to break all of nature's laws.

That's right. And don't nobody mess with me, cuz I'm The Meanest, Baddest

Lawbreaker Alive. And if I can't break all nature's laws with my B12 pill, just

watch out, I might do something really radical! I might just, just. . . .

I might just eat a B6!

Mark

May 17, 2004

Thanks for the laugh, Mark.

Really! Some folks just take things WAY too seriously.

Martha

May 17, 2004

Hi Mark,

Just fyi, Robert wrote the post, not me. He's not a member of the list and

he typed it from my computer so it came across with my name, but he did

introduce himself at the beginning and signed it at the end.

Nora

Mark Hovila wrote:

> Nora,

>

> >A person who takes a b12 supplement is not obeying any of nature's laws.

>

> Holy smoke, they're not obeying even ONE dadblasted law? Who woulda thunk

that taking a little B12 pill would cause somebody to be the worst lawbreaker on

the planet? (Just curious, did anybody ever accuse you of being a guilt

tripper? )

>

> >In fact, they are trying to break all of nature's laws.

>

> That's right. And don't nobody mess with me, cuz I'm The Meanest, Baddest

Lawbreaker Alive. And if I can't break all nature's laws with my B12 pill, just

watch out, I might do something really radical! I might just, just. . . .

>

> I might just eat a B6!

>

> Mark

>

May 17, 2004

Nora,

Ah, sorry about that. I hope you'll pass it on to Robert.

Mark

-

Nora Lenz

RawSeattle

Sunday, May 16, 2004 7:48 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] FW: Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed DiatribeAgainst

Veganism

Hi Mark,

Just fyi, Robert wrote the post, not me. He's not a member of the list

and he typed it from my computer so it came across with my name, but he did

introduce himself at the beginning and signed it at the end.

Nora

May 17, 2004

> Just fyi, Robert wrote the post, not me.

nora,please don't do " this "

He's

> not a member of the list and he typed it from my

> computer so it came across with my name, but he did

> introduce himself at the beginning and signed it at

> the end.

> Nora,

oh, nn oo rr a ! Please!!!!

>

SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

http://promo./sbc/

May 17, 2004

Mark,

Out of courtesy please restrain yourself from exageration or sarcasm. This list

serves best when the information is honest and accurate.

Nickolas Hein

Morgantown WV

-

Mark Hovila

RawSeattle

Sunday, May 16, 2004 8:30 PM

Re: [RawSeattle] FW: Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed DiatribeAgainst

Veganism

Nora,

>A person who takes a b12 supplement is not obeying any of nature's laws.

Holy smoke, they're not obeying even ONE dadblasted law? Who woulda thunk

that taking a little B12 pill would cause somebody to be the worst lawbreaker on

the planet? (Just curious, did anybody ever accuse you of being a guilt

tripper? )

>In fact, they are trying to break all of nature's laws.

That's right. And don't nobody mess with me, cuz I'm The Meanest, Baddest

Lawbreaker Alive. And if I can't break all nature's laws with my B12 pill, just

watch out, I might do something really radical! I might just, just. . . .

I might just eat a B6!

Mark

May 17, 2004

Hi Attila, glad you enjoyed Robert's fabulous post. I see now that I may

have implied that I didn't agree with it. Thanks for pointing out my

mistake, Attila.

Nora

P.S. Robert has read all the replies, but hasn't had time or opportunity to

respond.

attila madaras wrote:

> > Just fyi, Robert wrote the post, not me.

>

> nora,please don't do " this "

>

> He's

> > not a member of the list and he typed it from my

> > computer so it came across with my name, but he did

> > introduce himself at the beginning and signed it at

> > the end.

> > Nora,

>

> oh, nn oo rr a ! Please!!!!

> >

>

> SBC - Internet access at a great low price.

> http://promo./sbc/

>

May 17, 2004

Sarcasm, etc. can hurt people, even if that was not the intent.

Sarcasm and condescension, etc. can also discourage members from

posting. We have many members on this list yet to post. I'd like them

to feel this is positive environment for sharing their ideas and

opinions, without the threat of ridicule.

Jeff

>Out of courtesy please restrain yourself from exageration or

>sarcasm. This list serves best when the information is honest and

>accurate.

May 17, 2004

>> Nature succeeds as a wholeness...

Sometimes nature wholeness will bring you to death. Sometimes it

doesn't rain for several weeks, and plants in my garden are dying.

Yes, they have everything soil, air, minerals, just one element is

missing, it's water. So i water the plants to keep them alive, giving

them that one element they need.

Sometimes we can't benefit from nature wholeness because we are not

wild anymore. If you don't take shower and don't wash your hands and

vegetables you eat, then you will not be b12 deficient. But living in

21 century we want to take shower every day and wash our food. And

since it washes away bacteria which were creating b-12, then we

suffer from b-12 deficiency. Our kids do not climb the fruit trees

and do not eat berries and flowers they found like we did in our

childhood. I remember myself constantly eating something while

outside. We were puling grass and ate the end which is closer to the

root because it was soft and sweet, we were eating ants for their

sour taste, we were eating dill and dandelions, and many many other

stuff we could find. Now-day kids prefer to spend their time at the

computers, and taking b12 they are missing is certainly better than

nothing.

RawSeattle , Nora Lenz <nmlenz@s...> wrote:

> Hi, Jeff

>

> It's Robert here, responding a bit on your questions.

>

> Let's say a person was in the habit of:

>

> a. walking in front of cars

> b. jumping off 2 story buildings

> c. eating dirt

> d. sucking on tailpipes

> e. drinking swamp water

> f. partying all night

> g. running marathons daily

> h. hitting themselves with a hammer

> i. etc.

>

> and

>

> 1. taking country walks

> 2. eating fresh berries and other fruits

> 3. sleeping regular hours

> 4. resting when tired

> 5. only eating when hungry

> 6. drinking good water, when thirsty

> 7. resting when feeling ill (fasting)

> 8. getting reasonable sunshine

> 9. following other obvious needs of natural life

>

May 17, 2004

Jeff and Nick,

I don't consider my post to have been sarcastic, condescending or ridiculing. I

consider it satire, an attempt to illuminate a point through humor. Certainly

it is less condescending than saying that concerns about B12 are " nonsensical "

or that anybody who takes B12 is violating all of nature's laws. B12 ought to

be able to be discussed without laying a guilt trip on somebody who takes it, or

who is thinking about taking it.

Mark

Sarcasm, etc. can hurt people, even if that was not the intent.

Sarcasm and condescension, etc. can also discourage members from

posting. We have many members on this list yet to post. I'd like them

to feel this is positive environment for sharing their ideas and

opinions, without the threat of ridicule.

Jeff

>Out of courtesy please restrain yourself from exageration or

>sarcasm. This list serves best when the information is honest and

>accurate.

May 17, 2004

>> an attempt to illuminate a point through humor.

Robert's post was very negative, I even say aggressive, similar to all Nora's

messages. He repeated several times like mantra the thought that 'any " good "

effect B-12 have can only be short term and illusionary'. So replying with

humor, I think, was the best way to reply. I liked the humor, thank you Mark :-)

Mark Hovila <hovila wrote:Jeff and Nick,

I don't consider my post to have been sarcastic, condescending or ridiculing. I

consider it satire, an attempt to illuminate a point through humor. Certainly

it is less condescending than saying that concerns about B12 are " nonsensical "

or that anybody who takes B12 is violating all of nature's laws. B12 ought to

be able to be discussed without laying a guilt trip on somebody who takes it, or

who is thinking about taking it.

Mark

Sarcasm, etc. can hurt people, even if that was not the intent.

Sarcasm and condescension, etc. can also discourage members from

posting. We have many members on this list yet to post. I'd like them

to feel this is positive environment for sharing their ideas and

opinions, without the threat of ridicule.

Jeff

>Out of courtesy please restrain yourself from exageration or

>sarcasm. This list serves best when the information is honest and

>accurate.

May 17, 2004

Mark,

Then disregard my first sentence but consider the second. If you know how much

B vitamin is needed, where/how to get it and how to know when you have enough,

that would certainly be welcome information.

I don't mean to be harsh - I've raised my kids with insistence that they say

things that are kind, thoughtful and helpful and if they can't think of anything

they should wait until they do. You don't have to do anything you don't want

to, this list will better for everyone if you do though.

Peace, love and Thanks,

Nick

> I don't consider my post to have been sarcastic, condescending or ridiculing.

I consider it satire, an attempt to illuminate a point through humor. Certainly

it is less condescending than saying that concerns about B12 are " nonsensical "

or that anybody who takes B12 is violating all of nature's laws. B12 ought to

be able to be discussed without laying a guilt trip on somebody who takes it, or

who is thinking about taking it.

>

> Mark

>

This list serves best when the information is honest and accurate.

May 17, 2004

Nick,

Yes, good advice, I give it to my kids also. One well known problem of email is

that there is no possibility of communicating tone, body language, facial

expressions, etc., so that it is often unclear if one is being a jerk or just

trying to lighten things up. I thought the humor approach would be gentler than

direct argument, but I can see how some would see it otherwise.

And I have no particular info to offer about B12. I like to read both

viewpoints and haven't taken a firm position on it yet. Still, to be on the

safe side I take an occasioal B12.

Mark

-

nick.hein

RawSeattle

Monday, May 17, 2004 11:29 AM

Re: Re: [RawSeattle] FW: Brother Nazariah's Ill Informed

DiatribeAgainst Veganism

Mark,

Then disregard my first sentence but consider the second. If you know how

much B vitamin is needed, where/how to get it and how to know when you have

enough, that would certainly be welcome information.

I don't mean to be harsh - I've raised my kids with insistence that they say

things that are kind, thoughtful and helpful and if they can't think of anything

they should wait until they do. You don't have to do anything you don't want

to, this list will better for everyone if you do though.

Peace, love and Thanks,

Nick

> I don't consider my post to have been sarcastic, condescending or

ridiculing. I consider it satire, an attempt to illuminate a point through

humor. Certainly it is less condescending than saying that concerns about B12

are " nonsensical " or that anybody who takes B12 is violating all of nature's

laws. B12 ought to be able to be discussed without laying a guilt trip on

somebody who takes it, or who is thinking about taking it.

>

> Mark

>

This list serves best when the information is honest and accurate.

May 18, 2004

Mark,

That was not addressed solely to you. I was actually taking the

opportunity to address the list in general, as the issue was raised

and there has been other examples of sarcasm recently, besides yours.

I have even been known to use light sarcasm in humor only, when I

feel it will not offend. I'd like the original poster to enjoy it as

well!

Jeff

>I don't consider my post to have been sarcastic, condescending or

>ridiculing. I consider it satire, an attempt to illuminate a point

>through humor. Certainly it is less condescending than saying that

>concerns about B12 are " nonsensical " or that anybody who takes B12

>is violating all of nature's laws. B12 ought to be able to be

>discussed without laying a guilt trip on somebody who takes it, or

>who is thinking about taking it.

May 18, 2004

And children grow up with not a clue as to where their food comes from.

I've had young women tell me that they won't eat anything (vegetable-wise)

that does not come shrink-wrapped in plastic from the supermarket. Could

you imagine how " grossed out " these people would be if they had a clue what

kind of environment their carrots were grown in, or what part of a cow their

milk came from??

I have to reiterate my " better safe than sorry " recommendation on B-12. I'd

rather take an occasional supplement than to take a chance on irreversible

neurological damage, which is the end-result of a B-12 deficiency. And I do

have an organic garden to eat from, so I know that I'm getting some

incidental B-12 via my organically-grown produce. (Another " gross-out " for

the city folks - a freshly-harvested piece of organic fruit or vegetable

will have teeny, tiny insects on it. When we eat the fruit directly from

the vine, guess what...we're eating those teeny, tiny insects! Now, another

person in the local (cooked) vegan community took my comments in that regard

and quoted me as advocating " eating bugs " . (He's a big-city-boy, has never,

ever had a backyard garden, thinks everything comes in a package from the

store.) Not really, but if you take those same freshly-picked berries and

let them sit in a bowl in the kitchen for 15 minutes, you will find them

covered with all kinds of little, tiny flying critters. They didn't come

from nowhere.)

Sue