Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Have a question about diesel.....isn't it quite a polluter? And can diesel be made from any oil? And as far as cost, it sound more expensive. Didn't Attlila say it was over $3 per gallon for his soy oil? Personally I have learned to read a bus schedule! Shari Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 I'm not an expert, but... Regular diesel is nasty. It stinks and I choke on the fumes, but from what I know of bio-diesel, it burns cleaner and smells like popcorn (recycled popcorn oil is commonly used). I understand that any vegetable oil is usable. Commercially unusable or used oils may be recycled as bio-diesel. It is more expensive. Like buying organic, it is a commitment to a better way of life and an improved environment. One hope is that, with time, prices will come down. Jeff >Have a question about diesel.....isn't it quite a polluter? And can >diesel be made from any oil? And as far as cost, it sound more >expensive. Didn't Attlila say it was over $3 per gallon for his soy >oil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2004 Report Share Posted May 16, 2004 Jeff, You have to start with a diesel engine. Then you can just replace the fuel injectors to convert from petrol-diesel to vegetable oil. The oil can be harvested " from fast food places and requires some filtering - Home Power magazine has published articles on how to build the equipment. This might be cheaper in the long run than paying $3/gallon but does require that you gin a batch of fuel every few weeks. Here is another interesting pedal-electric vehicle. Made in Switzerland in fairly large quantity. http://ds1.dreifels.ch/twikeklub/index.asp?LA=eng & PA=page.asp?DH=40 Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - Jeff Rogers RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:40 AM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Thanks!!! www.homepower.com had great LINKS, I found a site that sells kits to convert cars to electric. This is more cost effective than buying a brand new electric or air car, and you can choose to convert older volkswagens which I can imagine would be much easier to work on. see www.Electroauto.com. Instead of sourcing your electricity from the city's power grid you could buy a solar panel, and never have to ever pay for any gas or whatever ever again all for less than 15k (thats if you choose to really invest). Thanks for the post Nick. Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Jeff, You have to start with a diesel engine. Then you can just replace the fuel injectors to convert from petrol-diesel to vegetable oil. The oil can be harvested " from fast food places and requires some filtering - Home Power magazine has published articles on how to build the equipment. This might be cheaper in the long run than paying $3/gallon but does require that you gin a batch of fuel every few weeks. Here is another interesting pedal-electric vehicle. Made in Switzerland in fairly large quantity. http://ds1.dreifels.ch/twikeklub/index.asp?LA=eng & PA=page.asp?DH=40 Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - Jeff Rogers RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:40 AM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2004 Report Share Posted May 17, 2004 Courtney, I worked for a shop in Seattle that does electric conversions of conventional cars. http://www.cloudelectric.com/ You should do the math on the power available from the sun and the cost of batteries. With current solar cell and battery technology there is no financial benefit to using solar cells or converting a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine) car to electric. Current cars are so overbuilt that they require a large, heavy and expensive bank of batteries. You will be far better off with a vehicle that is custom-built for electric. However, conversions are still worthwhile if your trips are short and you don't carry alot of payload. Cloud Electric will do both conversions and custom-built vehicles, and sometimes have used vehicles for sale. They are also generous with advice (as am I - contact me off-list if you would like to know more) I would recommend that you choose a late-model car for conversion because older cars are difficult (expensive) to get repair parts for. Geo Metros and Chevy Sprints have been recent favorites. The Cloud Electric website has information on what to consider when selecting a conversion candidate. The most important item is that the frame be stiff and light to accomodate the batteries. For a typical conversion car, solar panel ($1000) and battery bank you will get about 5 miles worth of energy from a full day of sun in the Summer. You can fully charge the car from an outlet for less than a dollar in a few hours. Practical range has been 25-50 miles on these conversions. You should be prepared to face the fact that we can't sustain our current expectations of auto performance with fresh air and sunshine. But with good and complete redesign and sensible use we can get by on what we get from the sun, without destroying the Earth. The Twike is the best example I know of this approach. You may be able to arrange a test-drive of one through http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com, also in Seattle. At one time I believe they had sold one to a Seattle customer. They used to do auto conversions but have switched to doing only bikes and scooters. Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - courtney Linclau RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:07 PM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion Thanks!!! www.homepower.com had great LINKS, I found a site that sells kits to convert cars to electric. This is more cost effective than buying a brand new electric or air car, and you can choose to convert older volkswagens which I can imagine would be much easier to work on. see www.Electroauto.com. Instead of sourcing your electricity from the city's power grid you could buy a solar panel, and never have to ever pay for any gas or whatever ever again all for less than 15k (thats if you choose to really invest). Thanks for the post Nick. Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Jeff, You have to start with a diesel engine. Then you can just replace the fuel injectors to convert from petrol-diesel to vegetable oil. The oil can be harvested " from fast food places and requires some filtering - Home Power magazine has published articles on how to build the equipment. This might be cheaper in the long run than paying $3/gallon but does require that you gin a batch of fuel every few weeks. Here is another interesting pedal-electric vehicle. Made in Switzerland in fairly large quantity. http://ds1.dreifels.ch/twikeklub/index.asp?LA=eng & PA=page.asp?DH=40 Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - Jeff Rogers RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:40 AM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Nick, Thanks for your tip, I checked out the site you mentioned and found this posted under Converted vehicles next to a picture of a converted volkswagen rabbit: " Why convert your own car now when the major automobile manufacturers are promising long-range electric cars in the next five to ten years? For one thing, it is less wasteful to convert existing cars than to junk them and buy new. Also, conversion costs less than$7,000 to convert a 1984 VW Rabbit valued at $2,000, compared with a projected $30,000 to $50,000 for the first American mass-produced electric cars. " I'll listen to your advice about the solar energy stuff if you can HONESTLY tell me that you're an authority on solar power. -Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Courtney, I worked for a shop in Seattle that does electric conversions of conventional cars. http://www.cloudelectric.com/ You should do the math on the power available from the sun and the cost of batteries. With current solar cell and battery technology there is no financial benefit to using solar cells or converting a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine) car to electric. Current cars are so overbuilt that they require a large, heavy and expensive bank of batteries. You will be far better off with a vehicle that is custom-built for electric. However, conversions are still worthwhile if your trips are short and you don't carry alot of payload. Cloud Electric will do both conversions and custom-built vehicles, and sometimes have used vehicles for sale. They are also generous with advice (as am I - contact me off-list if you would like to know more) I would recommend that you choose a late-model car for conversion because older cars are difficult (expensive) to get repair parts for. Geo Metros and Chevy Sprints have been recent favorites. The Cloud Electric website has information on what to consider when selecting a conversion candidate. The most important item is that the frame be stiff and light to accomodate the batteries. For a typical conversion car, solar panel ($1000) and battery bank you will get about 5 miles worth of energy from a full day of sun in the Summer. You can fully charge the car from an outlet for less than a dollar in a few hours. Practical range has been 25-50 miles on these conversions. You should be prepared to face the fact that we can't sustain our current expectations of auto performance with fresh air and sunshine. But with good and complete redesign and sensible use we can get by on what we get from the sun, without destroying the Earth. The Twike is the best example I know of this approach. You may be able to arrange a test-drive of one through http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com, also in Seattle. At one time I believe they had sold one to a Seattle customer. They used to do auto conversions but have switched to doing only bikes and scooters. Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - courtney Linclau RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:07 PM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion Thanks!!! www.homepower.com had great LINKS, I found a site that sells kits to convert cars to electric. This is more cost effective than buying a brand new electric or air car, and you can choose to convert older volkswagens which I can imagine would be much easier to work on. see www.Electroauto.com. Instead of sourcing your electricity from the city's power grid you could buy a solar panel, and never have to ever pay for any gas or whatever ever again all for less than 15k (thats if you choose to really invest). Thanks for the post Nick. Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Jeff, You have to start with a diesel engine. Then you can just replace the fuel injectors to convert from petrol-diesel to vegetable oil. The oil can be harvested " from fast food places and requires some filtering - Home Power magazine has published articles on how to build the equipment. This might be cheaper in the long run than paying $3/gallon but does require that you gin a batch of fuel every few weeks. Here is another interesting pedal-electric vehicle. Made in Switzerland in fairly large quantity. http://ds1.dreifels.ch/twikeklub/index.asp?LA=eng & PA=page.asp?DH=40 Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - Jeff Rogers RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:40 AM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2004 Report Share Posted May 18, 2004 Courtney, 1) The numbers from the Cloud Electric website are reasonable, based on my knowledge from a year ago. There are also some old converted vehicles that are being re-sold for a similar price. I met an EE professor down the street from my new home here in WV who has a pickup truck that was done in a fleet conversion and he keeps a list of similar ones available for sale. Usually these can be purchased cheaper because they only require a new battery pack and updated motor and controller. All of the mechanical work of mounting the parts has been done. Keep in mind the issue of gettting repair parts for an old car - 5 years is a good age if you plan to keep the thing for a while. Electric cars last a LOOONG time, motors are usually warranteed for 600,000 miles. Seattle is a particularly good place to keep one a long time because rust just doesn't happen. 2) I'm an authority on solar power inasmuch as I studied it in college at the UW 4 years ago when I went back for my Masters' degree in Mechanical engineering. I've also studied it as a hobbyist for about 25 years. I can also refer you to people more experienced than myself. Here are some rough numbers to aid you in making a decision.... Total Solar Power (peak Summer) 1 KW/sq meter Typical efficiency: 15% Available power: 150W/sq meter Cost: $1/W Power required for a typical conversion car is 100 Amps*144V = 14.4KW With a single 1 sq M panel it would take 14.4 hours to charge the car for one hour of running and cost $150 Cost goes down proportionately, so with 5 sq m of panel charging time is less than 3 hrs at a cost of $750 This is doable, but most people don't because it isn't cost-competitive with conventional cars under most conditions. A conversion car has performance equivalent to that of a gas-engine car with a 2 gallon gas tank that takes hours to refill. For city-dwellers who can afford it this is still a good choice, but few people so far have been willing to pay the extra expense for such limited range. An excellent solution to the range problem can be achieved by having a gas-propelled trailer for use on long trips. If you could put that 1 sq m solar panel on a bicycle it would be an amount of power about equal to that of a person, with no battery required. A friend of mine has built a solar-powered airplane that can maintain altitude on only solar power (it has batteries to assist on takeoff). www.solar-flight.com. The high cost of solar panels is somewhat artificial. Solar panel manufacturers are operating factories 24/7/365, but not building new capacity because they can make more profit from scarcity than they would from adequate supply. This situation has existed for at least 10 years now. As far as I know there is no government support for solar cell manufacture or purchase where there is for oil production and distribution. Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - courtney Linclau RawSeattle Monday, May 17, 2004 10:21 PM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion Nick, Thanks for your tip, I checked out the site you mentioned and found this posted under Converted vehicles next to a picture of a converted volkswagen rabbit: " Why convert your own car now when the major automobile manufacturers are promising long-range electric cars in the next five to ten years? For one thing, it is less wasteful to convert existing cars than to junk them and buy new. Also, conversion costs less than$7,000 to convert a 1984 VW Rabbit valued at $2,000, compared with a projected $30,000 to $50,000 for the first American mass-produced electric cars. " I'll listen to your advice about the solar energy stuff if you can HONESTLY tell me that you're an authority on solar power. -Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Courtney, I worked for a shop in Seattle that does electric conversions of conventional cars. http://www.cloudelectric.com/ You should do the math on the power available from the sun and the cost of batteries. With current solar cell and battery technology there is no financial benefit to using solar cells or converting a conventional ICE (internal combustion engine) car to electric. Current cars are so overbuilt that they require a large, heavy and expensive bank of batteries. You will be far better off with a vehicle that is custom-built for electric. However, conversions are still worthwhile if your trips are short and you don't carry alot of payload. Cloud Electric will do both conversions and custom-built vehicles, and sometimes have used vehicles for sale. They are also generous with advice (as am I - contact me off-list if you would like to know more) I would recommend that you choose a late-model car for conversion because older cars are difficult (expensive) to get repair parts for. Geo Metros and Chevy Sprints have been recent favorites. The Cloud Electric website has information on what to consider when selecting a conversion candidate. The most important item is that the frame be stiff and light to accomodate the batteries. For a typical conversion car, solar panel ($1000) and battery bank you will get about 5 miles worth of energy from a full day of sun in the Summer. You can fully charge the car from an outlet for less than a dollar in a few hours. Practical range has been 25-50 miles on these conversions. You should be prepared to face the fact that we can't sustain our current expectations of auto performance with fresh air and sunshine. But with good and complete redesign and sensible use we can get by on what we get from the sun, without destroying the Earth. The Twike is the best example I know of this approach. You may be able to arrange a test-drive of one through http://www.electricvehiclesnw.com, also in Seattle. At one time I believe they had sold one to a Seattle customer. They used to do auto conversions but have switched to doing only bikes and scooters. Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - courtney Linclau RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:07 PM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion Thanks!!! www.homepower.com had great LINKS, I found a site that sells kits to convert cars to electric. This is more cost effective than buying a brand new electric or air car, and you can choose to convert older volkswagens which I can imagine would be much easier to work on. see www.Electroauto.com. Instead of sourcing your electricity from the city's power grid you could buy a solar panel, and never have to ever pay for any gas or whatever ever again all for less than 15k (thats if you choose to really invest). Thanks for the post Nick. Courtney Nick <nick.hein wrote: Jeff, You have to start with a diesel engine. Then you can just replace the fuel injectors to convert from petrol-diesel to vegetable oil. The oil can be harvested " from fast food places and requires some filtering - Home Power magazine has published articles on how to build the equipment. This might be cheaper in the long run than paying $3/gallon but does require that you gin a batch of fuel every few weeks. Here is another interesting pedal-electric vehicle. Made in Switzerland in fairly large quantity. http://ds1.dreifels.ch/twikeklub/index.asp?LA=eng & PA=page.asp?DH=40 Nickolas Hein Morgantown WV - Jeff Rogers RawSeattle Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:40 AM Re: [RawSeattle] OT diesel conversion >It does sound bleak though. I'm working on converting my truck to >deisel, so that I can start buying bio- deisel. I've heard of converting engines to utilize natural gas. What is the process/expense to convert to diesel? Jeff PS: Personally, I'd like to see more of those vehicles as seen on The Flintstones! (foot-powered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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