Symptoms vs. underlying causes

[Guest guest]

RawSeattle , " Ron Koenig " <ron.koenig@v...>

wrote:

> Cleansing the bowel does reduce a lot of symptoms.

 

 

Exactly, and so does taking drugs. But the point isn't to get rid of

symptoms, right? I remember hearing symptom treatment being likened

to putting tape over the lights in a car dashboard that tell you when

you need to fix what's going on under the hood. Likewise, if one has

low self-esteem, and consequently feels bad, should that person go

around boasting to feel better? That might bring on more upbeat

spirits, but it wouldn't deal with the underlying problem. The low

feelings are the SYMPTOM. The cause is low self-esteem, negative

thinking about oneself. The most effective way to deal with such a

problem is to reprogram one's beliefs, one's thought patterns, as

that's the real, original issue.

 

So, although it looks like it, the problem isn't with the indicator

lights, or the emotional swings, or physical symptoms. Treating the

SYMPTOM is only a TEMPORARY COVER-UP. It's not only INEFFECTIVE at

dealing with the ROOT PROBLEM, but it actually creates an ADDITIONAL

problem: the body creates symptoms ON PURPOSE as its way of dealing

with the more root problems. The symptoms are the best defense

available for nature to resolve the basic issues. If you defeat the

body's responses, you've usurped control, denied the NATURAL way to

handle things, put additional strain on your system that it'll now

have to deal with ON TOP OF whatever the original difficulty was. So

the question is, do you want a transient or a permanent solution? I

think the choice is clear.

 

Nora, Robert, and anyone else like to continue the thread and go into

more detail on the topic of intestinal " cleansing " ? I don't think

we've had a lot of posts on that yet, but I think it'd be informative

and valuable.

[Guest guest]

Eric, I agree totally with what you said, but it does not always

apply to bowel cleansing (unless you were discussing specifically

coffee enemas). The best way to cleanse is from the inside out, but

if someone is cleansing and feeling crummy, it is better to remove

the cause, which is the stuff accumulating in the bowel trying to

exit, from the outside through an enema or colonic, than to do

nothing at all. If enemas and colonics are done for the right reason

and not as pennance for intentional wrong eating, it has a limited

place in removing a cause of certain symptoms.

 

The same can apply to any food which, however natural, does not agree

with your body. If you cannot find or correct the underlying cause,

then removing the food from your diet will eliminate the symptom,

which is better than eating it and getting the symptom.

 

I'm sure this isn't the end of this discussion!

 

Ron Koenig

 

RawSeattle , " ericscottfarris "

<EricScottFarris@Y...> wrote:

> RawSeattle , " Ron Koenig " <ron.koenig@v...>

> wrote:

> > Cleansing the bowel does reduce a lot of symptoms.

 

> Exactly, and so does taking drugs. But the point isn't to get rid

of symptoms, right?

[Guest guest]

Hi Eric,

I seem to have only gotten part of this discussion so I'll assume that the

subject line is still applicable. This edited version of a post I wrote

about symptoms a few months ago on another board might be relevant and

informative. I have an essay, also, on colonic hydrotherapy (why it is not

advisable) that I can send to anyone who is interested. It's a bit long to

post here but I can if there is interest. Let me know.

Nora

 

SYMPTOMS

Symptoms are always about one of two things: degeneration or elimination.

Physical symptoms can result when tissues degenerate because of constant

exposure to toxic bodily wastes. Chronic or degenerative disease is the

result of many factors, including wrong food choices, not enough exercise

or sleep, inadequate sunshine or fresh air, etc., and from the habit of

suppressing acute symptoms. Acute symptoms, on the other hand, are about

elimination. When we go raw, we may notice an increase in acute symptoms.

They can manifest in hundreds of ways, from headaches to acne, menstrual

cramps, runny nose, bladder “infections”, fever, and so on. This happens

because the body begins to eliminate stored waste when we stop overwhelming

it with the burden of eliminating the daily waste produced by the ingestion

of wrong foods, vaccines, meds, supplements, herbs, etc. It has " extra "

energy, and it automatically appropriates it to the activity that will most

efficiently improve overall function.

 

The body’s mechanisms for cleansing and healing are simple and complex at

the same time. Adding to the confusion is the fact that it might sometimes

seem like you can’t escape symptoms no matter what you do. So often we

expect to feel great within a few weeks or months of starting a raw diet,

but just the opposite might happen. You can have symptoms if you’re doing

all the right things, because your body is simply taking a long-awaited

opportunity to cleanse stored waste. Or, symptoms can result if you’re

doing some things right but are making mistakes too. Then of course they

can even mean that you’re doing all the wrong things because your body is

being overwhelmed (as when SAD eaters get a 'cold'). Sometimes when we have

symptoms, we’re advised to eat food that produces more waste in order to

“slow down” the removal of stored waste. At other times, we are advised to

eat foods that create less waste because our bodies are showing signs of

being overwhelmed by the task of elimination. How can we know?

 

There are no simple answers. How you proceed when you have symptoms is

obviously dependent on various factors, all having to do with your

particular situation. The first thing to do if you have acute symptoms is

take a good hard look at your eating habits, including what you've been

eating, what time of day you eat, what your state of mind is when you eat,

how much you eat and in what combinations. In any of those areas, mistakes

can be made that can lead to problems.

 

If you’ve recently gone from SAD or even SVD (standard vegan diet) eating

to low-fat, high raw, your symptoms will most likely be a simple case of

heightened cleansing. Eating denser or more high fat foods will take the

energy that your body is devoting to this increased cleansing activity, and

thus will ease your symptoms. Unless your symptoms are interfering with

your ability to work or function, naturally the best thing to do is eat as

optimally as possible (i.e., low fat, low starch, high fruit, greens to the

extent that you desire them) and ride them out. However, it is important

to not push yourself too hard at this stage. " Transitional " foods are

important because they'll help keep you raw. Eating nuts everyday is hard

on your body, but eating cooked food is harder. If eating nuts everyday is

the only thing that keeps you away from cooked food, do it. If you can eat

them every other day and stay raw, do that. If you can eat them once a

week and stay raw, that's even better.

 

As you get into your first 6-18 months of being raw, you need to

periodically re-evaluate the foods you’re eating, especially if you’re

having symptoms. Even though you might be doing the same things you’ve been

doing since the beginning, there will be changes happening in your body

that will require you to be flexible. As you get healthier, your body will

become more sensitive to inappropriate foods. Many raw fooders suffer with

perpetual symptoms because they don't realize how important it is to eat

less and less of the recipes, bad combos, gourmet raw foods, dried fruits,

commercially prepared raw foods (Govinda, etc.), high fat, high starch and

complex/spicy foods as they get healthier. At some point, you have to

choose between refining your diet and living with never-ending symptoms.

 

If you suddenly find yourself with acute symptoms, it’s best to: 1) water

fast, or 2) if fasting isn't possible, eat only juicy fruit for a few days

at least until your symptoms abate. Whatever reasons your body has for

doing what it's doing, it's best to trust that it KNOWS what it's doing.

When we're talking about WHY the body does something, there is never one

answer. The body has millions of processes going on at the same time, and

there are literally thousands of factors responsible. We don't need to

know why, we just need to cooperate and let it happen.

 

Regarding degenerative disease, most chronic conditions are totally

reversible. It should be noted, however, that tissues which have lost

their ability to function properly are sometimes past the point of

regeneration. So, in rare cases the symptoms of chronic disease may not

improve significantly on a raw diet. I don't think it can be assumed that

on-going symptoms are caused by irreversible deterioration, however, unless

a person has been raw for a couple years and has been making the constant,

gradual refinements mentioned above without seeing improvement. It's

always best to assume that symptoms are a result of mistakes that are being

made with the diet, in which case the best course of action is to keep

experimenting, keep learning and, most importantly, keep moving toward

optimal. Nobody should give up on an optimal raw diet because of symptoms

that may be attributable to irreversible damage. Even if chronic,

irreversible disease is responsible, there are only two choices: go back to

the diet that created the disease in the first place and see the symptoms

get progressively worse, or eat optimal raw and at least stop the

degeneration.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good morning all,

I was tired when I wrote that post last night about symptoms, so I wanted to

expound a little and offer clarification on some things.

 

<<<Symptoms are always about one of two things: degeneration or elimination.

 

Or, they can be about both going on at the same time, of course. We have no

way of knowing how much of each is responsible for our symptoms, but it doesn't

matter because knowing doesn't change what we need to do.

 

<<<Then of course they (symptoms) can even mean that you’re doing all the wrong

things because your body is

being overwhelmed (as when SAD eaters get a 'cold').

 

What I meant to say is that you can have symptoms if you're doing all the wrong

things, which causes the body to become overwhelmed.

 

<<<At some point, you have to choose between refining your diet and living with

never-ending symptoms.

 

There is another choice -- you can choose to stop your symptoms. This can be

done in any number of ways, ranging from taking medications, herbs, etc., to

eating cooked food. When your symptoms go away, you feel better, naturally.

This is often mistaken for an indication that you're " healthier " but it's not

the case. Most of us enter the healing process with expectations that are

built upon our experiences with remedies. Remedies stop symptoms quickly

because they cause the body to go into emergency elimination mode. Symptoms go

away slowly when they're allowed to run their course. Anything that makes you

feel better " instantly " or even quickly is only a postponement of the

suffering, not its elimination.

 

<<<Nobody should give up on an optimal raw diet because of symptoms that may be

attributable to irreversible damage. Even if chronic, irreversible disease is

responsible, ...

 

I didn't mean this as advice, but as a general guideline. I have to work on my

habit of saying " you should " , etc., when I should say, " it's always best to " ...

 

In fact none of my post was intended as a response to anything that's been

written here recently. It's just general information that I thought might help

people understand their symptoms. Unfortunately these ideas don't seem to get

talked about much. Going and staying raw is a very tough thing to do. Many

times when raw fooders are struggling there is a lot of support for making

compromises and this is as it should be. We need to support one another. But

there should also be information about the consequences of compromising and the

benefits of *not* compromising so that people can make fully informed choices

before they choose to backslide. Backsliding is sometimes necessary, and

sometimes it's worth the cost. That there IS a cost is often ignored. It's

not the end of the world to backslide. It takes many years of practice to get

this thing right.

 

Nora

 

 

Nora Lenz wrote:

 

> Hi Eric,

> I seem to have only gotten part of this discussion so I'll assume that the

> subject line is still applicable. This edited version of a post I wrote

> about symptoms a few months ago on another board might be relevant and

> informative. I have an essay, also, on colonic hydrotherapy (why it is not

> advisable) that I can send to anyone who is interested. It's a bit long to

> post here but I can if there is interest. Let me know.

> Nora

>

> SYMPTOMS

> Symptoms are always about one of two things: degeneration or elimination.

> Physical symptoms can result when tissues degenerate because of constant

> exposure to toxic bodily wastes. Chronic or degenerative disease is the

> result of many factors, including wrong food choices, not enough exercise

> or sleep, inadequate sunshine or fresh air, etc., and from the habit of

> suppressing acute symptoms. Acute symptoms, on the other hand, are about

> elimination. When we go raw, we may notice an increase in acute symptoms.

> They can manifest in hundreds of ways, from headaches to acne, menstrual

> cramps, runny nose, bladder “infections”, fever, and so on. This happens

> because the body begins to eliminate stored waste when we stop overwhelming

> it with the burden of eliminating the daily waste produced by the ingestion

> of wrong foods, vaccines, meds, supplements, herbs, etc. It has " extra "

> energy, and it automatically appropriates it to the activity that will most

> efficiently improve overall function.

>

> The body’s mechanisms for cleansing and healing are simple and complex at

> the same time. Adding to the confusion is the fact that it might sometimes

> seem like you can’t escape symptoms no matter what you do. So often we

> expect to feel great within a few weeks or months of starting a raw diet,

> but just the opposite might happen. You can have symptoms if you’re doing

> all the right things, because your body is simply taking a long-awaited

> opportunity to cleanse stored waste. Or, symptoms can result if you’re

> doing some things right but are making mistakes too. Then of course they

> can even mean that you’re doing all the wrong things because your body is

> being overwhelmed (as when SAD eaters get a 'cold'). Sometimes when we have

> symptoms, we’re advised to eat food that produces more waste in order to

> “slow down” the removal of stored waste. At other times, we are advised to

> eat foods that create less waste because our bodies are showing signs of

> being overwhelmed by the task of elimination. How can we know?

>

> There are no simple answers. How you proceed when you have symptoms is

> obviously dependent on various factors, all having to do with your

> particular situation. The first thing to do if you have acute symptoms is

> take a good hard look at your eating habits, including what you've been

> eating, what time of day you eat, what your state of mind is when you eat,

> how much you eat and in what combinations. In any of those areas, mistakes

> can be made that can lead to problems.

>

> If you’ve recently gone from SAD or even SVD (standard vegan diet) eating

> to low-fat, high raw, your symptoms will most likely be a simple case of

> heightened cleansing. Eating denser or more high fat foods will take the

> energy that your body is devoting to this increased cleansing activity, and

> thus will ease your symptoms. Unless your symptoms are interfering with

> your ability to work or function, naturally the best thing to do is eat as

> optimally as possible (i.e., low fat, low starch, high fruit, greens to the

> extent that you desire them) and ride them out. However, it is important

> to not push yourself too hard at this stage. " Transitional " foods are

> important because they'll help keep you raw. Eating nuts everyday is hard

> on your body, but eating cooked food is harder. If eating nuts everyday is

> the only thing that keeps you away from cooked food, do it. If you can eat

> them every other day and stay raw, do that. If you can eat them once a

> week and stay raw, that's even better.

>

> As you get into your first 6-18 months of being raw, you need to

> periodically re-evaluate the foods you’re eating, especially if you’re

> having symptoms. Even though you might be doing the same things you’ve been

> doing since the beginning, there will be changes happening in your body

> that will require you to be flexible. As you get healthier, your body will

> become more sensitive to inappropriate foods. Many raw fooders suffer with

> perpetual symptoms because they don't realize how important it is to eat

> less and less of the recipes, bad combos, gourmet raw foods, dried fruits,

> commercially prepared raw foods (Govinda, etc.), high fat, high starch and

> complex/spicy foods as they get healthier. At some point, you have to

> choose between refining your diet and living with never-ending symptoms.

>

> If you suddenly find yourself with acute symptoms, it’s best to: 1) water

> fast, or 2) if fasting isn't possible, eat only juicy fruit for a few days

> at least until your symptoms abate. Whatever reasons your body has for

> doing what it's doing, it's best to trust that it KNOWS what it's doing.

> When we're talking about WHY the body does something, there is never one

> answer. The body has millions of processes going on at the same time, and

> there are literally thousands of factors responsible. We don't need to

> know why, we just need to cooperate and let it happen.

>

> Regarding degenerative disease, most chronic conditions are totally

> reversible. It should be noted, however, that tissues which have lost

> their ability to function properly are sometimes past the point of

> regeneration. So, in rare cases the symptoms of chronic disease may not

> improve significantly on a raw diet. I don't think it can be assumed that

> on-going symptoms are caused by irreversible deterioration, however, unless

> a person has been raw for a couple years and has been making the constant,

> gradual refinements mentioned above without seeing improvement. It's

> always best to assume that symptoms are a result of mistakes that are being

> made with the diet, in which case the best course of action is to keep

> experimenting, keep learning and, most importantly, keep moving toward

> optimal. Nobody should give up on an optimal raw diet because of symptoms

> that may be attributable to irreversible damage. Even if chronic,

> irreversible disease is responsible, there are only two choices: go back to

> the diet that created the disease in the first place and see the symptoms

> get progressively worse, or eat optimal raw and at least stop the

> degeneration.

>

>