Weakness (was 'fats')

July 21, 2004

Nick,

Doug Graham would be a good person for you to learn from. He's written a couple

books that I have not read but that I'm

sure would benefit you, one of which is specifically focussed on raw food and

athletic training. I understand he's writing

another one currently called " Fruit or Fat " , which would most likely answer

these questions you're having about fat. He is

an advocate of very low fat consumption, as I am. In transition, however, all

bets are off since it is difficult to stay

functional if you don't eat some of the denser foods to replicate what your body

is used to getting in cooked food. Once

you are healthy, you can eat dilute foods (like fruit) all day long and never

feel weak.

Weakness is a natural part of the healing process. One thing that you should

understand is that your body is directing

energy to healing now that you have given it the opportunity. This means that

you might not always have energy available

for outward activities like biking to work 30 miles. Weakness is a sign that

you should rest. It is not a sign that you

need to eat. When your body wants rest, it doesn't want food. Food is work for

your body. When you ate the ice cream, you

re-stimulated yourself, inciting a lot of hormone action that is required to

digest and eliminate inappropriate foods, like

soy. What you felt after you ate it was the expenditure of energy, not its

regeneration. Eating those kinds of foods only

guarantees more low, weak periods because you've just given your body more

cleansing to do, and it must re-generate the

energy that it spent digesting and eliminating the bad food. Regeneration of

energy only happens during rest..

In our modern world, there are occasions when we find ourselves with only

re-stimulation as an option, because we can't

always cooperate with our bodies and rest. If you feel weak, naturally the best

thing to do is rest. If you can't rest,

the next best thing to do is eat raw food. The worst thing you can do is eat

inappropriate food. Well, it's not the worst

thing, but it's not good. As long as you're cleansing and having these weak

periods it is highly advisable to always

have some raw food with you, so you don't get stuck in a situation where you

have to eat garbage in order to stay

functional.

Hope this is helpful. Take care!

Nora

RawSchool.com

Nick wrote:

> Shari,

> Thanks, I'll try him. He's somewhat local here too.

>

> Nickolas Hein

> Morgantown WV

> -

> Shari Viger

> RawSeattle

> Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:32 AM

> Re: [RawSeattle] Re: Fats

>

> Dr. Doug Graham is a sports trainer, raw for many, many years and he claims

to consume NO fats. Maybe check with him.

>

> Shari

>

July 21, 2004

Nora,

Thanks for the advice, I was hoping to hear something from you. I would like to

know whether soy is undesirable all around or not (as I had assumed before now).

I've been raw for 3 years and was assuming that most of my cleansing was behind

me and so I didn't suspect that this weakness could have transition-related. I

wasn't sleeping well when I did sleep. Last night I slept like a log.

I see that Doug Graham is at this weekend's N Am Veg Festival and next weekend's

Living Now festival. Both are within a few hours drive and I will try to catch

him there. A local friend of mine had gone to Doug Graham and his regimen

nearly killed her, so I was hesitant about finding out more from him until now.

We are still trying to figure out why my friend (Darcy) couldn't find a raw

regimen that did more good. Right now she is following the blood type diet and

recovering nicely.

I've been reading bits of Doug's website today, but it doesn't really have much

substance. Is there another website that puts the information I need right up

front? (instead of hiding it behind an ad for the book?)

Thanks again.

Nick

>

> Nora Lenz <nmlenz

> 2004/07/21 Wed AM 08:21:26 CDT

> RawSeattle

> Re: [RawSeattle] Weakness (was 'fats')

>

> Nick,

> Doug Graham would be a good person for you to learn from. He's written a

couple books that I have not read but that I'm

> sure would benefit you, one of which is specifically focussed on raw food and

athletic training. I understand he's writing

> another one currently called " Fruit or Fat " , which would most likely answer

these questions you're having about fat. He is

> an advocate of very low fat consumption, as I am. In transition, however, all

bets are off since it is difficult to stay

> functional if you don't eat some of the denser foods to replicate what your

body is used to getting in cooked food. Once

> you are healthy, you can eat dilute foods (like fruit) all day long and never

feel weak.

>

> Weakness is a natural part of the healing process. One thing that you should

understand is that your body is directing

> energy to healing now that you have given it the opportunity. This means that

you might not always have energy available

> for outward activities like biking to work 30 miles. Weakness is a sign that

you should rest. It is not a sign that you

> need to eat. When your body wants rest, it doesn't want food. Food is work

for your body. When you ate the ice cream, you

> re-stimulated yourself, inciting a lot of hormone action that is required to

digest and eliminate inappropriate foods, like

> soy. What you felt after you ate it was the expenditure of energy, not its

regeneration. Eating those kinds of foods only

> guarantees more low, weak periods because you've just given your body more

cleansing to do, and it must re-generate the

> energy that it spent digesting and eliminating the bad food. Regeneration of

energy only happens during rest..

>

> In our modern world, there are occasions when we find ourselves with only

re-stimulation as an option, because we can't

> always cooperate with our bodies and rest. If you feel weak, naturally the

best thing to do is rest. If you can't rest,

> the next best thing to do is eat raw food. The worst thing you can do is eat

inappropriate food. Well, it's not the worst

> thing, but it's not good. As long as you're cleansing and having these

weak periods it is highly advisable to always

> have some raw food with you, so you don't get stuck in a situation where you

have to eat garbage in order to stay

> functional.

>

> Hope this is helpful. Take care!

> Nora

> RawSchool.com

>

> Nick wrote:

>

> > Shari,

> > Thanks, I'll try him. He's somewhat local here too.

> >

> > Nickolas Hein

> > Morgantown WV

> > -

> > Shari Viger

> > RawSeattle

> > Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:32 AM

> > Re: [RawSeattle] Re: Fats

> >

> > Dr. Doug Graham is a sports trainer, raw for many, many years and he

claims to consume NO fats. Maybe check with him.

> >

> > Shari

> >

July 21, 2004

Nick - the general notion is that for every year we ate SAD we will detox one

month. So if we ate SAD for 36 years we would detox for 36 months - 3 years!

Don't know if that is consecutive or what, but when we eat any cooked the detox

stops - completely - and when we go 100% we start the detox process, again.

According to Victoria Boutenko anyway.

Shari

July 21, 2004

Shari,

Understood. Also, I have only gone raw to the point of eating and not fasting

so I may well still be in detox. However I was so tired and had been for over a

week that I'm certain that I had depleted my stores of SOMEthing and have yet to

find out what it is. I assumed it was fat.

Interestingly, on the last day of my long ride the thing that got me home was

stopping to eat a whole cucumber occaisionally. In spite of punishing hills and

hot sun I did 100 miles that day and felt OK when I got home. That could be

what got me so depleted though.

Thanks again.

Nick

>

> " Shari Viger " <shavig

> 2004/07/21 Wed PM 01:28:46 CDT

> <RawSeattle >

> Re: Re: [RawSeattle] Weakness (was 'fats')

>

> Nick - the general notion is that for every year we ate SAD we will detox one

month. So if we ate SAD for 36 years we would detox for 36 months - 3 years!

Don't know if that is consecutive or what, but when we eat any cooked the detox

stops - completely - and when we go 100% we start the detox process, again.

According to Victoria Boutenko anyway.

>

> Shari

>

July 22, 2004

Hi Nick,

You can tell for yourself that soy is not human food, because it requires

substantial processing to be palatable or even partially digestible. In its raw

state, it does not appeal to any of our senses. We might eat raw soybeans if we

were starving, but this is not fit criteria by which to choose our foods when we

have abundant choices. They are much like any other bean or legume -- very

complex, starchy, way too high in protein. A very unhealthy, waste-producing,

burdensome food to ask

your body to process. So, yes, I would say that it is undesirable all around.

Some authors choose not to give away too much info on their websites, preferring

instead to sell it in order to make a living. Dr. Graham's writings are full of

insightful truths and very instructive information on how to be raw

successfully, which would be of great help to you. You might also check out his

bulletin board at Vegsource.com where he participates regularly.

No doubt there are many factors responsible for your friend's poor health.

Obviously she was creating disease in her body long before she saw Dr. Graham

and attempted to rectify the situation. The blood type diet is a

disease-causing diet for everyone except those lucky individuals whose blood

types, according to the author's unfounded hypothesis, favor a raw biologically

appropriate diet.

The one recommendation I would make is for you to get your hands on some factual

information that will increase your understanding of the healing process and of

what you must do in order to find the level of health you're seeking. Books,

videos, other educational materials, personal consultations and attending live

presentations (especially by Dr. Graham and others like him) are all helpful.

Best regards,

Nora

nick.hein wrote:

> Nora,

> Thanks for the advice, I was hoping to hear something from you. I would like

to know whether soy is undesirable all around or not (as I had assumed before

now). I've been raw for 3 years and was assuming that most of my cleansing was

behind me and so I didn't suspect that this weakness could have

transition-related. I wasn't sleeping well when I did sleep. Last night I

slept like a log.

>

> I see that Doug Graham is at this weekend's N Am Veg Festival and next

weekend's Living Now festival. Both are within a few hours drive and I will try

to catch him there. A local friend of mine had gone to Doug Graham and his

regimen nearly killed her, so I was hesitant about finding out more from him

until now. We are still trying to figure out why my friend (Darcy) couldn't

find a raw regimen that did more good. Right now she is following the blood

type diet and recovering nicely.

>

> I've been reading bits of Doug's website today, but it doesn't really have

much substance. Is there another website that puts the information I need right

up front? (instead of hiding it behind an ad for the book?)

>

> Thanks again.

> Nick

> >

> > Nora Lenz <nmlenz

> > 2004/07/21 Wed AM 08:21:26 CDT

> > RawSeattle

> > Re: [RawSeattle] Weakness (was 'fats')

> >

> > Nick,

> > Doug Graham would be a good person for you to learn from. He's written a

couple books that I have not read but that I'm

> > sure would benefit you, one of which is specifically focussed on raw food

and athletic training. I understand he's writing

> > another one currently called " Fruit or Fat " , which would most likely answer

these questions you're having about fat. He is

> > an advocate of very low fat consumption, as I am. In transition, however,

all bets are off since it is difficult to stay

> > functional if you don't eat some of the denser foods to replicate what your

body is used to getting in cooked food. Once

> > you are healthy, you can eat dilute foods (like fruit) all day long and

never feel weak.

> >

> > Weakness is a natural part of the healing process. One thing that you

should understand is that your body is directing

> > energy to healing now that you have given it the opportunity. This means

that you might not always have energy available

> > for outward activities like biking to work 30 miles. Weakness is a sign

that you should rest. It is not a sign that you

> > need to eat. When your body wants rest, it doesn't want food. Food is work

for your body. When you ate the ice cream, you

> > re-stimulated yourself, inciting a lot of hormone action that is required to

digest and eliminate inappropriate foods, like

> > soy. What you felt after you ate it was the expenditure of energy, not its

regeneration. Eating those kinds of foods only

> > guarantees more low, weak periods because you've just given your body more

cleansing to do, and it must re-generate the

> > energy that it spent digesting and eliminating the bad food. Regeneration

of energy only happens during rest..

> >

> > In our modern world, there are occasions when we find ourselves with only

re-stimulation as an option, because we can't

> > always cooperate with our bodies and rest. If you feel weak, naturally the

best thing to do is rest. If you can't rest,

> > the next best thing to do is eat raw food. The worst thing you can do is

eat inappropriate food. Well, it's not the worst

> > thing, but it's not good. As long as you're cleansing and having these

weak periods it is highly advisable to always

> > have some raw food with you, so you don't get stuck in a situation where you

have to eat garbage in order to stay

> > functional.

> >

> > Hope this is helpful. Take care!

> > Nora

> > RawSchool.com

> >

> > Nick wrote:

> >

> > > Shari,

> > > Thanks, I'll try him. He's somewhat local here too.

> > >

> > > Nickolas Hein

> > > Morgantown WV

> > > -

> > > Shari Viger

> > > RawSeattle

> > > Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:32 AM

> > > Re: [RawSeattle] Re: Fats

> > >

> > > Dr. Doug Graham is a sports trainer, raw for many, many years and he

claims to consume NO fats. Maybe check with him.

> > >

> > > Shari

> > >

July 22, 2004

Nora,

Thanks again for responding. I really appreciate the advice.

However, when you say....

> The one recommendation I would make is for you to get your hands on some

<FACTUAL> information that will increase your understanding of the healing

process and of what you must do in order to find the level of health you're

seeking. Books, videos, other educational materials, personal consultations and

attending live presentations (especially by Dr. Graham and others like him) are

all helpful.

Finding information that is factual is really the tricky bit. It's good

information that I'm looking for, and knowing what's good is what's tough. In

the end I guess individual-specific info that applies to myself is what I need,

but how do I know what to try among all the possibilities? Any advice?

Thanks again.

Nick Hein

July 23, 2004

If you remember Tony Robins was saying, if you want to be millionaire, find a

person who is millionaire and do what he does.

So if you want to be healthy look for old, active, healthy people and learn from

them. There is one famous Russian runner, writer, professor, who was working as

heart surgeon, wrote many books about health (N. Amosov). He was running every

day 2 hours, and had special diet. It seamed like he new everything about heart

health. But at the age of 60 something, he had heart attack and had several

surgeries on his heart.

We have only one life and one body, we can't allow ourselves to try everything

what people like Amosov are writing in their books (although i read them

anyway). I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy to me and it does

tell me something.

nick.hein wrote:

Nora,

Thanks again for responding. I really appreciate the advice.

However, when you say....

> The one recommendation I would make is for you to get your hands on some

<FACTUAL> information that will increase your understanding of the healing

process and of what you must do in order to find the level of health you're

seeking. Books, videos, other educational materials, personal consultations and

attending live presentations (especially by Dr. Graham and others like him) are

all helpful.

Finding information that is factual is really the tricky bit. It's good

information that I'm looking for, and knowing what's good is what's tough. In

the end I guess individual-specific info that applies to myself is what I need,

but how do I know what to try among all the possibilities? Any advice?

Thanks again.

Nick Hein

July 23, 2004

>>> " In the end I guess individual-specific info that applies to myself is what

I need, but how do I know what to try among all the possibilities? Any advice? "

Hi Nick,

That's a good question. When I deduced that soy was not human food, I

didn't have to take anyone's word for it. I did use a little information that

is only available to us because we know more than our ancestors did about the

nutrient constituents of foods, but it's not necessary to have this information

in order to determine what we should be eating. If, as a foundation, you accept

that our

bodies adapted to the conditions that existed when our species was young, you

only have to imagine yourself faced with your current food choices in pristine

nature with all of your innate senses intact and with no knowledge of the

" science " of nutrition (and no desire to destroy your food with fire). Would

you choose kale or bananas if nobody had ever told you that chlorophyll is

almost identical to

human blood? Can you picture yourself choosing a meal of garlic over mangoes?

Maybe you would if you knew about all the 'great' anti-biotic (translation:

against-life) properties of garlic but remember, you don't have that

information. Ripe raspberries are sweet, beautiful, fragrant, delicious and our

digits are perfectly suited for harvesting them. The only way you would choose

soybeans over

them is if someone had told you the lie that soy prevents cancer.

In other words, whatever takes us away from the choices we would make with

our inborn senses needs to be viewed with suspicion, whether that information

comes from Doug Graham, Gabriel Cousens or Marcus Welby (oops, I guess I'm

dating myself there).

You don't need information that is specific to you as an individual. What

you need is info that applies across the board, to all members of our species.

It is a fallacy that each of us needs different nutrients. All humans have the

same nutritional needs, just as all members of any species do. You don't have

to 'believe' this, you can know it by just observing nature. It is true that we

are

all in different physical conditions, we all have different habits,

circumstances, attitudes, motivations, etc. These variables make our individual

journeys different, but the destination is always the same.

If optimal health is what you want, at 3 years in you should be close to

that destination, imo -- eating only 1) whole, ripe fruits, one at a time, 2)

tender, mild-tasting greens to the extent that you desire them, 3) nuts and

seeds on a very infrequent basis, and 4) zero cooked food. I'm not saying

everyone has to do this, or even that you have to do this, I'm just saying that

anyone who wants

optimal health needs to do this.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you need clarification. I'm off to pick

blueberries now!

Nora

RawSchool.com

July 24, 2004

someone wrote;

> I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy

i'm troubled by this statement and i've been thinking about it all

day...

ya... we're finding out that veganism (raw or cooked) is pushing the

limits healthwise

but have you given any consideration to the fact that optimal personal

health is not the only reason why some people eat a vegan diet

norm )~

...... raw food, simply wonderful .....

July 25, 2004

Sorry if I offended anybody, I didn't mean and I apologies. What I said was

I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy TO ME. Which means this is

only MY opinion, it's form MY point of view. So if this is not correct English,

I am sorry.

>> but have you given any consideration to the fact that optimal personal

health is not the only reason why some people eat a vegan diet.

Norm, again, I wasn't speaking about veganizm, I was speaking about RAW

veganizm. In most cases veganizm has nothing to do with health issues, but RAW

veganizm is the extreme people go to in order to be healthier (not always, but

often). I want to be healthier, doesn't matter how long will I live I want to be

active and healthy while I am here in this world. And I want all people to be

healthy and active. If the KEY is raw veganizm, then I will go for it, and I

will promote it, but so far I didn't find any proof. Nick found for himself, I

didn't.

Eric, I remember you very well, and all group from that Nora's class. I agree

that food is often not the main factor, that there are other factors that are

part of health. This is why when I have been asked what is essential for health,

I mentioned two points which I think MOSTLY affect health: 1) how much you eat

and 2) stress (negative emotions). There are people living in mountains in

Georgia (country, not US state) remaining active at age 150 years old.

Scientists did some research, saying, it's the WATER, they drink high quality

water! And then they said, it's the AIR, they breathe high quality air! Then

they said, they don't eat leftovers, they feed leftover meat to their dogs! Then

finally they discovered those people have never heard about World War II, which

means low stress life.

Love and blessings,

viola

kelpguy <kelpguy wrote:

someone wrote;

> I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy

i'm troubled by this statement and i've been thinking about it all

day...

ya... we're finding out that veganism (raw or cooked) is pushing the

limits healthwise

but have you given any consideration to the fact that optimal personal

health is not the only reason why some people eat a vegan diet

norm )~

...... raw food, simply wonderful .....

July 27, 2004

> RawSeattle , viola <Viola816> wrote:

>

> Sorry if I offended anybody, I didn't mean and I apologies.

hi viola...

please don't take the following personal

you didn't offend me but got me thinking about veganism and i wanted to

point out that health is not the only reason people chose veganism

i have a history of hunting, fishing and farming

i've raised animals as humanely (there's gotta be a better word) as

possible letting them run totally free (no fences)

of course there was always some kinda manipulation to keep them from

running away

one day will butchering chickens i had a flash of my chopping off the

head of my recently deceased grandmother (i think it was her way of

telling me to stop killing animals)

that was the last time i've eaten flesh, 28 years ago...

hope my story isn't too graphic but that's why i'm vegan : )

> What I

> said was I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy TO ME.

i don't know that i have either but then i don't know what a ''healthy''

person looks like, if a truly healthy human even exists anymore : /

> Norm, again, I wasn't speaking about veganizm, I was speaking about

> RAW veganizm. In most cases veganizm has nothing to do with health

> issues, but RAW veganizm is the extreme people go to in order to be

> healthier (not always, but often).

considering the nutritional quality of our foods, i feel raw veganism

has more potential for health than cooked veganism

i see disease/sickness (whatever it's called?) coming from two causes

one... sickness from eating foods that our bodies have a tough time

processing and some of that food ends up being waste in our systems

(habitat for disease)

two... nutritional deficiencies from eating substandard food and i think

this is where raw veganism becomes challenging becuz raw vegans tend to

eat pretty lite

>I want to be healthier, doesn't

> matter how long will I live I want to be active and healthy while I

> am here in this world. And I want all people to be healthy and

> active. If the KEY is raw veganizm, then I will go for it, and I will

> promote it, but so far I didn't find any proof.

there doesn't appear to be a ''one size fits all'' when it comes to diet

keep in mind that humans are in the process of adapting to changes in

lifestyle...

we have evolved on different diets and in different environments all

over the planet

we've gone from raw hunter gathers to being totally dependant on shipped

in food (much of it being processed) and living in buildings

it probably started when we learned to use fire...

with fire, we were able live out of our natural environment and eat

things (cooked) that would be hard to eat raw...

when we exhausted the forageable food supply we developed cultivation

and so we've pretty much got away from living a natural lifestyle like

other animals on the planet

most animals on the planet don't run inside when it rains or wear

clothes, etc.

they gather and eat their food on the spot using only their bodies

> There are people living in mountains in Georgia (country,

> not US state) remaining active at age 150 years old.

i question your source of information (or mine but i just read

somewhere that the oldest person on the planet recently died at about

114

> Then finally they discovered those people have never heard

> about World War II, which means low stress life.

that musta been awhile back

looks like another watermelon day coming up...

norm )~

...... raw food, simply wonderful .....

July 28, 2004

> I didn't meet yet 100% raw vegan who looks healthy TO ME.

Way back, when I was on a standard American diet, I thought people like

me looked healthy. Now, after becoming healthier (stopped getting colds

and flues, got off all my prescriptions, no more high blood pressure,

migraines, ulcer, etc.) and at the same time trimming down a bit, those

same people look bloated to me. Even old pictures of me I perceive as

bloated. Even if I am thinner now and appear to some to be unhealthy, I

feel better, have more energy, am more agile, can do more, and AM

healthier, etc. So, I recognize it's all about perception. On very rare

occasions, I am told I am too thin or look unhealthy. The comment

usually comes from someone who is obese and on medications with chronic

diseases, etc. So, while we may " look " unhealthy to some, it is more

important to me to BE and feel healthy and be able to live a more

vibrant life and not be burdened with lower energy and the diseases of

my old life. As time goes on and more people try this lifestyle, we

learn more, and it becomes more popular, I suspect the general

perception of a " healthy person " will change. When I look into the

faces of people on a raw food diet, while they may appear thin, they

also appear far more vibrant than the general population.

> Norm, again, I wasn't speaking about veganizm, I was speaking about

> RAW veganizm. In most cases veganizm has nothing to do with health

> issues, but RAW veganizm is the extreme people go to in order to be

> healthier (not always, but often).

FYI, I actually began my path towards a plant-based diet (before going

raw) because of my desire for improved health. It did help, as did the

raw food vegan diet.

July 30, 2004

Jeff, SAD is not cooked food, it's junk food, it's doughnuts, ice-cream, cakes,

hotdogs, french fries, hamburgers, coke, coffee, pizza, chips and candies. This

is what American kids have to eat at school at lunch, unless they bring their

own lunch.

60 % raw does NOT mean that the rest 40% is SAD. Jeff you are going from one

extreme to another extreme. You do not have to torture yourself and look skinny

like death in order to be healthy. I know people have reasons why they go to

extremes, and it's not my business what those reasons are, i just wish everybody

to be healthy and fix all their health problems.

love and blessings,

viola

Jeff Rogers <jeff wrote: