Guest guest Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 I whole-heartedly agree with your statements, Brian. Lynn, if you are concerned with the animal suffering and lack of ethics that goes into every bag and can of commercial dog and cat food (I've studied this issue as one of my passions for over 14 years), consider buying a locally made raw-meat based diet for your cat. If you've ever read the Pottinger studies on feline nutrition, you will learn that cats thrive on a raw meat based diet, and struggle tremendously with illness that lasts just a few generations (before they all die) when on a cooked diet. He did not study a vegetarian diet - as this was not his focus - but I can only imagine how very ill those cats would have become over the long-term without access to natural game (mice, birds, etc.). A raw meat based diet is so important to cats' long-term wellness. To learn more about feline nutrition, please visit these very informative sites: www.felinefuture.com http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/nutr.htm http://www.holisticat.com/articles.html http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm In my years of experience, I have seen miracle cures and astonishing changes in chronically ill cat's lives with just this change to a diet nature designed for them to eat. Both my raw fed cats easily and healthfully lived to be in their twenties (after switching at age 9 and age 15 - both were given just 3-6 months and 1 yr to live respectively, but well outlived these expectations with only a change in diet). Their last years they enjoyed incredible, vibrant health - better than they ever experienced during their first, younger years or kitten hood even. The change was so dramatic, I could never imagine not feeding raw to a cat again. Why do I recommend a locally made or home-made diet rather than a large commercial diet? For the farm animals' sake and for ethical reasons. Because marketing is deceptive - it is not truth. ALL nationally distributed, commercially made pet foods, even the natural or high-end foods, are not in full control over where they their fat and protein sources come from. ALL national foods (even Steve's Real Food for Pets - a raw meat diet) are formulated in large pet food processing plants - along with the known unethical/abusive dog food manufacturers like Iams, Science Diet, Purina, Old Roy, etc. These companies absolutely for certain use 4D meats, any and all sorts of rotting and rancid meats from supermarket shelves, and rendered dogs/cats euthanized at shelters and veterinary offices. They render rancid and rotting packaged meat (with the plastic and Styrofoam included) along the farm animals, dogs and cats with their flea collars, tags, cancerous tumors, drugs used on them before they were euthanized and worst of all sodium Phenobarbital (euthanasia solution). Although " natural " pet foods such as Wellness, Nutro and others have a good starting recipe and better intentions on how they want their food to be formulated, since their foods are actually manufactured far away in these large pet food manufacturing plants and what goes into these foods is completely under these pet food manufactures' control - they really can't say with 100% certainty what really is in their pet food, or if their recipes are even being followed as requested. (there was a great article in the Whole Dog Journal about this where the owners of Nutro? admitted this in an interview). Also, the meats used are 100% for certain not organic or free-range or grass-fed - this is a certainty. Those are all little bits of factory farmed animals in those bags and cans of dog/cat food. I have an investigative report that shows which national pet foods have traces of sodium Phenobarbital in them (indicating that euthanized dogs and cats were used in the making of these foods). Nutro is on this list. Many others like Wellness, Solid Gold, etc. were not tested unfortunately - but it would have been interesting to see what their levels were. This doesn't even touch on the real fact that all pet food (canned or bagged) is literally cooked to death. Which destroys natural enzymes, minerals, vitamins and other good stuff found in fresh foods (meat, veggies, etc.) but leaves in the residues of all the nasties described above (like sodium Phenobarbital, plastics, drugs, etc.). More about commercial pet food: http://www.api4animals.org/doc.asp?ID=79 http://www.pcoc.net/dog-food.htm#Food%20Pets%20Die%20For With a locally made or home-made diet you can have full control over what farming methods and pet food ethics you support - by buying humanely-raised meats yourself or by speak directly to the person who makes the food (usually it is one or two people who do everything from formulating the recipes, buying and sourcing the raw ingredients, making and delivering the food - these are tiny businesses that make their foods in their own kitchen). For example, Feed This! (www.feedthis.com) and Jeffrey's Natural Pet Foods (on 18th & Church in SF) use only locally raised grass-fed, range-free and/or organic meats (humanely raised animals that are “certified humane” by 3rd party authorities). Jeffrey buys meat from me (I run a raw food co-op, and fed raw to my animals), and I have actually gone to investigate each and every one of my sources. These are very small family farms that use the humanist methods possible in raising and killing their animals (most of slaughter their own animals on-site in small, USDA certified processing plants on their own land or by friend or trusted neighbor nearby - the animals are never transported crammed in a truck for miles & miles with an uncaring handler). They allow their animals (dog-guarded, pastured lamb and grass-fed beef) to forage and roam on acres and acres of gorgeous natural, organic land for the entirety for their existence - they are never fed commercial feeds, drugged or chemical, and never put into a feed-lot or crammed pen. Additionally, they only " process " a few animals a month - these are not large processing plants by any stretch. My lamb source processes 15 lamb/month at peak season - my beef guy only processes 4-5 at a time every few weeks. These are foods made with care, for all the animals (both domestic and farm animals) AND the land they are raised on. Anyway - I completely understand as a 20+ year ethical vegan, how difficult it is to deal with feeding a carnivorous pet - it is still hard for me sometimes, too. But it's only fair - they were designed by nature to hunt and consume other animals and really, don't we want them to thrive in as close to perfect wellness as they can be, and to respect nature by feeding them an appropriate diet? When I see how incredibly healthy my rescued animals are, that their: * ears are clean and smell good * eyes absolutely shine * teeth never need to be cleaned and are gorgeous pearly whites * coats are shiny, clean and flea-free without the use of flea-drugs * muscle tone is well, sexy * energy is vibrant and unbelievable sometimes for their ages * are calm, gentle and satisfied companions * immune systems are operating at its peak (wounds can heal literally overnight, hair re-grows very quickly, they are never sick (and not vaccinated), our vet bills are pretty much nil) * poops are small, odorless and decompose in days, not months or years (it actually looks a lot like wild-animal scat and unlike dog/cat food poop, it turns white and then to falls to dust to fed the earth minerals in a matter of days - whereas dog/cat food poop remains for months or years a smelly glop of the earth, only turning fuzzy after a while, but still remains for along time - it doesn't at all decompose like a raw fed animals feces does) - it is well worth it. As ethical vegans, the very best we can do to honor our carnivorous companion animals, farm animals, the earth and all animals is to be in control of and educated about the animals we choose to feed to our carnivores. I do hope you reconsider, or perhaps consider adopting an abused or at-risk/homeless natural herbivore/vegetarian animal like a dove, tortoise or iguana - so you can comfortably live within your ethics along with your animal companions. Best wishes to you and your cats. Kasie > Since you are still just " considering " the issue, consider this: > If you could ask your cats if they want to be vegan, would they > say yes? There is a reason that they have their alimentary > tract, razor sharp teeth, and retractile sharp claws. They are > hunters by nature. > > --Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 First of all a cat was bred for domestic pleasure...it is not a wild animal. You are the boss of that creature. You can feed it anything it will eat. Vegan cat food is a welcome menu choice for cats because it gives the animal nourishment without causing the problems related to compassion and the environment, that regular meat based diets do. Cats are carnivores, that is a fact. It has an instinctive urge to hunt, also a fact. I say let the animal hunt mice if you can stomach it, but I say NO to letting humans do the hunting for animals.To me, humans hunting meat for animals is HIGHLY unnatural. You are the boss of that bred for pleasure pet. YOU can teach it to eat what YOU want it to eat. Remember, a cat's primary purpose in most households is to give the owner pleasure and happiness. Its primary purpose is not to eat a mushy pulp of mechanically separated chicken pork and beef byproducts. YOU'RE THE BOSS not the other way around! The New with improved product search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 > Remember, a cat's primary purpose in most households > is to give the owner pleasure and happiness. So, as long as the " primary purpose " is met, then other aspects of the pet's life are secondary and expendable? Agreed, a pet shouldn't be the boss, but I strongly feel a pet's pleasure and happiness is just as important as my own. > Its primary purpose is not to eat a mushy pulp of > mechanically separated chicken pork and beef byproducts. Huh? Does anybody think that their pet's " primary purpose " is to eat, whether it be vegan or carnivorous? Wait a minute, does anybody view their pets as having a " primary purpose " ? Ok, ok, I guess at least one person does. > YOU'RE THE BOSS not the other way around! Gosh, I feel so empowered! I think I feel a raise coming on. Perhaps even some stock options and a Christmas bonus. After all, those employees have fulfilled their " primary purpose " :-) --Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 I really do appreciate a sense of humor, but you are coming off as disrespectful, publicly joking at someone else's serious comments (in this message and your subsequent one). Is there a reason you don't want anyone to take these comments seriously? Why are you being so disrespectful toward someone else's views? There is a way to respectfully disagree. Why don't you try one of them? Marcy > > Remember, a cat's primary purpose in most households > > is to give the owner pleasure and happiness. > > So, as long as the " primary purpose " is met, then other aspects of the pet's life are secondary and expendable? Agreed, a pet shouldn't be the boss, but I strongly feel a pet's pleasure and happiness is just as important as my own. > > > Its primary purpose is not to eat a mushy pulp of > > mechanically separated chicken pork and beef byproducts. > > Huh? Does anybody think that their pet's " primary purpose " is to eat, whether it be vegan or carnivorous? Wait a minute, does anybody view their pets as having a " primary purpose " ? Ok, ok, I guess at least one person does. > > > YOU'RE THE BOSS not the other way around! > > Gosh, I feel so empowered! I think I feel a raise coming on. Perhaps even some stock options and a Christmas bonus. After all, those employees have fulfilled their " primary purpose " :-) > > --Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Hmmm, while i know this topic has already been oft responded-to, i've been biting my virtual lip up to the point of Marcy's response to Brian's. I found the original email to which Brian was responding quite offensive-- that someone on this list would so strongly assert their ownership/control of another being to the point of that creature's existential purpose being solely that which is decided by their master, errr 'owner' (my 'bad,' just rings so strongly to me of the logic which has motivated things like human enslavement), is really quite disheartening-- so it seemed to me that Brian's method of responding was actually a tame, playful attempt to address statements that some of us have definite issues with. i love the beings i conhabitate with and take pleasure in theirs (pleasure). i am not, nor would i want to be, their 'owners,' as i feel that approaching interspecies relations from a perspective of appreciation more aptly allows for potential mutuality and/or insight. Marcy, you asked Brian, " Is there a reason you don't want anyone to take these comments seriously? " Perhaps i'm now the one who's out of line or 'disrespectful,' but i want to answer that i DO hope others don't take these comments seriously, as i feel they are detrimental to both oneself with respect to doing potential harm to the possibility of being awake to the beauty within those we seek to control, as well as to every other being we encounter-- if our intentions are control, we often undermine more than we create. anyhoo, i'm sure i've probably pissed at least a few people off, but i just had to put this out there. i earnestly hope happiness, insight, and FREEDOM are daily encountered and appreciated by all, amanda Fwd: I really do appreciate a sense of humor, but you are coming off as disrespectful, publicly joking at someone else's serious comments (in this message and your subsequent one). Is there a reason you don't want anyone to take these comments seriously? Why are you being so disrespectful toward someone else's views? There is a way to respectfully disagree. Why don't you try one of them? Marcy > > Remember, a cat's primary purpose in most households > > is to give the owner pleasure and happiness. > > So, as long as the " primary purpose " is met, then other aspects of the pet's life are secondary and expendable? Agreed, a pet shouldn't be the boss, but I strongly feel a pet's pleasure and happiness is just as important as my own. > > > Its primary purpose is not to eat a mushy pulp of > > mechanically separated chicken pork and beef byproducts. > > Huh? Does anybody think that their pet's " primary purpose " is to eat, whether it be vegan or carnivorous? Wait a minute, does anybody view their pets as having a " primary purpose " ? Ok, ok, I guess at least one person does. > > > YOU'RE THE BOSS not the other way around! > > Gosh, I feel so empowered! I think I feel a raise coming on. Perhaps even some stock options and a Christmas bonus. After all, those employees have fulfilled their " primary purpose " :-) > > --Brian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 On 10/21/03, amanda <equalismkitty wrote: > Hmmm, while i know this topic has already been oft responded-to, > i've been biting my virtual lip up to the point of Marcy's response to > Brian's. I found the original email to which Brian was responding > quite offensive-- that someone on this list would so strongly assert > their ownership/control of another being to the point of that > creature's existential purpose being solely that which is decided by > their master, errr 'owner' (my 'bad,' just rings so strongly to me of > the logic which has motivated things like human enslavement), is > really quite disheartening-- so it seemed to me that Brian's method of > responding was actually a tame, playful attempt to address statements > that some of us have definite issues with. i love the beings i > conhabitate with and take pleasure in theirs (pleasure). i am not, nor > would i want to be, their 'owners,' as i feel that approaching > interspecies relations from a perspective of appreciation more aptly > allows for potential mutuality and/or insight. i strongly agree with you. i also found the " ownership " comments to be highly disturbing. and i also bit my lip and exclaimed outrage at my laptop (as i always do when this topic comes up in any veggie community) rather than alienate my fellow committed vegans. (though i probably did an okay job of alienating whoever i was going to alienate the last time this topic came up.) another way i think about it is this - when i'm trying to decide if something is or isn't vegan, i ask myself " are my actions good for the animals? " if my actions are putting the health of an animal who i consider to be family at risk, then it's not good for the animals. animal rights starts at home. simple as that. anyway, here's what i wrote in response to the " we are the boss " comment, and decided initially not to post: .... how different is this attitude from the paternalistic thinking that is currently driving the destruction of our environment? why not extend that out further a step or two? aren't we the boss of the forest and the streams? why not chop down every tree and pollute the water simply because we've declared ourselves " the boss " of everything that brings us pleasure and utility? i realize that that's not what you're advocating, but can you see how these beliefs all come from the same source? you can't declare dominion over some of the non-human world without opening the door to a complete human-centric ownership of nature and all other animals. and once we get there, we might as well throw out ethical veganism and any sort of environmentalism, because they're simply not valid within that framework of thought. it's true that we had some part in their development but we are not gods. we did not " invent " cats or create them out of nothing. if you believe in animal rights, then it follows that you should believe in not interfering with an animal's freedom to choose his or her own food. even if you disagree with the concequences of that choice. otherwise the only other solution is to not keep companion animals at home. vegan cat food, however, as a compromise, is a poor one (and dangerous, if you consider the complete lack of studies indicating safety). i know for a fact that my cat would not eat vegan. i leave out my vegan food and she never touches it. on the other hand, she is constantly trying to get into her food between meals. she's always looking at birds through the window, waiting for them to come just a little bit closer so she can kill them. when i feed her canned cat food, she devours it and leaves not one single crumb. i am clear what she would choose without my prompting, and i have no right to force my belief system on her without her consent. also, cats don't think of us as different animals: we're all living together in a cat family, in their minds, and we're the parents, providing for them. it's natural, as far as they're concerned, for us to hunt on their behalf. .... and then i stopped there and didn't finish or edit, because i figured that no one's mind would be changed by the discussion. as is always the case when discussing extremes. -- steve simitzis : /sim' - i - jees/ pala : saturn5 productions www.steve.org : 415.282.9979 hath the daemon spawn no fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 Well, maybe like humans, cats are all different. And therefore, some cats eat, or even like the vegan food. Some people even cook it for their cats. Can we agree then, in that case, at least one, two or even 3 of us can avoid contributing to the suffering of meat-industry animals? I too agree that we should no more be the boss of cats...................than we are of cows. It's an imperialist mind-set to take a superior position in the universe, isn't it? So, then: who decides whether the cow gets it, or the cats' owners take steps to find a vegan food they will eat? Some of us don't buy leather. Some of us still eat cheese. I encourage everyone to push themselves just one step further than their comfort zone, and I applaud everyone who continues in their path toward a better world for food animals and all the critters on our planet - including us humans! Marcy - " Steve Simitzis " <steve " amanda " <equalismkitty Cc: <sfBAVeg > Tuesday, October 21, 2003 5:29 PM Re: [sfBAVeg] Re: Vegan Cats > i strongly agree with you. i also found the " ownership " comments to be > highly disturbing. and i also bit my lip and exclaimed outrage at my laptop > (as i always do when this topic comes up in any veggie community) rather > than alienate my fellow committed vegans. (though i probably did an okay > job of alienating whoever i was going to alienate the last time this > topic came up.) > > another way i think about it is this - when i'm trying to decide if > something is or isn't vegan, i ask myself " are my actions good for the > animals? " if my actions are putting the health of an animal who i > consider to be family at risk, then it's not good for the animals. > > animal rights starts at home. simple as that. > > anyway, here's what i wrote in response to the " we are the boss " > comment, and decided initially not to post: > > ... > > how different is this attitude from the paternalistic thinking that is > currently driving the destruction of our environment? why not extend > that out further a step or two? aren't we the boss of the forest and > the streams? why not chop down every tree and pollute the water simply > because we've declared ourselves " the boss " of everything that > brings us pleasure and utility? > > i realize that that's not what you're advocating, but can you see how > these beliefs all come from the same source? you can't declare > dominion over some of the non-human world without opening the door to > a complete human-centric ownership of nature and all other > animals. and once we get there, we might as well throw out ethical > veganism and any sort of environmentalism, because they're simply not > valid within that framework of thought. > > it's true that we had some part in their development but we are not > gods. we did not " invent " cats or create them out of nothing. if you > believe in animal rights, then it follows that you should believe in > not interfering with an animal's freedom to choose his or her own food. > even if you disagree with the concequences of that choice. otherwise > the only other solution is to not keep companion animals at home. vegan > cat food, however, as a compromise, is a poor one (and dangerous, if you > consider the complete lack of studies indicating safety). > > i know for a fact that my cat would not eat vegan. i leave out my > vegan food and she never touches it. on the other hand, she is > constantly trying to get into her food between meals. she's always > looking at birds through the window, waiting for them to come just a > little bit closer so she can kill them. when i feed her canned cat > food, she devours it and leaves not one single crumb. i am clear what > she would choose without my prompting, and i have no right to force my > belief system on her without her consent. > > also, cats don't think of us as different animals: we're all living > together in a cat family, in their minds, and we're the parents, > providing for them. it's natural, as far as they're concerned, for us > to hunt on their behalf. > > ... > > and then i stopped there and didn't finish or edit, because i figured > that no one's mind would be changed by the discussion. as is always > the case when discussing extremes. > > -- > > steve simitzis : /sim' - i - jees/ > pala : saturn5 productions > www.steve.org : 415.282.9979 > hath the daemon spawn no fire? > > > > > > BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find > support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for more > veggie info.... > > Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ (/) and More! > > http://www.bayareaveg.org/ > > BAV Message board (discussions and carpool posts) > http://www.generationv.org/forum > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 In a message dated 10/21/2003 9:45:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, imgreen03 writes: Well, maybe like humans, cats are all different. And therefore, some cats eat, or even like the vegan food. Some people even cook it for their cats. Can we agree then, in that case, at least one, two or even 3 of us can avoid contributing to the suffering of meat-industry animals? Hi Marcy. Of course, all cats are individuals and thus are different from one another. Different to some extent that is. Just as there are no humans who can be healthy on a diet consisting of nothing but chickens (despite the fact that humans are different from one another in other respects), I think there are some limits on the extent to which cats may differ from one another. One respect in which I do not think they differ is in being carnivores. Other emails have gone into the support for this (such as their teeth, claws, relationship to other kinds of cats,etc), so I won't go into detail here. Even if cats were to love vegan food, I wouldn't be convinced that this was a nutritionally sound, much less optimal, diet. Lots of children would love to eat candy for breakfast, lunch and dinner but I don't think this would indicate that this is the best diet for them either. Best regards, Stephanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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