Per Nora Kramers Request

[Guest guest]

A couple of days ago my copy of Obligate Carnivore arrived from Amazon.com.

Last night I finished reading it, so I thought I'd give a brief review. Even if

you have no interest in carnivorous cat issues, humorous or otherwise, here's a

quote worth contemplating - " The point of veganism is to reduce the amount of

animal suffering in the world, not to reduce the amount for which you,

personally, can be held accountable " . Is that the point of *your* veganism?

Anyway, on to los gatos.

 

If you are an ethical vegan and a cat owner who is completely distraught about

the fact that your loving, purring little furball would eat another animal, then

absolutely read this book. No doubt reading this book will allow you to justify

feeding your cat a vegan diet, and you'll sleep better at night. Then you will

enjoy the rest of your cat's years. Buy this book.

 

If, however, you believe that the true nature of a cat is to be a carnivorous

animal (ironically domesticated by mankind because of, not despite, it's hunting

ability), then it's unlikely this book will change your opinion. Although the

issues are well thought out and entertainingly described, I would not consider

*all* of them to be " persuasively " addressed.

 

A couple of quick points, for example. On several occasions, Gillen discusses

moral equals (pg 15), " If someone wouldn't eat their cat, and a cat and a

chicken are moral equals, then they shouldn't eat a chicken either. " Does that

mean that the cat's moral values (assuming animals have such things as moral

values) are inferior to ours? Of course not. If animals have moral values,

they are not superior or inferior to ours, they are just different.

 

Another statement worth contemplating is, " And cats, it should be noted, have a

strong hunting instinct, but not an instinct to eat meat " Really? Hmm.

 

One point that's discussed quite a bit in the book, and the core of much of the

dilema, is the point of being natural. No need to buy the book on this one, you

can read Gillen's words in the FAQ at http://www.vegancats.com . To quickly

summarize, Gillen states that nothing about your cats existance, including their

canned meat diet, is natural anyway, so why not feed them an unnatural vegan

diet also? Pursuasive?

 

--Brian

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Glad you picked the book up, Brian!

 

To me, I think a major point of the book is weighing our inclination to

cling to what is “natural” (in this case, factory-farmed animal parts

ground up into kibble or canned mush and poured into their bowls) and,

perhaps, what would be our dog or cat's preferred food, versus what does

the least amount of harm to animals in general while still providing

healthy, nutritious food for the animals entrusted to our care.

 

The same arguments made in favor of feeding cats meat are also made by

meat eaters to justify what they eat and to argue against vegetarianism

or veganism. Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, it's only

natural, right? There are of course many reasons to believe that it's

not “natural” for humans to eat meat, such as our intestines, our teeth,

our lack of claws, etc., but is that even relevant? What if we were

“meant” to eat meat? Would you still be veg’n? What if your son or

daughter preferred the taste of hamburgers to veggie burgers? Would you

buy them hamburgers? If we—and they--can live healthy lives without

supporting slaughtering animals, isn't not supporting these cruel

industries the more ethical thing to do? How is it different whether

we’re buying those animal products for ourselves, for our kids, for a

homeless shelter, or for our cat or dog?

 

At some level it comes down to the same thing it comes down to for

humans: choosing a possible palate preference over the misery endured by

factory-farmed animals.

 

By “moral equals,” the quote Brian referred to, I believe Gillen was

referring to our own obligation to value the life of our own dog or cat

with a faceless, nameless chicken, pig, cow, or some other animal whom

we will never know or meat but may suffer and die based on our

purchasing choices.

 

My dog (a Lab mix) has been vegan for 3 years and ate half vegan

food/half regular food for another 3 years before then. She’s 13 and in

great shape—perfect teeth, great coat, not overweight, only a little bit

of arthritis. I have friends who have had vegan cats for years with

similar success stories. Why not at least try it? www.vegancats.com

<http://www.vegancats.com/> has a starter pack for dogs and cats, where

you can sample different types of available food to see if they like it

before investing in a large bag you’re afraid they won’t eat. The

starter pack also comes with “Obligate Carnivore,” which also addresses

practical health concerns.

 

With all the talk from previous postings about feeding our dogs and cats

” humanely raised animals” as a compromise, I was starting to wonder

whether we shouldn’t all not bother with veganism or vegetarianism and

just buy these products produced so “humanely.” Jed Gillen offers a

much better compromise: if you agree with half of what he says, feed

your dog or cat half vegan food and half regular food. If you agree

with 75% of what he says, feed 75-25 vegan food. Hope people will at

least give it a try.

 

Anyway, it’s great to have this discussion going, but this post has been

monopolizing this list for a while. I hope Brian and many others will

join us at our book club discussion on Sun, 11/2, from 6-8 at Urban

Forage, a raw, vegan café at 254 Fillmore St. (at Haight).

 

Nora

 

 

 

Brian Jensen [live2cycle]

Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:52 AM

sfBAVeg

[sfBAVeg] Per Nora Kramers Request

 

A couple of days ago my copy of Obligate Carnivore arrived from

Amazon.com. Last night I finished reading it, so I thought I'd give a

brief review. Even if you have no interest in carnivorous cat issues,

humorous or otherwise, here's a quote worth contemplating - " The point

of veganism is to reduce the amount of animal suffering in the world,

not to reduce the amount for which you, personally, can be held

accountable " . Is that the point of *your* veganism? Anyway, on to los

gatos.

 

If you are an ethical vegan and a cat owner who is completely distraught

about the fact that your loving, purring little furball would eat

another animal, then absolutely read this book. No doubt reading this

book will allow you to justify feeding your cat a vegan diet, and you'll

sleep better at night. Then you will enjoy the rest of your cat's

years. Buy this book.

 

If, however, you believe that the true nature of a cat is to be a

carnivorous animal (ironically domesticated by mankind because of, not

despite, it's hunting ability), then it's unlikely this book will change

your opinion. Although the issues are well thought out and

entertainingly described, I would not consider *all* of them to be

" persuasively " addressed.

 

A couple of quick points, for example. On several occasions, Gillen

discusses moral equals (pg 15), " If someone wouldn't eat their cat, and

a cat and a chicken are moral equals, then they shouldn't eat a chicken

either. " Does that mean that the cat's moral values (assuming animals

have such things as moral values) are inferior to ours? Of course not.

If animals have moral values, they are not superior or inferior to ours,

they are just different.

 

Another statement worth contemplating is, " And cats, it should be noted,

have a strong hunting instinct, but not an instinct to eat meat "

Really? Hmm.

 

One point that's discussed quite a bit in the book, and the core of much

of the dilema, is the point of being natural. No need to buy the book

on this one, you can read Gillen's words in the FAQ at

http://www.vegancats.com . To quickly summarize, Gillen states that

nothing about your cats existance, including their canned meat diet, is

natural anyway, so why not feed them an unnatural vegan diet also?

Pursuasive?

 

--Brian

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On 10/22/03, Nora Kramer <nora wrote:

 

> To me, I think a major point of the book is weighing our inclination to

> cling to what is “natural” (in this case, factory-farmed animal parts

> ground up into kibble or canned mush and poured into their bowls) and,

> perhaps, what would be our dog or cat's preferred food, versus what does

> the least amount of harm to animals in general while still providing

> healthy, nutritious food for the animals entrusted to our care.

 

and exactly which long-term, peer reviewed scientific studies support

the claim that a vegan diet for cats is healthy and nutritious? while

i would be happy to read one, i can't find any. not one. all i've ever

found has been anecdotal evidence that supports both sides ( " my cat

eats vegan and she's doing well " or " my cat ate vegan but she died due

to complications caused by the diet " ).

 

the fact that even vegancats.com advises you to regularly monitor the

pH of your cat (and sells kits to do it!) speaks volumes to me.

 

> The same arguments made in favor of feeding cats meat are also made by

> meat eaters to justify what they eat and to argue against vegetarianism

> or veganism. Humans have eaten meat for thousands of years, it's only

> natural, right? There are of course many reasons to believe that it's

> not “natural” for humans to eat meat, such as our intestines, our teeth,

> our lack of claws, etc., but is that even relevant?

 

well, the most compelling evidence shows that humans are pretty close

to being omnivores, and i side with research that points out that even

as omnivores, it's more optimal and healthy for us to eat vegan.

 

contrast this to cats: there are no arguments that indicate that

cats ate anything but a diet consisting primarily of meat at any point

during their evolution. likewise, there are no arguments that indicate

that a vegan diet is *more* optimal than their natural diet.

 

dogs are a different matter altogether. like us, they tend to be more

omnivorous. (and dogs can really put the " omni " back in " omnivorous " ).

 

regardless, you can't use parallel arguments to support the case for a

vegan diet across multiple species. it just doesn't work. we are all

different beings with our own needs and requirements.

 

> What if we were

> “meant” to eat meat? Would you still be veg’n?

 

some people argue that we are meant to eat meat. i disagree with them,

so does a lot of research. however, i am able to understand and

participate in the debate, and come to my own conclusions, after

weighing the evidence. unlike my cat, who has no ability to know

that a debate about her diet even exists, and even if she could read

the debate, would be quite dismayed to see no research supporting

the claims of vegan cat advocates.

 

> What if your son or

> daughter preferred the taste of hamburgers to veggie burgers? Would you

> buy them hamburgers? If we—and they--can live healthy lives without

> supporting slaughtering animals, isn't not supporting these cruel

> industries the more ethical thing to do? How is it different whether

> we’re buying those animal products for ourselves, for our kids, for a

> homeless shelter, or for our cat or dog?

 

you are making a false analogy, however, because our children are able

to leave the house (past a certain age) and purchase their own food or

otherwise arrange for their own well-being.

 

also, at some point, we are obligated as individuals to guide family

and friends towards choices we agree with, but we have no right to

force others to choose our ethics. what you are saying is, we have

a right to force children to choose our ethics, therefore we have

the same right to force animals to choose our ethics, and i am saying

that such logic amounts to tyranny.

 

we are also able to interact with our children using language. we can

assist them in making choices - " well, i disapprove of your interest

in eating meat because it is unhealthy for the following reasons. however

if you come to that decision on your own, you are welcome to follow your

own path, but i will not allow you to use this household for cooking and

storing meat. " a reasonable position to take, right? now, imagine having

that conversation - which completely respects the right of the individual

to make their own choices (including bad choices) - with a dog or

cat: animals who are completely unable to speak any human language.

 

> At some level it comes down to the same thing it comes down to for

> humans: choosing a possible palate preference over the misery endured by

> factory-farmed animals.

 

so don't feed your animal friends food produced by factory farms. it's

not like you have to choose between iams or carrots. you can allow

your cat to hunt, or you can purchase humanely raised meat and make

the food yourself, or you can go to rainbow and find a brand that

produces quality food, or you can go to jeffrey's and purchase

hand-made raw cat food. lots of choices out there.

 

> By “moral equals,” the quote Brian referred to, I believe Gillen was

> referring to our own obligation to value the life of our own dog or cat

> with a faceless, nameless chicken, pig, cow, or some other animal whom

> we will never know or meat but may suffer and die based on our

> purchasing choices.

 

so remove the " farm " from the argument. would you feel comfortable

with yourself, knowing you allowed your cat to go outside and hunt

field mice in your yard? can you live with yourself, knowing that

you didn't prevent your cat from killing all the faceless, nameless

mice that she would have eaten even if you weren't in the picture?

 

if one goal of veganism is to reduce harm caused to animals, then

feeding meat to cats is net zero reduction or gain in harm. cats would

kill anyway, left to their own devices.

 

> My dog (a Lab mix) has been vegan for 3 years and ate half vegan

> food/half regular food for another 3 years before then. She’s 13 and in

> great shape—perfect teeth, great coat, not overweight, only a little bit

> of arthritis. I have friends who have had vegan cats for years with

> similar success stories. Why not at least try it? www.vegancats.com

> <http://www.vegancats.com/> has a starter pack for dogs and cats, where

> you can sample different types of available food to see if they like it

> before investing in a large bag you’re afraid they won’t eat. The

> starter pack also comes with “Obligate Carnivore,” which also addresses

> practical health concerns.

 

again, cats are not dogs. the health of your dog does not mean that a

vegan diet is healthy for cats in general. i don't mean to offend, but

your argument is without merit. i'm happy for you and your dog, but

where is any rigorous research that says: a vegan diet is safe,

healthy, and as optimal or better for cats in both the long and short

term?

 

and by research, i mean a true study - not a survey or anecdotal

evidence. i've challenged vegan cat advocates to produce such evidence

and i've yet to hear anything back. i've done my own searches to find

something compelling that would support an argument i disagree with,

yet i can't find anything. produce the objective evidence, and i will

consider the other side. until then, all the philosphical arguments

in the world distract from the issue.

 

> With all the talk from previous postings about feeding our dogs and cats

> ” humanely raised animals” as a compromise, I was starting to wonder

> whether we shouldn’t all not bother with veganism or vegetarianism and

> just buy these products produced so “humanely.” Jed Gillen offers a

> much better compromise: if you agree with half of what he says, feed

> your dog or cat half vegan food and half regular food. If you agree

> with 75% of what he says, feed 75-25 vegan food. Hope people will at

> least give it a try.

 

sorry but i don't want the health of my cat to suffer because of

abstract philosophical ideals. i switched my cat from dry food (which

is mostly grain with some meat filler) to wet food (almost completely

meat), and since then, she is no longer obese. i made the switch to an

all-meat, high protein, high fat diet following a vet's conference

last year, wherein studies were presented that described exactly why

american cats tend to have more health problems (obesity, diabetes,

urinary tract problems, etc) than european cats. the conclusion:

american cats eat carbs, grains, and assorted plant matter that they

wouldn't eat otherwise. european cats do not.

 

now that i understand the virtues of feeding my cat a near-natural

diet, i will never go back. and after hearing horror stories from

friends who have lost their cats to a vegan diet, i will continue to

adamantly protest people who impose this diet on their cats, in the

complete absence of rigorous scientific research.

 

as an aside, while i have not read 'obligate carnivore', i do plan to

at some point, just to keep in the habit of reading books that

disagree with my personal viewpoint. i have, however, read

vegancats.com and plenty of other literature supporting that decision,

so i'm familiar with the arguments and the debate.

 

> Anyway, it’s great to have this discussion going, but this post has been

> monopolizing this list for a while. I hope Brian and many others will

> join us at our book club discussion on Sun, 11/2, from 6-8 at Urban

> Forage, a raw, vegan café at 254 Fillmore St. (at Haight).

>

> Nora

>

>

>

> Brian Jensen [live2cycle]

> Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:52 AM

> sfBAVeg

> [sfBAVeg] Per Nora Kramers Request

>

> A couple of days ago my copy of Obligate Carnivore arrived from

> Amazon.com. Last night I finished reading it, so I thought I'd give a

> brief review. Even if you have no interest in carnivorous cat issues,

> humorous or otherwise, here's a quote worth contemplating - " The point

> of veganism is to reduce the amount of animal suffering in the world,

> not to reduce the amount for which you, personally, can be held

> accountable " . Is that the point of *your* veganism? Anyway, on to los

> gatos.

>

> If you are an ethical vegan and a cat owner who is completely distraught

> about the fact that your loving, purring little furball would eat

> another animal, then absolutely read this book. No doubt reading this

> book will allow you to justify feeding your cat a vegan diet, and you'll

> sleep better at night. Then you will enjoy the rest of your cat's

> years. Buy this book.

>

> If, however, you believe that the true nature of a cat is to be a

> carnivorous animal (ironically domesticated by mankind because of, not

> despite, it's hunting ability), then it's unlikely this book will change

> your opinion. Although the issues are well thought out and

> entertainingly described, I would not consider *all* of them to be

> " persuasively " addressed.

>

> A couple of quick points, for example. On several occasions, Gillen

> discusses moral equals (pg 15), " If someone wouldn't eat their cat, and

> a cat and a chicken are moral equals, then they shouldn't eat a chicken

> either. " Does that mean that the cat's moral values (assuming animals

> have such things as moral values) are inferior to ours? Of course not.

> If animals have moral values, they are not superior or inferior to ours,

> they are just different.

>

> Another statement worth contemplating is, " And cats, it should be noted,

> have a strong hunting instinct, but not an instinct to eat meat "

> Really? Hmm.

>

> One point that's discussed quite a bit in the book, and the core of much

> of the dilema, is the point of being natural. No need to buy the book

> on this one, you can read Gillen's words in the FAQ at

> http://www.vegancats.com . To quickly summarize, Gillen states that

> nothing about your cats existance, including their canned meat diet, is

> natural anyway, so why not feed them an unnatural vegan diet also?

> Pursuasive?

>

> --Brian

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Wednesday, October 22, 2003, at 09:51 AM, Brian Jensen wrote:

 

> One point that's discussed quite a bit in the book, and the core of

> much of the dilema, is the point of being natural. No need to buy the

> book on this one, you can read Gillen's words in the FAQ at

> http://www.vegancats.com . To quickly summarize, Gillen states that

> nothing about your cats existance, including their canned meat diet,

> is natural anyway, so why not feed them an unnatural vegan diet also?

 

 

I think it is unnatural to have fish cat food. Cats can't normally go

fishing so how can that part of their diet? I think the natural

(macrobiotic) diet for a cat is rodents. Having beef and lamb cat food

is not good either. In England rabbit cat food is popular.

 

So vegan cats don't make sense to me. Vegan dogs, is okay.

Just my 2 cents.

 

 

tony

[Guest guest]

> I think it is unnatural to have fish cat food. Cats can't

> normally go fishing so how can that part of their diet?

> I think the natural (macrobiotic) diet for a cat is rodents.

> Having beef and lamb cat food is not good either.

 

That's pretty much what Gillen says (pg 52). He even jokes

that " Friskies doesn't make a Live Rodent, Bird and Insect

formulation. " In a subsequent sentence he questions whether cow or

chicken meat is automatically a better substitute for mouse or insect

meat. I think it's interesting that Gillen left birds out of the

last part of the sentence. Perhaps chickens, being birds, are an

appropriate dietary substitute for birds a cat might naturally hunt

and eat.

 

--Brian

[Guest guest]

On 10/22/03, Tony Martin <tony wrote:

 

> I think it is unnatural to have fish cat food. Cats can't normally go

> fishing so how can that part of their diet? I think the natural

> (macrobiotic) diet for a cat is rodents. Having beef and lamb cat food

> is not good either. In England rabbit cat food is popular.

 

cats actually have been known to snag the occasional fish if they live on

islands or near a body of water. a cat with a fish in his or her mouth

is not an uncommon site on the greek islands.

 

but in principle, i agree, i never feed cows or sheep to my cat. i do

feed her birds, however, which they normally would go after. if there

were a rodent cat food product available, i would purchase that in a

second.

 

>

> So vegan cats don't make sense to me. Vegan dogs, is okay.

> Just my 2 cents.

>

>

> tony

>

>

>

>

> BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find

> support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for

more

> veggie info....

>

> Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ (/) and More!

>

> http://www.bayareaveg.org/

>

> BAV Message board (discussions and carpool posts)

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>

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