My neighbor is killing chickens in her kitchen...

December 26, 2003

Hello all --

I've just joined the group, and was hoping that some of you could

share information or opinions about this situation. My wife and I

live on the border of the Tenderloin and Nob Hill, in an old, 15-unit

apartment building. A few months ago a family just over from Hong

Kong moved into the apartment directly below us. Once or twice a

week we'd hear a tremendous squawking from the airwell; we presumed

that seagulls were on the roof, fighting over some food. Eventually

we put two and two together and figured out that the noises coincided

with the open-air markets at UN Plaza, the neighbors coming in with

large shopping bags, and the sound of chopping from their kitchen.

When we figured it out, we told our landlord (another Hong Kong

immigrant, who doesn't live in our building) about the situation, and

she promised to speak to the neighbors and tell them that killing

animals in their apartment was not allowed. We think that she

actually did so, but apparently it had no effect. A couple of hours

ago, the noises started again, and when we went out onto the exterior

stairs and looked through their kitchen window, we could see them

killing a chicken in their sink. My wife and I raised quite a

disturbance, I'm afraid; it was not easy watching the poor bird die,

knowing that--not only could we do nothing about it, but the people

couldn't understand a word we were saying.

I've done some research, and I understand that killing " livestock " in

one's apartment is legal, so long as it's for the resident's

consumption (and not for resale). Has anyone else had similar

experiences? Does anyone have any advice about how to approach a

landlord with better ammunition than just our opinion that having

animals killed next door is " disturbing " to us?

BTW--my wife and I have been vegans for 6 years, and I was a

vegetarian before that for about 25 years. We've been involved with

animal rights in one form or another for about 10 years. The only

reason I mention this is to let people know that we already have an

understanding of the larger issues.

Regards --

Robert H.

December 29, 2003

A few years ago my next door neighbor was an asian family who also

killed chickens, in their back yard and it was sickening to hear their

death cries. Unfortunately there is not much you can do about it,

besides moving which I did.

January 9, 2004

A solution to the dilemma.

Hi,

I haven't written to this site in a while but felt compelled to do so

in this case.

I have been vegetarian since I was 15 and vegan since I was 17, I am

currently 32. I have worked around animal rights issues on and off

throughout this period.

My father has been hunting/poaching since before I was born and would

dismember the animals in our kitchen sink. We would often

retrieve 'good looking' roadkill and bring it home and do the same.

Our kitchen was often filled with the smell of dead animals entrails

and the noise of tearing sinew.

As I transitioned to a veggie lifestyle I became increasingly

distressed during these processes, often being moved to tears.

I then visited a factory farm and later a slaughterhouse.

I don't need to explain to any of you the workings of these

hellhouses, but the end result was a healthier respect for my father

(a person who was capable of doing his own kiliing for the sake of

his diet). I also garnered a greater disprespect for those who buy

their chicken breasts plastic wrapped from Safeway. These are people

who are completely removed from the killing process.

Factory farms have found themselves often unwelcome in the countries

of the global south, people know the difference in the condition of

an animal that has been raised in more traditional ways, and that of

an animal which has been fed proceesed food and kept in tight disease

prone quarters.Not that the conditions in less developed countries

are perfect - by no means, but less factory like. People are often

more connected to the land, and to animals in a way that may not

respect their rights as such, but where at least individuals are

taking personal responsibility for their actions.

I see this with your neighbor. If the problem you are facing is with

the thought of your neighbor killing an animal in her kitchen, then I

urge you to think as much on the killing in which all your non-

vegetarian neighbors are complicit. If it is the sound of the

chickens being killed that disturbs you, then block your ears, shut

your windows. Sometimes we all need to turn from reality.

Lastly please take a moment to consider the cultural implications of

your concerns, this is the cultural experiance fo your neighbor, to

have her meat fresh and prepare it herself. I believe it to be at

least as valid/or invalid as that of your neighbor who sits down to

eat his/her frozen chicken entree in the evening.

With respect for your heartfelt concerns,

Marc

January 10, 2004

Marc --

Thanks for your post; I think I understand your points. Your background and

mine sound quite different. I was raised a vegetarian, due to my parent's cult

(Seventh-Day Adventists), and had never eaten meat until I was 13 or 14. Now,

the rest of my family (all of them S-DAs) eat meat in some form, and now I'm a

vegan (and an atheist). Of my 40 years, 25 were spent as a veggie, and the last

6 as a vegan. I too have been involved in AR actions over the past 10 or so

years. Nevertheless, I find that I disagree with your letter. Let me explain.

I think there are two main issues here, and each of them has at least two parts.

First, the " cultural " issue. I totally discount any claims of " culture " being

valid in this case. This is due to two reasons. First, a culture is a human

construct, built up by a certain group in a specific area over the course of

time (usually many years). I do not think that cultures can--or should--be

exportable. The Chinese culture, developed by the Chinese in China over the

course of centuries, which led to them thinking and acting in certain ways, is

no more appropriate to be imported to the United States than it was appropriate

for the Protestant Puritans to import their culture to the United States 400

years ago, when they expected the indigenous peoples to tolerate THEIR culture.

If it was inappropriate then, it is inappropriate now. The only difference is

that the majority, Protestant European settlers have spent the last 400 years

building a culture here (for better or worse). For

other, different cultural groups to presume that they can set up insulated

enclaves here is just as presumptuous. For at least the past 200 years, the

working model of the US has been one of cultural assimilation, not

balkanization. This is a fact that some recent immigrants have yet to learn,

and some liberals are loathe to tell them. The term " melting-pot " is still

valid, so long as there isn't a chicken in it.

The second cultural fallacy is that it is appropriate to excuse certain cultural

practices just because they involve animals. In parts of North Africa, it is a

cultural practice to mutilate the genitals of pubescent girls. In parts of

Oceania, the taking of human heads as war trophies and cannibalization are

cultural practices. In some parts of Africa, human slavery is still practiced.

In India, widows are sometimes encouraged to commit suicide. Most of us in the

West deplore such actions, and if (when) they are practiced in the US, we

rightly condemn them. At the same time, most vegans and AR people deplore

things like Draize tests, dog fighting, and the like, because we know that

animals have very similar experiences to humans--they feel pain, fear, and other

things the way we do. We refuse to accept the artificial distinction between

their suffering and ours. Why is it any different here? An animal suffering is

the same, irrespective of where it is, or what culture is

causing it.

That introduces the other main factor, which is that of the individual animal's

experience. Whether it is more or less " honest " to kill an animal one's self

rather than have a butcher do it does not improve the lot of the animal, only

the person doing the killing. The person who kills an animal at home simply

exchanges the convenience, squeamishness and relative guilt of those who buy a

prepared chicken at Safeway for a " freshness " that is entirely selfish and a

feeling of satisfaction in being more intimately involved in the process. I

understand that there is an element of hypocracy in having another person do

something that one finds too disgusting to do one's self, but the only

participant involved here whose perspective really matters is the animal's, and

they don't care who is feeling more or less honest or guilty or hypocritical. I

can think of no good reason why a person who kills an animal themselves should

feel more positive about their involvement than a person who has

someone else do the killing. The crux of the matter is that both are equally

unethical, while one is slightly more moral, according to our society's mores.

The other point is that these animals experience tremendous stresses that we

cannot yet quantify. I think that the notion that animals killed in the home

suffer less than those sold at Safeway is largely a fallacy. The fact is that

most of the chickens sold at live animal markets are not raised on Old

MacDonald's Farm. They're raised in a very similar environment, and given the

same mistreatment (debeaking, etc.) as their counterparts at Foster Farms. It's

important to remember that no animal is born " domesticated " . A cat or dog, born

into an environment without people is not " domesticated " , and if they are born

into a hostile human environment, they will fear, feel stress, etc., from

humans. (In the same respect, most so-called " wild " animals could be raised

from birth in a positive environment with humans and could be considered

somewhat " domesticated " .) Nevertheless, animals do not seek human company,

unless humans make the effort to not frighten them, and through

repetition, build up trust. This is not the experience of animals commercially

raised for meat, regardless of the method in which they will die.

The fact is that most animals raised for food--specifically here chickens

hatched in commercial farms--fear humans and feel a great amount of stress from

their environment. A chicken that spends its entire life at Foster Farms and is

eventually sold at Safeway lives a life of terror that intensifies as it

approaches its end. A chicken that is raised for a live animal market lives a

life of terror that intensifies as it is jammed into small cage with 3 or 4

others (often breaking bones in their wings), jostled in the back of a noisy

truck, pulled out by its feet and thrust into a paper bag, surrounded by humans

and loud noises, carried to someone's home, pulled out again by another person,

held by its feet and neck, its throat slit, and held still while it bleeds to

death in the kitchen sink.

So, to make a parallel: with the first chicken, it's like being born into a POW

camp, at age 21 being stood in line for the firing squad, and watching your

peers die before you. With the other chicken, it's like being born into a

prison, at age 21 being blindfolded, handcuffed to the bed of a pick-up, driven

for an hour somewhere, taken out of the truck, being attacked by a gang with

knives, and bleeding to death.

Now you tell me: from the chicken's perspective, which life and death is better?

I can't think of anything that would cause a chicken to prefer the second

scenario. It reminds me of Monty Python's " The Life of Brian " , where the old

man condemned to crucifixion says " crucifixion ain't so bad; at least it gets

you out of the house " .

Thanks for considering a different perspective.

-- Robert Haines

______________________

Message: 6

Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:47:49 -0000

" marc2swan "

Re: My neighbor is killing chickens in her kitchen...