Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Hello! My name is Lisa and I live a veg lifestyle because of ethical, health, and environmental considerations. I've studied anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology extensively while in my nursing program and I realized that the SAD (Standard American Diet) was making my patients and myself much worse. The books and research of Jon Robbins, Howard Lyman, Eric Schlosser, John Mcdougall, M.D., Neal Barnard, M.D. and Lorraine Day, M.D. also helped to influence my decision to go veg. Anyway, here is what happened to me yesterday: I went to Trader Joe's with my husband, " Ted " . " Ted " chooses to remain a carnivore despite the information I have shared with him about vegetarianism/veganism. He also chooses to eat frozen dinners instead of the delicious and gourmet veggie meals I prepare for us. (NOTE: My friend MB says that " Ted " wants to eat toxic food because he is toxic.) " Ted " and I went into the store and went our separate ways. After shopping for my fruits, veggies, and other veg products, I proceeded to the checkout. The cashier was a young girl in her early twenties, covered in tatoos and very cheerful. She asked me if I found everything o.k.? I told her that I was very pleased that the store was carrying a larger selection of vegetarian items. She asked me if I was a veg. I said yes and asked if her if she was a veg too. She said no and said that most of her friends were veg but she loved eating steak too much. She said that she tried to be veg for a week but could not do without meat. She then asked me how I could remain meatless. I told her that I was veg because of ethical, environmental and health reasons. I then shared with her something that Jon Robbins stated in his book: I asked her if she had a pet and she said she had a cat that she loved very much. I then said it is not fair to call one animal food and the other animal pet. She then responded but I love steak to much! I then shared with her that steak is very hard on the digestive tract takes 72hrs to exit the body. She said ooooooo and grimaced and thanked me for sharing this veggie information with her. When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman standing nearby had a pissed look on her face. My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but I do not want to piss people off. Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain, comment, and advise! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 On 06/20/04, bwlisaveggie <bwlisaveggie wrote: > When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He > said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman > standing nearby had a pissed look on her face. > My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? > I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but > I do not want to piss people off. i would strongly recommend reading the book 'the sexual politics of meat' by carol adams. the book compares the history and literature of feminism with the history and literature of vegetarianism, and draws many interesting parallels. one of the most illuminating for me was the comparison between how patriarchal voices have silenced the voices of women talking about feminist issues, with how meat eaters will similarly try to silence the voices of people sharing information about vegetarianism. she explores the comparison in depth and allows you to analyze the dynamics involved. and it is really quite simple: if he were a witness to the daily brutality and torture of others, would it not be his responsibility to speak up? to remain silent when others are suffering is to be a willing participant in the same acts you find so repugnant. although i don't want to encourage a war between you and your husband, it really is not his place to decide what reasons you can or can't talk to strangers. it sounds like a reminder is in order. -- steve simitzis : /sim' - i - jees/ pala : saturn5 productions www.steve.org : 415.282.9979 hath the daemon spawn no fire? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 Hi Lisa: My view is that people who thank you for sharing your point of view but continue their course are not at all the problem, rather are the exception and you have done well to get that response: you've made them think without threatening them. Now it's up to them, or not, as they choose. On the other hand you're quite often going to really piss off people who think your view is unacceptable and more specifically who feel threatened by it. I say keep spreading the word with those who are open to it and ignore the ones who may be avoiding some internal conflicts. Including in this case, unfortunately, perhaps your husband. Tell him for me though that PETA are far from freaks: whether one agrees with their methods or not the fact remains that they are a great, selfless organization which has for decades worked tirelessly for animal rights in the face of brutal criticism, ostracization, public ridicule, government harassment and more, since long before the concept was even remotely fashionable. Their founder is literally the Mother Teresa of the animal rights movement. If all " Ted " knows about them is the common currency he's picked up from other carnivores, he should do some reading, he might be surprised. --Bruce > > bwlisaveggie [bwlisaveggie] > Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:49 AM > > I'd like your veggie opinions on this... > > > Hello! My name is Lisa and I live a veg lifestyle because of > ethical, health, and environmental considerations. I've studied > anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology extensively while in my > nursing program and I realized that the SAD (Standard American Diet) > was making my patients and myself much worse. The books and research > of Jon Robbins, Howard Lyman, Eric Schlosser, John Mcdougall, M.D., > Neal Barnard, M.D. and Lorraine Day, M.D. also helped to influence my > decision to go veg. > > Anyway, here is what happened to me yesterday: I went to Trader > Joe's with my husband, " Ted " . " Ted " chooses to remain a carnivore > despite the information I have shared with him about > vegetarianism/veganism. He also chooses to eat frozen dinners instead > of the delicious and gourmet veggie meals I prepare for us. (NOTE: > My friend MB says that " Ted " wants to eat toxic food because he is > toxic.) " Ted " and I went into the store and went our separate ways. > After shopping for my fruits, veggies, and other veg products, I > proceeded to the checkout. The cashier was a young girl in her early > twenties, covered in tatoos and very cheerful. She asked me if I > found everything o.k.? I told her that I was very pleased that the > store was carrying a larger selection of vegetarian items. She asked > me if I was a veg. I said yes and asked if her if she was a veg > too. She said no and said that most of her friends were veg but she > loved eating steak too much. She said that she tried to be veg for a > week but could not do without meat. She then asked me how I could > remain meatless. I told her that I was veg because of ethical, > environmental and health reasons. I then shared with her something > that Jon Robbins stated in his book: I asked her if she had a pet > and she said she had a cat that she loved very much. I then said it > is not fair to call one animal food and the other animal pet. She > then responded but I love steak to much! I then shared with her that > steak is very hard on the digestive tract takes 72hrs to exit the > body. She said ooooooo and grimaced and thanked me for sharing this > veggie information with her. > When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He > said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman > standing nearby had a pissed look on her face. > My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? > I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but > I do not want to piss people off. > Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I > have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks > for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't > understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right > thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain, > comment, and advise! > > Thanks! BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network > & find support. > > Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More! > http://www.bayareaveg.org/ > > Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events! > http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2004 Report Share Posted June 20, 2004 While I agree, we want to strive to not "piss people off", I feel that when I am faced with an opportunity to say something about the cause...do I or don't I?....I simply imagine the images we have all seen of the hens in battery cages, the baby calves chained by the neck, despertely wanting their mothers milk, the sows pinned in stalls the size of a bath tub, and the baby male chicks thrown in the dumpsters...discarded like trash...ALIVE AND PEEPING....I then delight in speaking "for the animals", I don't care who I am "pissing off". PS: focus on talking to the young, (tattoed, pierced, or cruising a Fisher Price tricycle!), they will take this home to their parents, teachers and future generations! Bruce Cannon <bc wrote: Hi Lisa:My view is that people who thank you for sharing your point of view butcontinue their course are not at all the problem, rather are the exceptionand you have done well to get that response: you've made them think withoutthreatening them. Now it's up to them, or not, as they choose. On theother hand you're quite often going to really piss off people who think yourview is unacceptable and more specifically who feel threatened by it. I saykeep spreading the word with those who are open to it and ignore the oneswho may be avoiding some internal conflicts. Including in this case,unfortunately, perhaps your husband.Tell him for me though that PETA are far from freaks: whether one agreeswith their methods or not the fact remains that they are a great, selflessorganization which has for decades worked tirelessly for animal rights inthe face of brutal criticism, ostracization, public ridicule, governmentharassment and more, since long before the concept was even remotelyfashionable. Their founder is literally the Mother Teresa of the animalrights movement. If all "Ted" knows about them is the common currency he'spicked up from other carnivores, he should do some reading, he might besurprised.--Bruce> > bwlisaveggie [bwlisaveggie]> Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:49 AM> > I'd like your veggie opinions on this...>>> Hello! My name is Lisa and I live a veg lifestyle because of> ethical, health, and environmental considerations. I've studied> anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology extensively while in my> nursing program and I realized that the SAD (Standard American Diet)> was making my patients and myself much worse. The books and research> of Jon Robbins, Howard Lyman, Eric Schlosser, John Mcdougall, M.D.,> Neal Barnard, M.D. and Lorraine Day, M.D. also helped to influence my> decision to go veg.>> Anyway, here is what happened to me yesterday: I went to Trader> Joe's with my husband, "Ted". "Ted" chooses to remain a carnivore> despite the information I have shared with him about> vegetarianism/veganism. He also chooses to eat frozen dinners instead> of the delicious and gourmet veggie meals I prepare for us. (NOTE:> My friend MB says that "Ted" wants to eat toxic food because he is> toxic.) "Ted" and I went into the store and went our separate ways.> After shopping for my fruits, veggies, and other veg products, I> proceeded to the checkout. The cashier was a young girl in her early> twenties, covered in tatoos and very cheerful. She asked me if I> found everything o.k.? I told her that I was very pleased that the> store was carrying a larger selection of vegetarian items. She asked> me if I was a veg. I said yes and asked if her if she was a veg> too. She said no and said that most of her friends were veg but she> loved eating steak too much. She said that she tried to be veg for a> week but could not do without meat. She then asked me how I could> remain meatless. I told her that I was veg because of ethical,> environmental and health reasons. I then shared with her something> that Jon Robbins stated in his book: I asked her if she had a pet> and she said she had a cat that she loved very much. I then said it> is not fair to call one animal food and the other animal pet. She> then responded but I love steak to much! I then shared with her that> steak is very hard on the digestive tract takes 72hrs to exit the> body. She said ooooooo and grimaced and thanked me for sharing this> veggie information with her.> When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He> said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman> standing nearby had a pissed look on her face.> My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself?> I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but> I do not want to piss people off.> Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I> have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks> for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't> understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right> thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain,> comment, and advise!>> Thanks!>>>>>>> BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network> & find support.>> Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/>> Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Hi "bwlisaveggie" Tell loving hubby you actually are quoting a PhD in Animal Agriculture from the Oregon State University who said: "For modern animal agriculture, the less the consumer knows about what's happening before the meat hits the plate, the better. If true, is this an ethical situation? Should we be reluctant to let people know what really goes on, beause we're not really proud of it and conerned that it might turn them to vegetarianism?" This is per his 1999 textbook "Contemporary issues in animal Agriculture" (Peter Cheeke, Phd). Tell loving hubby you agree with the ethics of information, with which to make responsible choices. (quote courtesy of "Why Vegan" from www.whyvegan.org) Julie A. Dull www.dullcats.com Cell 650-219-9896 ***************************** "If not me, who? If not now, when? ***************************** "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill ********************************************************************** Free Farm Animals from Cruelty, Cannibalism, Confinement and Drugs: http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."-----George Bernard Shaw ******************************************************************* Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein ******************************************************************* Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein Steve Simitzis [steve] Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:03 PMbwlisaveggieCc: Subject: Re: I'd like your veggie opinions on this...On 06/20/04, bwlisaveggie <bwlisaveggie wrote: > When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He > said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman > standing nearby had a pissed look on her face. > My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? > I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but > I do not want to piss people off. i would strongly recommend reading the book 'the sexual politics ofmeat' by carol adams. the book compares the history and literature offeminism with the history and literature of vegetarianism, and drawsmany interesting parallels. one of the most illuminating for me wasthe comparison between how patriarchal voices have silenced the voicesof women talking about feminist issues, with how meat eaters willsimilarly try to silence the voices of people sharing informationabout vegetarianism. she explores the comparison in depth and allowsyou to analyze the dynamics involved.and it is really quite simple: if he were a witness to the dailybrutality and torture of others, would it not be his responsibility tospeak up? to remain silent when others are suffering is to be awilling participant in the same acts you find so repugnant.although i don't want to encourage a war between you and your husband,it really is not his place to decide what reasons you can or can'ttalk to strangers. it sounds like a reminder is in order.-- steve simitzis : /sim' - i - jees/ pala : saturn5 productionswww.steve.org : 415.282.9979 hath the daemon spawn no fire?BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find support. Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More!http://www.bayareaveg.org/Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events!http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Oh absolutely, say something. I've been - at Sun Microsystems, where I work - every time we all go to lunch together -- about 5 times a week! Folks mention going for chicken or other meat and I say "oh my god, no thanks. I just found out that animal cruelty is not illegal in this country, the food is filthy and they are trying to nuke it to kill e. coli, that the milk industry is responsible for veal production, and the whole thing is totally gross, unnecessary, and funded by my tax dollars....sorry but you asked". then I tell them "i can eat anywhere -- there are always veggie options on any menu" which is true - chinese chicken salad, hold the chicken, vegan pizza - no cheese thank you! - And I am so much happier and healthier now folks wonder what happened, why i lost weight -- i just tell them i don't eat diary or dead animals and am so glad no animals were tortured and killed for me in the last 5 mos. I also have animals rights stuff all over the door to my office. I get weird looks but at least 3 folks have taken up conversations with me about it, and taken the literature I always carry in my briefcase. I think many folks are concerned, they just don't know OTHER folks are concerned. I was getting my oil changed at jiffy lube yesterday and struck up a conversation with the cashier, asking her if she was aware of the practices pictured in "why vegan". Apparantly they teach that in the "nutrition" classes at the city colleges. Thank god for that. Julie A. Dull www.dullcats.com Cell 650-219-9896 ***************************** "If not me, who? If not now, when? ***************************** "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill ********************************************************************** Free Farm Animals from Cruelty, Cannibalism, Confinement and Drugs: http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."-----George Bernard Shaw ******************************************************************* Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein ******************************************************************* Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein Paris Harvey [bitebackvegan] Sunday, June 20, 2004 3:09 PMBruce Cannon; SfbavegRE: I'd like your veggie opinions on this... While I agree, we want to strive to not "piss people off", I feel that when I am faced with an opportunity to say something about the cause...do I or don't I?....I simply imagine the images we have all seen of the hens in battery cages, the baby calves chained by the neck, despertely wanting their mothers milk, the sows pinned in stalls the size of a bath tub, and the baby male chicks thrown in the dumpsters...discarded like trash...ALIVE AND PEEPING....I then delight in speaking "for the animals", I don't care who I am "pissing off". PS: focus on talking to the young, (tattoed, pierced, or cruising a Fisher Price tricycle!), they will take this home to their parents, teachers and future generations! Bruce Cannon <bc wrote: Hi Lisa:My view is that people who thank you for sharing your point of view butcontinue their course are not at all the problem, rather are the exceptionand you have done well to get that response: you've made them think withoutthreatening them. Now it's up to them, or not, as they choose. On theother hand you're quite often going to really piss off people who think yourview is unacceptable and more specifically who feel threatened by it. I saykeep spreading the word with those who are open to it and ignore the oneswho may be avoiding some internal conflicts. Including in this case,unfortunately, perhaps your husband.Tell him for me though that PETA are far from freaks: whether one agreeswith their methods or not the fact remains that they are a great, selflessorganization which has for decades ! worked tirelessly for animal rights inthe face of brutal criticism, ostracization, public ridicule, governmentharassment and more, since long before the concept was even remotelyfashionable. Their founder is literally the Mother Teresa of the animalrights movement. If all "Ted" knows about them is the common currency he'spicked up from other carnivores, he should do some reading, he might besurprised.--Bruce> > bwlisaveggie [bwlisaveggie]> Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:49 AM> > I'd like your veggie opinions on this...>>> Hello! My name is Lisa and I live a veg lifestyle because of> ethical, health, and environmental considerations. I've studied> anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology extensively while in my> nursing progr! am and I realized that the SAD (Standard American Diet)> was making my patients and myself much worse. The books and research> of Jon Robbins, Howard Lyman, Eric Schlosser, John Mcdougall, M.D.,> Neal Barnard, M.D. and Lorraine Day, M.D. also helped to influence my> decision to go veg.>> Anyway, here is what happened to me yesterday: I went to Trader> Joe's with my husband, "Ted". "Ted" chooses to remain a carnivore> despite the information I have shared with him about> vegetarianism/veganism. He also chooses to eat frozen dinners instead> of the delicious and gourmet veggie meals I prepare for us. (NOTE:> My friend MB says that "Ted" wants to eat toxic food because he is> toxic.) "Ted" and I went into the store and went our separate ways.> After shopping for my fruits, veggies, and other veg products, I> proceeded to the checkout. & n! bsp; The cashier was a young girl in her early> twenties, covered in tatoos and very cheerful. She asked me if I> found everything o.k.? I told her that I was very pleased that the> store was carrying a larger selection of vegetarian items. She asked> me if I was a veg. I said yes and asked if her if she was a veg> too. She said no and said that most of her friends were veg but she> loved eating steak too much. She said that she tried to be veg for a> week but could not do without meat. She then asked me how I could> remain meatless. I told her that I was veg because of ethical,> environmental and health reasons. I then shared with her something> that Jon Robbins stated in his book: I asked her if she had a pet> and she said she had a cat that she loved very much. I then said it> is not fair to call one animal food and the other anim! al pet. She> then responded but I love steak to much! I then shared with her that> steak is very hard on the digestive tract takes 72hrs to exit the> body. She said ooooooo and grimaced and thanked me for sharing this> veggie information with her.> When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He> said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman> standing nearby had a pissed look on her face.> My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself?> I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but> I do not want to piss people off.> Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I> have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks> for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't> understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right> thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain,> comment, and advise!>> Thanks!>>>>>>> BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network> & find support.>> Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/>> Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 p.s. and then I asked her if I could leave "why vegan" in the lobby of jiffy lube (next to PEOPLE magazine, such an erudite publication, don't you think!!???) and she said oh sure, leave several!!! Julie A. Dull www.dullcats.com Cell 650-219-9896 ***************************** "If not me, who? If not now, when? ***************************** "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill ********************************************************************** Free Farm Animals from Cruelty, Cannibalism, Confinement and Drugs: http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."-----George Bernard Shaw ******************************************************************* Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein ******************************************************************* Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein Julie Dull [dullcats] Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:57 PM'Paris Harvey'; 'Bruce Cannon'; 'Sfbaveg'RE: I'd like your veggie opinions on this... Oh absolutely, say something. I've been - at Sun Microsystems, where I work - every time we all go to lunch together -- about 5 times a week! Folks mention going for chicken or other meat and I say "oh my god, no thanks. I just found out that animal cruelty is not illegal in this country, the food is filthy and they are trying to nuke it to kill e. coli, that the milk industry is responsible for veal production, and the whole thing is totally gross, unnecessary, and funded by my tax dollars....sorry but you asked". then I tell them "i can eat anywhere -- there are always veggie options on any menu" which is true - chinese chicken salad, hold the chicken, vegan pizza - no cheese thank you! - And I am so much happier and healthier now folks wonder what happened, why i lost weight -- i just tell them i don't eat diary or dead animals and am so glad no animals were tortured and killed for me in the last 5 mos. I also have animals rights stuff all over the door to my office. I get weird looks but at least 3 folks have taken up conversations with me about it, and taken the literature I always carry in my briefcase. I think many folks are concerned, they just don't know OTHER folks are concerned. I was getting my oil changed at jiffy lube yesterday and struck up a conversation with the cashier, asking her if she was aware of the practices pictured in "why vegan". Apparantly they teach that in the "nutrition" classes at the city colleges. Thank god for that. Julie A. Dull www.dullcats.com Cell 650-219-9896 ***************************** "If not me, who? If not now, when? ***************************** "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill ********************************************************************** Free Farm Animals from Cruelty, Cannibalism, Confinement and Drugs: http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."-----George Bernard Shaw ******************************************************************* Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein ******************************************************************* Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein Paris Harvey [bitebackvegan] Sunday, June 20, 2004 3:09 PMBruce Cannon; SfbavegRE: I'd like your veggie opinions on this... While I agree, we want to strive to not "piss people off", I feel that when I am faced with an opportunity to say something about the cause...do I or don't I?....I simply imagine the images we have all seen of the hens in battery cages, the baby calves chained by the neck, despertely wanting their mothers milk, the sows pinned in stalls the size of a bath tub, and the baby male chicks thrown in the dumpsters...discarded like trash...ALIVE AND PEEPING....I then delight in speaking "for the animals", I don't care who I am "pissing off". PS: focus on talking to the young, (tattoed, pierced, or cruising a Fisher Price tricycle!), they will take this home to their parents, teachers and future generations! Bruce Cannon <bc wrote: Hi Lisa:My view is that people who thank you for sharing your point of view butcontinue their course are not at all the problem, rather are the exceptionand you have done well to get that response: you've made them think withoutthreatening them. Now it's up to them, or not, as they choose. On theother hand you're quite often going to really piss off people who think yourview is unacceptable and more specifically who feel threatened by it. I saykeep spreading the word with those who are open to it and ignore the oneswho may be avoiding some internal conflicts. Including in this case,unfortunately, perhaps your husband.Tell him for me though that PETA are far from freaks: whether one agreeswith their methods or not the fact remains that they are a great, selflessorganization which has for decades ! worked tirelessly for animal rights inthe face of brutal criticism, ostracization, public ridicule, governmentharassment and more, since long before the concept was even remotelyfashionable. Their founder is literally the Mother Teresa of the animalrights movement. If all "Ted" knows about them is the common currency he'spicked up from other carnivores, he should do some reading, he might besurprised.--Bruce> > bwlisaveggie [bwlisaveggie]> Sunday, June 20, 2004 11:49 AM> > I'd like your veggie opinions on this...>>> Hello! My name is Lisa and I live a veg lifestyle because of> ethical, health, and environmental considerations. I've studied> anatomy, physiology and pathophysiology extensively while in my> nursing progr! am and I realized that the SAD (Standard American Diet)> was making my patients and myself much worse. The books and research> of Jon Robbins, Howard Lyman, Eric Schlosser, John Mcdougall, M.D.,> Neal Barnard, M.D. and Lorraine Day, M.D. also helped to influence my> decision to go veg.>> Anyway, here is what happened to me yesterday: I went to Trader> Joe's with my husband, "Ted". "Ted" chooses to remain a carnivore> despite the information I have shared with him about> vegetarianism/veganism. He also chooses to eat frozen dinners instead> of the delicious and gourmet veggie meals I prepare for us. (NOTE:> My friend MB says that "Ted" wants to eat toxic food because he is> toxic.) "Ted" and I went into the store and went our separate ways.> After shopping for my fruits, veggies, and other veg products, I> proceeded to the checkout. & n! bsp; The cashier was a young girl in her early> twenties, covered in tatoos and very cheerful. She asked me if I> found everything o.k.? I told her that I was very pleased that the> store was carrying a larger selection of vegetarian items. She asked> me if I was a veg. I said yes and asked if her if she was a veg> too. She said no and said that most of her friends were veg but she> loved eating steak too much. She said that she tried to be veg for a> week but could not do without meat. She then asked me how I could> remain meatless. I told her that I was veg because of ethical,> environmental and health reasons. I then shared with her something> that Jon Robbins stated in his book: I asked her if she had a pet> and she said she had a cat that she loved very much. I then said it> is not fair to call one animal food and the other anim! al pet. She> then responded but I love steak to much! I then shared with her that> steak is very hard on the digestive tract takes 72hrs to exit the> body. She said ooooooo and grimaced and thanked me for sharing this> veggie information with her.> When we got out to the parking lot my husband was furious. He> said I sounded like a psycho PETA freak. He told me that a woman> standing nearby had a pissed look on her face.> My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself?> I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but> I do not want to piss people off.> Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I> have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks> for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't> understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right> thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain,> comment, and advise!>> Thanks!>>>>>>> BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network> & find support.>> Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/>> Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events!> http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 At 6:48 PM +0000 6/20/04, bwlisaveggie wrote: > My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? >I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but >I do not want to piss people off. Considering that the cashier specifically asked you how you could remain meatless, I can't see how your husband or anyone else could find fault in you explaining your position. It's not as if you gave totally unsolicited information or advice. > Why don't people want to get better and do the right >thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain, >comment, and advise! I too find people's behavior so often inexplicable. For example, I have a friend who claims that he and his wife are both very concerned for the welfare of chickens, and yet they both still eat chickens, though they buy free-range. I told him about how the term " free range " is meaningless in this country, and besides when he eats chicken in a restaurant, he most likely will not know where it came from. I guess for most people their tastebuds will always win out over compassion for animals and concern for health and the environment, sadly. - Julie -- Julie Bernstein | http://funcrunch.livejournal.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2004 Report Share Posted June 21, 2004 Comment on free range chickens - that was all I ate for several years. Now I know the facts. I don't know if this helps but when folks tell me they eat only free range I tell them that free range does not mean it is cruelty free, and then describe to them the lack of legal protections over fowl, the shipping, the slaughter, the pollution in the tanks (thanks to Virgil Butler's emails), and that the chickens aren't caged. That is all "free range" means. They just look at me. Julie A. Dull www.dullcats.com Cell 650-219-9896 ***************************** "If not me, who? If not now, when? ***************************** "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals." - Sir Winston Churchill ********************************************************************** Free Farm Animals from Cruelty, Cannibalism, Confinement and Drugs: http://www.factoryfarming.com/gallery.htm The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity."-----George Bernard Shaw ******************************************************************* Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - Albert Einstein ******************************************************************* Peace cannot be kept by force; it can only be achieved by understanding. - Albert Einstein Julie Bernstein [list-] Sunday, June 20, 2004 5:33 PM Subject: Re: I'd like your veggie opinions on this...At 6:48 PM +0000 6/20/04, bwlisaveggie wrote:> My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? >I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but>I do not want to piss people off.Considering that the cashier specifically asked you how you could remain meatless, I can't see how your husband or anyone else could find fault in you explaining your position. It's not as if you gave totally unsolicited information or advice.> Why don't people want to get better and do the right>thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain,>comment, and advise!I too find people's behavior so often inexplicable. For example, I have a friend who claims that he and his wife are both very concerned for the welfare of chickens, and yet they both still eat chickens, though they buy free-range. I told him about how the term "free range" is meaningless in this country, and besides when he eats chicken in a restaurant, he most likely will not know where it came from. I guess for most people their tastebuds will always win out over compassion for animals and concern for health and the environment, sadly.- Julie-- Julie Bernstein | http://funcrunch.livejournal.com/BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find support. Event Calendar, Charter, FAQ and More!http://www.bayareaveg.org/Bookmark this page! Don't miss local events!http://www.bayareaveg.org/events.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2004 Report Share Posted June 22, 2004 At 10:48 AM -0800 6/20/04, bwlisaveggie wrote: > My question is: Should I keep my veggie information to myself? >I want to extol the virtues the vegetarianism/veganism to others but >I do not want to piss people off. The short answer is no, don't keep it to yourself, you need to share it. The long answer is that in order to be effective (which means that people hear you, trust your information, and act on it), you have to think very carefully about what you say, tailor your information carefully to your audience, and know when to stop and when not to speak at all. Especially when we are newly converted, it can sometimes be easy to cross the line from offering valuable information to getting up on a soapbox. (I did.) Yet if someone had been preaching at me when I was thinking about going veg*n (almost 30 years ago), it may have taken me a lot longer to make the leap. If my gut reaction is that I do not like the person delivering the message -- particularly if the person is too pushy -- I do not hear the message, or I develop an aversion to that point of view. If you deliver information in such a way that a prejudiced person can easily stereotype you ( " PETA person " for instance), often they literally cannot hear what you are saying. Even when I agree with what someone is saying, if I am being talked _at_ or if I feel as if I am being harangued, communication may not happen. (This happened recently with a friend who was frothing-at-the-mouth about getting Bush out of office. Although objectively I probably would not disagree with anything he was saying, I tuned out the rant.) For wise, practical advice on dealing graciously and _effectively_ with a mostly nonvegan world, see the book _Living with Meat-eaters_ by Carol Adams. She offers guidelines on when and how to share information, how to answer all those annoying questions ( " where do you get your protein? " etc.) and when not to answer them, and more. I recommended the book to a friend who is in a similar situation -- she's a vegan married to a meat-eater who does not want to hear about all the benefits of going vegan. Yet he supports her when any of their nonvegan friends criticize her. He was even willing to go along with a vegan Thanksgiving (for 4) at her house, although only she and I were vegan. The current issue of _Sierra_ magazine has an interesting interview with linguistics prof George Lakoff, who talks about how environmentalists can change the words they use to get their message to a wider audience. Basically, you have to understand what your target audience cares most about, and frame your message in those terms, using words that resonate with their point of view. (The far-right has been doing it, tho' dishonestly, with such deceptive phrases as Healthy Forests Initiative.) It takes practice and preplanning, of course, to begin to be able to communicate effectively. I see it as developing my doglike nature -- holding my own ground while being nondefensive and nonjudgmental, welcoming to and willing to engage with whoever comes in the door, but refusing to tolerate abusive behavior. ( " Be the person your dog thinks you are. " ) > Some of my friends are grateful for the information and books I >have shared. However, my family and some of my friends said thanks >for telling me but I will never give up eating meat! I don't >understand! Why don't people want to get better and do the right >thing for their health, the animals and the planet?! Please explain, >comment, and advise! I long ago realized that friends and family are the last ones to follow my advice. But sometimes if you let people know where you stand without proselytizing, they will come around on their own. One old friend told me he'd tried being a vegetarian for 6 months and it didn't work, and he knew it was not for him. A few years later, when we were living in different cities, he called excitedly and said he was a vegan, he'd finally read Robbins's book! Sometimes the younger generation will see you as a model. For a couple decades one of my uncles (who had some connection with NIH, so he should have known something about health), every time he saw me, asked if I was still a vegetarian, if I salivated when I smelled steaks cooking, and if I wanted a steak. About 5 years ago, his two teenage granddaughters became vegetarian, and one of them wrote to ask me for info. So be straightforward about being a vegetarian, plant those seeds, and someday someone you've met may remember you as a really healthy person and make the connection, vegetarian = healthy. Or they will remember you as the really knowledgeable nurse, the one who practices what she preaches, and decide to give vegetarianism a chance. " Be the change you want to see in the world. " Or something totally unrelated may spark their interest in veg*sm, and they will recall having met you. Holly Near, after years of political activism, figured out that it's a waste of time to try to reach everyone. Visualizing everyone as being on layers of an onion, she said the best use of her time was to see herself as communicating with those who were at the layers just above and just below her own level. (Something like that.) At a more philosophical level, it's also interesting to think about how we know what we know, and what we rely on to make decisions. Gut feelings, intuition, aesthetics, and the like are usually more important to me than logic and facts. (Scientific studies support this, I believe.) So throwing out a lot of compelling facts, or showing someone photos that disgust them, may not be as effective as simply sharing from your heart. Tanya Kucak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2004 Report Share Posted June 23, 2004 I second the recommendation for " Living Among Meat Eaters " by Carol Adams. It's an excellent resource and was very helpful for me even after I'd kind of " settled into " my veganism. I totally recommend it for new and practiced veg*ns alike. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 tanyaK wrote: > For wise, practical advice on dealing graciously and _effectively_ with a > mostly nonvegan world, see the book _Living with Meat-eaters_ by Carol > Adams. She offers guidelines on when and how to share information, how to > answer all those annoying questions ( " where do you get your protein? " etc.) > and when not to answer them, and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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