Harold Brown's Talk Last Night

[Guest guest]

Harold Brown's talk at Marin Humane last night was very informative.

(And all the snacks were vegan!)

 

I didn't know that California is now the number one state in dairy

production. He talked a lot about dairy cows and the terrible

conditions for them, including in " organic " dairies.

 

Another interesting item is that the US is running out of room for all

the " manure lagoons " , and some of the factory farms will be moving

overseas to countries like China where there are fewer regulations and

cheaper labor.

 

Karen

[Guest guest]

> Harold Brown's talk at Marin Humane last night was very informative. > (And all the snacks were vegan!)

 

It's nice to see an animal "welfare" group that is so progressive in its perspective to include all animals. I wish more rescue groups are like this!

 

I think people who care for cats and dogs are people who are most likely to widen their circle of compassion to include other animals. But the question that I ask myself a lot is how do we reach these people -- these non veggie people -- with all the great reasons to be vegetarian -- for the animals, the environment, their own health, etc.

 

Tammy

[Guest guest]

> I think people who care for cats and dogs are people

> who are most likely to

> widen their circle of compassion to include other

> animals. But the question

> that I ask myself a lot is how do we reach these

> people -- these non veggie

> people -- with all the great reasons to be

> vegetarian -- for the animals,

> the environment, their own health, etc.

 

I'm not so sure that pet owners can be convinced to

widen their circle, as you suggest. I mean, where does

the " chicken by-product " in Purina Puppy Chow come

from? ( url:

http://www.puppychow.com/Products/Detail.aspx?intProductID=7 ).

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

A conversation I had with a friend the other day summed up the dichotomous attitude of many people. We were talking about our "companion animals" she said, "Yeah, I'm an animal lover too....so the other day I was at this pig roast, and I was talking to this guy..." In one b"Tammy, Bay Area Vegetarians" <t wrote:

 

 

I think people who care for cats and dogs are people who are most likely to widen their circle of compassion to include other animals. But the question that I ask myself a lot is how do we reach these people -- these non veggie people -- with all the great reasons to be vegetarian -- for the animals, the environment, their own health, etc.

[Guest guest]

" I'm not so sure that pet owners can be convinced to widen their

circle, as you suggest. "

 

Hi, Ajay.

I must disagree with your statement. One of the major milestones along

my path to veganism was adopting my dog, Coffee, from Marin Humane in

1982. Until I had her, I knew that I liked animals, but I really

didn't think too much about them. After bringing Coffee into my life,

however, and seeing how intelligent and sensitive she was, the plight

of other animals started to be more of an issue for me.

 

I think that many people who work or volunteer at humane societies will

widen their circle of compassion if the issues are pointed out to

them. Many of them just don't know what animals raised for food go

through, and once they do know, they'll have more reason to consider

going veg.

 

Karen

[Guest guest]

Talk about frustrating! I work for a law enforcement-oriented County agency in

downtown Oakland. On top of being exposed to criminal shop talk all day (how

boring and depressing), I must also bite my tongue and keep thoughts to myself

regarding environmental and animal-related issues. I've tested the water by

putting up some literature from PETA, Farm Sanctuary and COK but the last time

someone insisted on taking it down... twice. Don't have the energy or fortitude

to start an internecine war. And so now I'm a little gun-shy, fearing it would

incite some bad feelings and an official slap on the wrist for displaying what

the powers-that-be and/or consensus deem inappropriate or offensive material.

Not wishing to bring unnecessaary turmoil, stress and aggravation upon myself,

I've been debating with myself whether to try again or just write these people

off or try another method. Any thoughts from others, especially those operating

in similarly non-receptive or hostile environments would be most appreciated and

greatly welcome.

 

Ron Landskroner

Oakland

[Guest guest]

Kate,

 

There are two questions here:

1. Does the ownership of a pet make you a more

compassionate person, making you eat less meat?

2. Does the ownership of a pet result in lesser meat

consumption overall?

 

The answer to #1 is " maybe " , at best; and the answer

to #2 is " no " , unfortunately.

 

Keeping in mind the simple fact that if there weren't

so many pet owners who abandoned their pets there

wouldn't be as many euthanizations at the local

shelter, I am hesitant to think that pet ownership

alone could encourage a more compassionate lifestyle.

 

Secondly, I posit that pets consume just about as much

meat in this country as humans do (I have no numbers

to back this up, but my gut feeling is that the

numbers will be in the same ballpark, and not totally

disproportionate). Owning a pet involves feeding it

meat which comes from some factory farm somewhere; and

unlike meat for human consumption, there are probably

no laws governing the meat for pet consumption (we

shall ignore the efficacy of said laws for now).

 

These are just my opinions that I'm throwing out to

foster more discussion. You know, you can't spell

" compassion " without " passion " ... ;-)

 

Ajay

 

--- kmeldrum <kmeldrum wrote:

> " I'm not so sure that pet owners can be convinced to

> widen their

> circle, as you suggest. "

>

> Hi, Ajay.

> I must disagree with your statement. One of the

> major milestones along

> my path to veganism was adopting my dog, Coffee,

> from Marin Humane in

> 1982. Until I had her, I knew that I liked animals,

> but I really

> didn't think too much about them. After bringing

> Coffee into my life,

> however, and seeing how intelligent and sensitive

> she was, the plight

> of other animals started to be more of an issue for

> me.

>

> I think that many people who work or volunteer at

> humane societies will

> widen their circle of compassion if the issues are

> pointed out to

> them. Many of them just don't know what animals

> raised for food go

> through, and once they do know, they'll have more

> reason to consider

> going veg.

>

> Karen

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

http://farechase.

[Guest guest]

Another quandry, another difficult choice, another challenge to those of us

who love having animal companions and yet at the same time do not wish to

be contributing to the pain and suffering of other animals. There is no

easy answer but I am including some links related to this issue:

 

Ron Landskroner

Oakland

 

http://www.coopamerica.org/pubs/greenpages/results.cfm?category=PC

 

http://www.askcarla.com/Q & A-Vegan.asp?CategoryID=5 & Category=Veg

 

http://www.healthy-eating.com/pet_food.html

 

http://www.vegancats.com/

 

http://www.petguard.com/

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=PetGuard

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Nature%27s+Recipe

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & q=Meatless+meals+for+dogs+and+cats

 

http://www.petasearch.org/texis/search?dropXSL= & pr=default & prox=page & rorder=

500 & rprox=500 & rdfreq=500 & rwfreq=500 & rlead=500 & sufs=0 & query=pet+food

 

http://www.petasearch.org/texis/search?dropXSL= & pr=default & prox=page & rorder=

500 & rprox=500 & rdfreq=500 & rwfreq=500 & rlead=500 & sufs=0 & order=r & query=pet+food+

recipes

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Vegetarian+Dogs%2C+Dune

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Vegetarian+Cats+%26+Dogs%2C+Peden

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Harbingers+of+a+new+age

 

http://www.naturalfoodsmerchandiser.com/ASP/searchResult.asp?firsttime=Y & whe

re=ARTICLEARCHIVE & Title= & ColID=1245 & SubID= & AuthID= & Fromdate= & Todate= & IssueId

= & SectionID= & hidFromPage=HOME

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=Newman%27s+Own

 

http://www.healthy-eating.com/pet_food.html

 

http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-vegcat.html

 

http://www.iamscruelty.com/

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & biw=671 & q=Food+Pets+Die+For%2C+Ann+Ma

rtin

 

http://www.deltarescue.tv/pages/pet_food

 

Ron Landskroner

 

 

> [Original Message]

> Ajay <ajayboots

>

> 10/20/2005 3:48:11 PM

> Re: Re: Harold Brown's Talk Last Night

>

> Kate,

>

> There are two questions here:

> 1. Does the ownership of a pet make you a more

> compassionate person, making you eat less meat?

> 2. Does the ownership of a pet result in lesser meat

> consumption overall?

>

> The answer to #1 is " maybe " , at best; and the answer

> to #2 is " no " , unfortunately.

>

> Keeping in mind the simple fact that if there weren't

> so many pet owners who abandoned their pets there

> wouldn't be as many euthanizations at the local

> shelter, I am hesitant to think that pet ownership

> alone could encourage a more compassionate lifestyle.

>

> Secondly, I posit that pets consume just about as much

> meat in this country as humans do (I have no numbers

> to back this up, but my gut feeling is that the

> numbers will be in the same ballpark, and not totally

> disproportionate). Owning a pet involves feeding it

> meat which comes from some factory farm somewhere; and

> unlike meat for human consumption, there are probably

> no laws governing the meat for pet consumption (we

> shall ignore the efficacy of said laws for now).

>

> These are just my opinions that I'm throwing out to

> foster more discussion. You know, you can't spell

> " compassion " without " passion " ... ;-)

>

> Ajay

>

> --- kmeldrum <kmeldrum wrote:

> > " I'm not so sure that pet owners can be convinced to

> > widen their

> > circle, as you suggest. "

> >

> > Hi, Ajay.

> > I must disagree with your statement. One of the

> > major milestones along

> > my path to veganism was adopting my dog, Coffee,

> > from Marin Humane in

> > 1982. Until I had her, I knew that I liked animals,

> > but I really

> > didn't think too much about them. After bringing

> > Coffee into my life,

> > however, and seeing how intelligent and sensitive

> > she was, the plight

> > of other animals started to be more of an issue for

> > me.

> >

> > I think that many people who work or volunteer at

> > humane societies will

> > widen their circle of compassion if the issues are

> > pointed out to

> > them. Many of them just don't know what animals

> > raised for food go

> > through, and once they do know, they'll have more

> > reason to consider

> > going veg.

> >

> > Karen

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

> http://farechase.

>

>

>

>

>

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> VOTE TODAY IN OUR BEST OF VEG 2005 SURVEY! Tell us the best places to

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>

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>

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>

[Guest guest]

It's all in how you frame the questions. Here's a third one:

 

Does a close relationship with a pet make a person more likely to realize that non-human animals have feelings and to care about those feelings? Yes. I think it's easier to get someone to realize that a pig is like his dog -- who he would not want to suffer in a factory farm -- than, if he doesn't care about dogs either, to show him that, like human suffering, pigs suffering matters too. Like Karen, I became vegetarian and then vegan in large part because of my love for the pets I grew up with.

 

TheaAjay <ajayboots wrote:

Kate,There are two questions here:1. Does the ownership of a pet make you a morecompassionate person, making you eat less meat?2. Does the ownership of a pet result in lesser meatconsumption overall?The answer to #1 is "maybe", at best; and the answerto #2 is "no", unfortunately. Keeping in mind the simple fact that if there weren'tso many pet owners who abandoned their pets therewouldn't be as many euthanizations at the localshelter, I am hesitant to think that pet ownershipalone could encourage a more compassionate lifestyle.Secondly, I posit that pets consume just about as muchmeat in this country as humans do (I have no numbersto back this up, but my gut feeling is that thenumbers will be in the same ballpark, and not totallydisproportionate). Owning a pet involves feeding itmeat which

comes from some factory farm somewhere; andunlike meat for human consumption, there are probablyno laws governing the meat for pet consumption (weshall ignore the efficacy of said laws for now). These are just my opinions that I'm throwing out tofoster more discussion. You know, you can't spell"compassion" without "passion"... ;-)Ajay--- kmeldrum <kmeldrum wrote:> "I'm not so sure that pet owners can be convinced to> widen their > circle, as you suggest."> > Hi, Ajay.> I must disagree with your statement. One of the> major milestones along > my path to veganism was adopting my dog, Coffee,> from Marin Humane in > 1982. Until I had her, I knew that I liked animals,> but I really > didn't think too much about them. After bringing> Coffee into my life, > however, and seeing how intelligent and sensitive>

she was, the plight > of other animals started to be more of an issue for> me. > > I think that many people who work or volunteer at> humane societies will > widen their circle of compassion if the issues are> pointed out to > them. Many of them just don't know what animals> raised for food go > through, and once they do know, they'll have more> reason to consider > going veg. > > Karen> > > > > FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.http://farechase.

FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

[Guest guest]

I think an effective technique is to order PETA's excellent pamphlets and disperse as much as you can

 

Bill Clark

 

-

Tammy, Bay Area Vegetarians

Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:02 PM

RE: Harold Brown's Talk Last Night

 

> Harold Brown's talk at Marin Humane last night was very informative. > (And all the snacks were vegan!)

 

It's nice to see an animal "welfare" group that is so progressive in its perspective to include all animals. I wish more rescue groups are like this!

 

I think people who care for cats and dogs are people who are most likely to widen their circle of compassion to include other animals. But the question that I ask myself a lot is how do we reach these people -- these non veggie people -- with all the great reasons to be vegetarian -- for the animals, the environment, their own health, etc.

 

Tammy

[Guest guest]

I understand what you're saying, but I've had this

discussion with friends before, and for some reason,

there's a disconnect in peoples' minds between Fluffy

and filet mignon.

 

And then there's the fact that you have to feed meat

to your pets (the number people who feed their pets

veg*an food is very small indeed). As one friend said

to me, if I'm going to be buying meat anyways, what

difference does it make who eats it?

 

Ajay

 

--- Thea Langsam <thea_langsam wrote:

> It's all in how you frame the questions. Here's a

> third one:

>

> Does a close relationship with a pet make a person

> more likely to realize that non-human animals have

> feelings and to care about those feelings? Yes. I

> think it's easier to get someone to realize that a

> pig is like his dog -- who he would not want to

> suffer in a factory farm -- than, if he doesn't care

> about dogs either, to show him that, like human

> suffering, pigs suffering matters too. Like Karen,

> I became vegetarian and then vegan in large part

> because of my love for the pets I grew up with.

>

> Thea

 

 

 

 

 

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

http://farechase.

[Guest guest]

" there's a disconnect in peoples' minds between Fluffy and filet mignon "

 

You are so right, Ajay. That is why it needs to be brought to their

attention.

 

 

" And then there's the fact that you have to feed meat to your pets ...

the number people who feed their pets veg*an food is very small "

 

You seem to be saying that we should just give up on anyone who has a

cat or dog because they might feed them meat. But, as you have pointed

out, some people DO feed their animals vegan food. This is another

issue where many people don't know the alternatives. There was an

earlier reply that listed numerous web links to find out more info

about feeding your animals.

 

Once someone goes veg in their own life, they are more likely to

consider alternatives for their animals. Even if they don't feed 100%

veg, they are probably more likely to buy the veg treats that are so

available. Every little bit helps the animals.

 

Karen

[Guest guest]

--- kmeldrum <kmeldrum wrote:

> You seem to be saying that we should just give up on

> anyone who has a

> cat or dog because they might feed them meat. But,

> as you have pointed

> out, some people DO feed their animals vegan food.

 

Kate,

As you yourself mentioned, the people who are veg*ans

are the ones most likely to feed veg*an food to their

pets. My point was that just because someone adopts a

pet, it doesn't make them much more likely to become a

veg*an; and I think I'm beginning to sound like a

broken record now.

 

Coming back to the question of what can be done about

this. Mike's email was excellent and raised a lot of

good ideas. Basically, I have learnt that in-your-face

approaches rarely work, and backfire more often. At

the risk of alienating the limited number of friends

that I have made here, let me go out and say this: a

lot of mainstream people consider veg*ans as fringe;

" nuts " , if you will. Maybe it was the crowd I hung out

with in Buffalo; I don't know. (Already I can see Thea

scratching my name off the LWP invitees list... :-D ).

 

But I did manage to convince meat eaters to try

alternatives; and from what I hear they've stayed the

course. The key is not to push anybody into doing

anything, but to let their own hearts lead them to it.

 

Here's how a typical dialog went:

" What did you do this weekend? "

" I went to this vegan dinner " .

" Haha.. what did you eat, grass? "

" No, the food was great. We had curried tofu, Italian

'sausage' made with tofu, steamed veggies and soy

icecream... yummy! "

" Heh, sounds healthier than the crap I ate " .

" Why, come along to our next dinner, you might like

it " .

 

The change didn't come overnight. I never brought up

the subject by myself; my colleagues did, and I was

more than happy to answer their questions.

 

Next thing you know, his wife's trying the tofu

" hamburger helper " instead of ground stuff in the

sauce. His son seems to enjoy raw tofu. Time passes.

And now a couple of days a week, they're going

completely meat-free.

 

Here's a thought: if everyone didn't eat meat for 1

day a week, you'd cut annual meat consumption by 15%.

A drop of this magnitude probably hasn't been seen

since the Great Depression.

 

No amount of radical evnagelism will convince people

to change their ways. It didn't work for religious

folks, it won't work for us. What we can do is

educate; set a good example; and be a valuable

resource for the carnivores around us. This is not to

say we hide our beliefs; but don't flaunt them either.

As Billy Dee Williams says, " be cool " .

 

It's about fun too. When people see the fun you're

having in a veg*an lifestyle, they'll follow. (Most

people are sheep anyways, in my not-so-humble opinion

).

 

OK, since I have been told that I have strong

opinions, I'll stop now. It's good to have these

opinionated discussions once in a while; as they say,

you can't spell " compassion " without " passion " ! ;-)

 

Have a great weekend, everyone! I'll be headed to Cafe

Gratitude this weekend, will write a report on what

that's all about (if you don't get a report, avoid the

place!! ;-) ).

 

Ajay

 

 

 

 

 

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