Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Hmm. Why are humans so . . . arrogant? Wouldn't it be the case that some pre-human species " invented " vegetarianism eons before humans crawled the earth? Isn't that what the archaeological evidence, the evidence indicating that many pre-humanoid species (and perhaps early humans as well) did not eat meat, indicates? If so, shouldn't we assume the " natural " state is vegetarianism, and not allow any nationality to take credit for its " invention. " Instead, shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as living and letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece? Sam On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, brunoandherman wrote: > Hi, > > I made a reservation for a group of vegetarians at a Greek > restaurant, and they told me that Greeks invented vegetarianism. I > had seen some quotes by Greek philosophers about vegetarianism, so I > knew it was a popular choice, but what she said intrigued me. Does > anyone have information about the roots of vegetarianism, perhaps > predating the Greek philosophers? I'd also be interested in anything > I could read about Greece and the logic they used to come to the > conclusion that vegetarianism was the way to go. I figured there > were plenty of people on this list who could offer some interesting > insights, and it would be fun to discuss this topic at this dinner. > > Thanks! > Cheryl > > Here are some links I quickly found on the internet. > > Quotes from Greek philosophers: Socrates, Plutarch, Plato, and > Pythagoras (deemed " father of vegetarianism " ) > > http://www.gentleworld.org/philosophers.html > > http://www.gentleworld.org/VEGAN/you_are_not_alone.htm > > ----- > " Throughout human history, advocates of vegetarianism have employed > moral and spiritual arguments to express their disdain for eating > the flesh of animals. Ancient writers such as Ovid and Plutarch > deplored the killing of innocent creatures for food. Plutarch > stated: " I am astonished to think what appetite first induced man to > taste of a dead carcass or what motive could suggest the notion of > nourishing himself with the flesh of animals which he saw, just > before, bleating, bellowing, walking, and looking about them. " The > Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who lived towards the end of the 6th > century BC, argued that the flesh of beasts contaminated and > brutalized the soul. In recognition of Pythagoras' commitment, > vegetarians were known as Pythagoreans until the mid-19th century. " > > http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet & dbid=6 > > ----- > > An interesting article on the history of human development and meat > consumption: > > " The man considered to be the " father " of vegetarianism was a sixth- > century-B.C. Greek philosopher named Pythagoras. Pythagoras, born > approximately 580 B.C., was also a brilliant mathematician and > theorist, and is perhaps best known as the discoverer of the > Pythagorean Theorem and many other mathematical ideas. He believed > that the Earth moved around the sun, not yet proven in his day, and > founded a society that thought meat-eating was taboo. He contended > that a vegetarian lifestyle was the most natural and healthiest > around. In fact, thanks to Pythagoras, the " real " vegetarian > movement started in ancient Greece. > > Pythagoras was able to convince many other important Greek > philosophers, including Socrates and Plato, that vegetarianism was > the best way to eat. Many future vegetarians, including George > Bernard Shaw and Dr. J.H. Kellogg, were greatly influenced by the > progressive Greek philosopher. In fact, the term vegetarian was not > used to describe non-meat eaters until the late nineteenth century. > Until that time, people on a meatless diet were called > Pythagoreans. " > > http://groups.msn.com/CrazyVegan/yourwebpage.msnw > > > > > > ____ > BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a non-profit 501 ©(3) community organization for veggies to network, find support and promote veg*nism. > > Events Calendar - http://bayareaveg.org/events > Newsletter - http://bayareaveg.org/news > Veg Mentor Program - http://bayareaveg.org/mentor > Ultimate Guide - http://bayareaveg.org/ug > Veg Food Finder - http://bayareaveg.org/finder > Charter & Post Guidelines - http://bayareaveg.org/charter > Compassionate Living Program - http://bayareaveg.org/cl > Map It Veg - http://www.frappr.com/baveg > ____ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 My bad. The person at the restaurant said that Greeks " think " they invented vegetarianism, in a playful way, so I didn't mean to imply any sort of arrogance in what they said. The way I wrote my text was misleading. Thank you for the notes you've emailed me. They are very enlightening. Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 SamL wrote: "Instead, shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as livingand letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece?" Are you suggesting we "punish" Greeks for the fact that many people eat meat today? Or did I misunderstand? Thea Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Yes, I agree with Thea. SamL's message seemed awfully extreme to me. It does seem that vegetariansim/veganism should be the natural state of humans. But humans have been eating meat since before recorded history, so blaming the Greeks for the fact that humans simply continued to eat meat after them is a little out there. They were just a link in the chain, not it's beginning. Instead, how about congratulating them for being the ones to "find the way" again? Claiming they "invented" vegetarianism is a little bit of an exaggeration. I'm sure there were peoples before the Greeks that didn't eat meat. However, Greece CAN be credited with the first known major proliferation of vegetariansm - started by the philosopher Pythagorus and his followers. In fact, prior to the coining of the word 'vegetarian' in the 20th century, people who didn't eat meat were known for millenia as 'Pythagoreans.' -Mike BorgThea Langsam <thea_langsam wrote: SamL wrote: "Instead, shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as livingand letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece?" Are you suggesting we "punish" Greeks for the fact that many people eat meat today? Or did I misunderstand? Thea PhotosGot holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ______________________"All beings tremble before violence. All fear death, all love life. See yourself in others. Then whom can you hurt? What harm can you do?" - Buddha Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Yes and no. I was suggesting we punish Greeks, but I suggested it only to show, by comparison, how silly it would be to praise Greeks for " inventing " something so unnecessary to invent. ;-) If we wouldn't punish or even denigrate them for inventing meat-eating, why reward or even praise " them " for " inventing " vegetarianism? Of course, I've never understood the phenomenon of being proud of something someone in my country did a few decades ago--I mean, *I* didn't have anything to do with that, so why should I be especially proud? Why stop at the nation's shores, or my racial heritage? Why not be proud of the good things people have done, and ashamed of the bad things people have done? I guess I'm one of those people who has never understood race pride, nation-pride, or many of the other " pride's " people have for something they were born " with " or " as. " It'd be like me being " height-proud " or something! On the other hand, I do understand reparations for something others did--but that's another story. But, that's just me--I don't understand vicarious, collective-based pride, but I don't judge it, either. So, please *don't*punish the Greeks! Take care. Sam On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, Thea Langsam wrote: > SamL wrote: " Instead, shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as living > and letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece? " > > Are you suggesting we " punish " Greeks for the fact that many people eat meat today? Or did I misunderstand? > > Thea > > > > Photos > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 The fossil evidence indicates that cooking of flesh with fire (presumably for consumption) originated in hominids pre-dating homo sapiens so you'll have a hard time arguing vegetarianism as the evolutionary natural state. Regardless though, rape was a perfectly acceptable, effective, and widely employed procreation strategy used by many species including early hominids. Likewise murder was/still is widely used as a conflict resolution strategy. Using history and anthropology to argue ethics is ill-advised and ill-conceived. Morality is not how things were or how things are but how they should be. Oh, and punishing the progenitors (and their progeny) of the belief of flesh-eating? Oh please! Ever see the bumper sticker, " Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong? " All this evolutionary anthropological hand-waving over " natural " state is really a fancy way of saying " monkey see, monkey do. " Instead of punishing a possible " human criminal " , perhaps you'd start with other carnivorous animals whose dietary behaviors may have influenced our own impressionable palates? Exercise compassion and allow others who disagree with you to find their own path. Five years ago, I was saying, " PETA stands for People Eating Tasty Animals. " Three and half years ago, I became vegan. Punish my flesh-eating progenitors (who may or may not have been Greek) and you silence my voice as an advocate for the animals. Careful what you wish for! Matthew , SamL <saml@d...> wrote: > > Hmm. Why are humans so . . . arrogant? Wouldn't it be the case that some > pre-human species " invented " vegetarianism eons before humans crawled the > earth? Isn't that what the archaeological evidence, the evidence > indicating that many pre-humanoid species (and perhaps early humans as > well) did not eat meat, indicates? > > If so, shouldn't we assume the " natural " state is vegetarianism, and not > allow any nationality to take credit for its " invention. " Instead, > shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented > murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, > shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as living > and letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece? > > Sam > > On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, brunoandherman wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I made a reservation for a group of vegetarians at a Greek > > restaurant, and they told me that Greeks invented vegetarianism. I > > had seen some quotes by Greek philosophers about vegetarianism, so I > > knew it was a popular choice, but what she said intrigued me. Does > > anyone have information about the roots of vegetarianism, perhaps > > predating the Greek philosophers? I'd also be interested in anything > > I could read about Greece and the logic they used to come to the > > conclusion that vegetarianism was the way to go. I figured there > > were plenty of people on this list who could offer some interesting > > insights, and it would be fun to discuss this topic at this dinner. > > > > Thanks! > > Cheryl > > > > Here are some links I quickly found on the internet. > > > > Quotes from Greek philosophers: Socrates, Plutarch, Plato, and > > Pythagoras (deemed " father of vegetarianism " ) > > > > http://www.gentleworld.org/philosophers.html > > > > http://www.gentleworld.org/VEGAN/you_are_not_alone.htm > > > > ----- > > " Throughout human history, advocates of vegetarianism have employed > > moral and spiritual arguments to express their disdain for eating > > the flesh of animals. Ancient writers such as Ovid and Plutarch > > deplored the killing of innocent creatures for food. Plutarch > > stated: " I am astonished to think what appetite first induced man to > > taste of a dead carcass or what motive could suggest the notion of > > nourishing himself with the flesh of animals which he saw, just > > before, bleating, bellowing, walking, and looking about them. " The > > Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who lived towards the end of the 6th > > century BC, argued that the flesh of beasts contaminated and > > brutalized the soul. In recognition of Pythagoras' commitment, > > vegetarians were known as Pythagoreans until the mid-19th century. " > > > > http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet & dbid=6 > > > > ----- > > > > An interesting article on the history of human development and meat > > consumption: > > > > " The man considered to be the " father " of vegetarianism was a sixth- > > century-B.C. Greek philosopher named Pythagoras. Pythagoras, born > > approximately 580 B.C., was also a brilliant mathematician and > > theorist, and is perhaps best known as the discoverer of the > > Pythagorean Theorem and many other mathematical ideas. He believed > > that the Earth moved around the sun, not yet proven in his day, and > > founded a society that thought meat-eating was taboo. He contended > > that a vegetarian lifestyle was the most natural and healthiest > > around. In fact, thanks to Pythagoras, the " real " vegetarian > > movement started in ancient Greece. > > > > Pythagoras was able to convince many other important Greek > > philosophers, including Socrates and Plato, that vegetarianism was > > the best way to eat. Many future vegetarians, including George > > Bernard Shaw and Dr. J.H. Kellogg, were greatly influenced by the > > progressive Greek philosopher. In fact, the term vegetarian was not > > used to describe non-meat eaters until the late nineteenth century. > > Until that time, people on a meatless diet were called > > Pythagoreans. " > > > > http://groups.msn.com/CrazyVegan/yourwebpage.msnw > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a non-profit 501 ©(3) community organization for veggies to network, find support and promote veg*nism. > > > > Events Calendar - http://bayareaveg.org/events > > Newsletter - http://bayareaveg.org/news > > Veg Mentor Program - http://bayareaveg.org/mentor > > Ultimate Guide - http://bayareaveg.org/ug > > Veg Food Finder - http://bayareaveg.org/finder > > Charter & Post Guidelines - http://bayareaveg.org/charter > > Compassionate Living Program - http://bayareaveg.org/cl > > Map It Veg - http://www.frappr.com/baveg > > ____ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2006 Report Share Posted January 9, 2006 Matthew, didn't you see the wink in my previous response? More below: On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, matthew wrote: > The fossil evidence indicates that cooking of flesh with fire > (presumably for consumption) originated in hominids pre-dating homo > sapiens so you'll have a hard time arguing vegetarianism as the > evolutionary natural state. Of course you are correct. Presumably. It is the presumption, however, that makes that evidence questionable. Other evidence, of jawbones and teeth, indicates human ancestors did not eat meat. I believe we are both right--some did, and some did not. But, because the find of a fragment of bone can dramatically alter our understanding of the evolutionary path, we really can't say much about what came first, what led to what, and so on. All we can say with confidence is that both occurred. > > Regardless though, rape was a perfectly acceptable, effective, and > widely employed procreation strategy used by many species including > early hominids. Likewise murder was/still is widely used as a > conflict resolution strategy. Using history and anthropology to argue > ethics is ill-advised and ill-conceived. Morality is not how things > were or how things are but how they should be. > Agreed. But I wasn't arguing ethics. I was apportioning responsibility for developments in the past, with a twinkle in my eye to suggest doing so is not worth the time. I thought the idea so absurd one would catch my drift. Seems you agree as to the absurdity. My bad for sounding too serious. > Oh, and punishing the progenitors (and their progeny) of the belief of > flesh-eating? Oh please! Ever see the bumper sticker, " Why do we > kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong? " > All this evolutionary anthropological hand-waving over " natural " state > is really a fancy way of saying " monkey see, monkey do. " Instead of > punishing a possible " human criminal " , perhaps you'd start with other > carnivorous animals whose dietary behaviors may have influenced our > own impressionable palates? > Agreed. Didn't you see the wink in my previous post? > Exercise compassion and allow others who disagree with you to find > their own path. Five years ago, I was saying, " PETA stands for People > Eating Tasty Animals. " Three and half years ago, I became vegan. > Punish my flesh-eating progenitors (who may or may not have been > Greek) and you silence my voice as an advocate for the animals. I don't see any disagreement here. Looks like we are saying the same thing in different ways. > > Careful what you wish for! > Matthew > Sam > , SamL <saml@d...> wrote: > > > > Hmm. Why are humans so . . . arrogant? Wouldn't it be the case > that some > > pre-human species " invented " vegetarianism eons before humans > crawled the > > earth? Isn't that what the archaeological evidence, the evidence > > indicating that many pre-humanoid species (and perhaps early humans as > > well) did not eat meat, indicates? > > > > If so, shouldn't we assume the " natural " state is vegetarianism, and not > > allow any nationality to take credit for its " invention. " Instead, > > shouldn't we be looking for the possibly human criminal who invented > > murder of the innocents--and perhaps punish their progeny? And, if so, > > shouldn't we look first to the place where behavior so natural as living > > and letting live was so odd it had to be given a special name--Greece? > > > > Sam > > > > On Mon, 9 Jan 2006, brunoandherman wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I made a reservation for a group of vegetarians at a Greek > > > restaurant, and they told me that Greeks invented vegetarianism. I > > > had seen some quotes by Greek philosophers about vegetarianism, so I > > > knew it was a popular choice, but what she said intrigued me. Does > > > anyone have information about the roots of vegetarianism, perhaps > > > predating the Greek philosophers? I'd also be interested in anything > > > I could read about Greece and the logic they used to come to the > > > conclusion that vegetarianism was the way to go. I figured there > > > were plenty of people on this list who could offer some interesting > > > insights, and it would be fun to discuss this topic at this dinner. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Cheryl > > > > > > Here are some links I quickly found on the internet. > > > > > > Quotes from Greek philosophers: Socrates, Plutarch, Plato, and > > > Pythagoras (deemed " father of vegetarianism " ) > > > > > > http://www.gentleworld.org/philosophers.html > > > > > > http://www.gentleworld.org/VEGAN/you_are_not_alone.htm > > > > > > ----- > > > " Throughout human history, advocates of vegetarianism have employed > > > moral and spiritual arguments to express their disdain for eating > > > the flesh of animals. Ancient writers such as Ovid and Plutarch > > > deplored the killing of innocent creatures for food. Plutarch > > > stated: " I am astonished to think what appetite first induced man to > > > taste of a dead carcass or what motive could suggest the notion of > > > nourishing himself with the flesh of animals which he saw, just > > > before, bleating, bellowing, walking, and looking about them. " The > > > Greek philosopher Pythagoras, who lived towards the end of the 6th > > > century BC, argued that the flesh of beasts contaminated and > > > brutalized the soul. In recognition of Pythagoras' commitment, > > > vegetarians were known as Pythagoreans until the mid-19th century. " > > > > > > http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=diet & dbid=6 > > > > > > ----- > > > > > > An interesting article on the history of human development and meat > > > consumption: > > > > > > " The man considered to be the " father " of vegetarianism was a sixth- > > > century-B.C. Greek philosopher named Pythagoras. Pythagoras, born > > > approximately 580 B.C., was also a brilliant mathematician and > > > theorist, and is perhaps best known as the discoverer of the > > > Pythagorean Theorem and many other mathematical ideas. He believed > > > that the Earth moved around the sun, not yet proven in his day, and > > > founded a society that thought meat-eating was taboo. He contended > > > that a vegetarian lifestyle was the most natural and healthiest > > > around. In fact, thanks to Pythagoras, the " real " vegetarian > > > movement started in ancient Greece. > > > > > > Pythagoras was able to convince many other important Greek > > > philosophers, including Socrates and Plato, that vegetarianism was > > > the best way to eat. Many future vegetarians, including George > > > Bernard Shaw and Dr. J.H. Kellogg, were greatly influenced by the > > > progressive Greek philosopher. In fact, the term vegetarian was not > > > used to describe non-meat eaters until the late nineteenth century. > > > Until that time, people on a meatless diet were called > > > Pythagoreans. " > > > > > > http://groups.msn.com/CrazyVegan/yourwebpage.msnw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____ > > > BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a non-profit 501 ©(3) community > organization for veggies to network, find support and promote veg*nism. > > > > > > Events Calendar - http://bayareaveg.org/events > > > Newsletter - http://bayareaveg.org/news > > > Veg Mentor Program - http://bayareaveg.org/mentor > > > Ultimate Guide - http://bayareaveg.org/ug > > > Veg Food Finder - http://bayareaveg.org/finder > > > Charter & Post Guidelines - http://bayareaveg.org/charter > > > Compassionate Living Program - http://bayareaveg.org/cl > > > Map It Veg - http://www.frappr.com/baveg > > > ____ > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Hi, The Greeks had a major influence on our current society. So when they say they think they " invented " vegetarianism, I bet they mean that they created one of the first major vegetarian philosophical concepts, or vegetarian movements, that have become a part of Western thought. I don't think they would generalize it to apply to every creature or every civilization. (Hey, I would be proud if my ancestors invented vegetarianism, but sadly, they were hardcore meat- eaters from cold countries.) I recall a national geographic special, I believe, that I watched many years ago. It described how there were different groups of creatures (inbetween ape-like and human-like) that we could have evolved from. I also watched, with dismay, as they talked about how the more warlike meat-eating groups killed off the gentler vegetarian groups, and we were left with meat-eaters, which we evolved from. My memory of the program is a bit fuzzy, but I believe that's how it went. These theories are subject to change, of course. I'm wondering if there weren't similar vegetarian movements that occurred at about the same time in the East. I also read something on the Internet that suggested that Roman soldiers preferred a vegetarian diet and complained if they had to eat meat, which is interesting, but I wonder if it's really true. Thanks for your insights, Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 --- brunoandherman <brunoandherman wrote: > I'm wondering if there weren't similar vegetarian > movements that occurred at about the same time in the East. There are millions of people in India (especially in Southern India) who lead totally vegetarian lives. The religion of Jainism ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism ) is over 2500 years old, and is the only religion wherein all followers, both monks and practicing lay persons of all sects and traditions, are required to be vegetarian. I'm sure there are many other such examples. Ajay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Thanks JP and Ajay for bringing that up. I had wondered if the Indians had been vegetarian longer, and have always admired Jainism as a religion. Does anyone know of examples of ancient vegetarians in cold climates? Or do you think it was primarily in warmer ones? I think there were Native Americans who were vegetarian in the southwest. But to my knowledge I have never heard of an ancient people who were vegetarian in a cold climate. Thanks, Cheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Famous Vegetarians is one of my favorite books! I find it so reassuring and inspiring to know that long before the development of factory farming, people still found profound ethical, spiritual, and nutritional reasons to abstain from meat. There are some really great historical antectdotes as well. Recommended reading! jp wrote: This debate can really be answered to a large degree by the excellentbooks and research of Rynn Berry, prof. at Columbia in NYC. He wrote somepopular books too, like Famous Vegetarians, Vegetarianism and the WorldsReligions, as well as a new one about raw foods called the Fruits ofTantalus.According to him, vegetarianism, esp. through the Jains in India, has beena tradition for 4-5 thousands years, well before the rise of Greekphilosophy. I think he even suggests that Pythagoras and others wereinfluenced by the these early Indian vegetarians and vegans. JP Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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