biting the hand that feeds - let's educate - let's get along

[Guest guest]

I still feel we're nitpicking the vegetarian restaurants. If we continue to educate, rather thenberate we'll all have a place to go.When did the veggie Jews start going to only Kosher restaurants? I remember going to Herbivore one time, which I don't believe is Kosher.

What happened to love, compassion and forgiveness?If this continues, we'll all be eating only at overpriced Millennium and Greens, which will be our only2 choices. Let's give our vegetarian restaurants a little slack, people.

Also, I hope people re-read post about PF Changs, which has several " no animal products. " Had I not read that newpost, I would have foolhardishly believed PF Changs only hand one, as a misinformed poster wrote, vegetarian dish.

ClydeOn 9/26/07, VeggieJews <VeggieJews wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tammy is quite correct in saying that the issue is

trust. Given that issue, it is unfortunate that both Shangri-La and Bok Choi

Garden pose particular

problems for the Jewish veg*n community.

 

Bok Choi Garden

states on

its menu that its food is consistent with kosher laws, thus giving the

impression that it is a kosher restaurant. In fact, Bok Choi has no "hecksher"

(independent certification that it is in compliance with kosher laws). Without

a hecksher, it is impossible to know whether it is or is not truly

kosher. When this matter was brought to the attention of Ken, the manager

of Bok Choi, by a VeggieJews' leader who asked him to remove any reference

to being kosher from his menus, he would not do so. The best he would do

was to promise to add a piece of paper to cover up the reference to "kosher"

compliance on the evening that the VeggieJews group planned to host a dinner

there. As a result, VeggieJews cancelled its planned dinner.

 

Shangri-La poses an even bigger problem. It is the

only Bay Area veg*n restaurant with a hecksher and it is located in an area of

the City with a large Jewish population. Accordingly, VeggieJews used to

host events there. But we had a problem when we were told at first that

their fortune cookies were vegan and then later told on another occasion that

they contained egg. Tammy's report that the Pie Pa Tofu Balls at

Shangri-La were promoted as vegan but turned out not to be is

disconcerting. These two discrepancies may sound like small matters but, once

again, the issue is trust. Sadly, there is no trustworthy heckshered

veg*n restaurant in the Bay Area.

 

Based upon Winnie's post about her recent conversation

with William, the owner of Shangri-La, it is apparent that he is uninformed about

the conduct of his business and fails to provide proper supervision to insure

that his customers are treated with honesty and respect. It is also

unfortunate that Ken, the manager of Bok

Choi Garden,

has so little respect for his customers that he misrepresents his restaurant as

kosher when it is apparently not. Accordingly, San Francisco veg*ns eat at these two

restaurants at their own risk. In order to protect our members from

misleading information that may cause them to violate their values, the

VeggieJews group will no longer hosts events at either restaurant.

 

Thanks to Tammy for bringing this issue to the attention of

the Bay Area veg*n community.

 

Pete Cohon, founder

VeggieJews

 

 

 

 

 

-- Clyde Lerner, In The Moment Computing, Our NEW Office Phone: 408.732.8500 www.ITMComputing.com " We relieve your Technology Stress "

Check out the folks we use to relieve our technology stress: www.ITMPartners.comOur Birthday/Anniversary Reminder System: http://www.sendcardswithease.com/

[Guest guest]

In , " Clyde Lerner " <clydelerner

wrote: " When did the veggie Jews start going to only Kosher restaurants? I

remember going to Herbivore one time, which I don't believe is Kosher. "

 

VeggieJews has not started going only to kosher restaurants, Clyde. I wish

we could do that so as not to exclude from our events observant Jews who eat

only certified kosher foods. But, in the Bay Area, where only Shangri-La is

certified kosher and it has serious trust problems, that is not possible.

Our objection to Bok Choi Garden is not related to the fact that it is not

kosher but to the fact that it claims to be kosher when it is not

" heckshered " (properly certified), thus misleading customers.

 

Pete Cohon

[Guest guest]

Here's a radical thought: why not work with Bok Choi

to get them certified kosher? I'm sure it'll be easy

for the VeggieJews to find a Rabbi who will examine

their practices and certify them. A win-win for all.

 

But, just to show my ignorance here: isn't all vegan

food by definition kosher?

 

Ajay

 

--- VeggieJews <VeggieJews wrote:

> Our objection to Bok Choi Garden is not related to

> the fact that it is not

> kosher but to the fact that it claims to be kosher

> when it is not

> " heckshered " (properly certified), thus misleading

> customers.

>

> Pete Cohon

[Guest guest]

Thanks for suggesting that VeggieJews work with Ken at Bok Choi Garden to

have the restaurant certified kosher, Ajay. Actually, we already did that

by referring Ken to the 2 major koshering authorities in this area. Ken was

not interested.

 

You asked if all vegan food is kosher by definition. The answer is a bit

complex due to the complexities of " kashrut " (kosher laws). All vegan food

is, by definition, " pareva, " which means that it is neither dairy nor meat,

such as grains, beans, vegetables and fruits. As you probably know, dairy

and meat must be kept separate under kosher laws. An observant Jews will not

eat one within four hours after eating the other. However, while pareva

foods can be eaten with dairy or meat meals, they are not necessarily

kosher. That depends on the conditions under which they are prepared. For

example, pareva foods prepared in a non-kosher kitchen such as one where

meat and dairy are mixed would not be kosher. Even in a certified kosher

dairy restaurant, pareva food would not be kosher if a cook brought in a

meat sandwich for lunch and ate it there. That would un-kosher the kitchen

and everything in it. Also for example, pareva food prepared in a meat and

pareva certified kosher deli would not be kosher if a waiter brought in a

ham sandwich for lunch and ate it in the kitchen as ham is never kosher.

Kosher laws are very strict; thus the need for a " hecksher " (certification

by an independent rabbinical koshering authority).

 

Here's a real mind bender: Pareva foods not only include grains, fruits,

vegetables and beans, as one might expect, but also eggs and fish. For that

reason, kosher dairy restaurants often serve fish and it is not uncommon for

folks in the Jewish community to think that vegetarians eat fish. Changing

that attitude is no easy task.

 

Pete Cohon

[Guest guest]

Ajay & All,

 

All vegan food, just about, is kosher.

 

But, certified kosher means the place is inspected initially and

regularly by a rabbi, and it's very expensive; a lot of restaurants

either can't afford it or don't want to pay for it.

 

Only a small percentage of Jewish people (at least the Bay Area ones I

know) keep kosher and an even smaller percentage of those who keep

kosher eat at only certified kosher restaurants so few restaurants are

willing to get certified. Know a bit about this from friends who keep

kosher, including one couple who will eat only in certified kosher

kitchens: restaurants & private residences.

 

Shangri-La is the only veg*n restaurant in San Francisco that has

kosher certification. It never hurts to ask but I've asked a couple of

veg*n places if they'd consider being certified kosher and none of

those I've asked have expressed any interest.

 

Lisa

 

 

On 9/28/07, Ajay <ajayboots wrote:

Here's a radical thought: why not work with Bok Choi

> to get them certified kosher? I'm sure it'll be easy

> for the VeggieJews to find a Rabbi who will examine

> their practices and certify them. A win-win for all.

>

> But, just to show my ignorance here: isn't all vegan

> food by definition kosher?

>

> Ajay

>

>

> --- VeggieJews <VeggieJews wrote:

> > Our objection to Bok Choi Garden is not related to

> > the fact that it is not

> > kosher but to the fact that it claims to be kosher

> > when it is not

> > " heckshered " (properly certified), thus misleading

> > customers.

> >

> > Pete Cohon

>

>

>

>

 

 

--

" Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends " - George Bernard Shaw

" The reasonable (person) adapts (herself/himself) to the world; the

unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to (herself/himself).

Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable (person). " - George

Bernard Shaw

[Guest guest]

does anyone happen to know the differences between pareva, pareve, and parve? and which are vegan? now i know pareva is not necessarily vegan (fish and eggs... not vegan). but these others? willVeggieJews <VeggieJews wrote: Thanks for suggesting that VeggieJews work with Ken at Bok Choi Garden tohave the restaurant certified kosher, Ajay. Actually, we already did thatby referring Ken to the 2 major koshering authorities in this area. Ken wasnot interested.You

asked if all vegan food is kosher by definition. The answer is a bitcomplex due to the complexities of "kashrut" (kosher laws). All vegan foodis, by definition, "pareva," which means that it is neither dairy nor meat,such as grains, beans, vegetables and fruits. As you probably know, dairyand meat must be kept separate under kosher laws. An observant Jews will noteat one within four hours after eating the other. However, while parevafoods can be eaten with dairy or meat meals, they are not necessarilykosher. That depends on the conditions under which they are prepared. Forexample, pareva foods prepared in a non-kosher kitchen such as one wheremeat and dairy are mixed would not be kosher. Even in a certified kosherdairy restaurant, pareva food would not be kosher if a cook brought in ameat sandwich for lunch and ate it there. That would un-kosher the kitchenand everything in it. Also for example, pareva food prepared in a meat

andpareva certified kosher deli would not be kosher if a waiter brought in aham sandwich for lunch and ate it in the kitchen as ham is never kosher.Kosher laws are very strict; thus the need for a "hecksher" (certificationby an independent rabbinical koshering authority). Here's a real mind bender: Pareva foods not only include grains, fruits,vegetables and beans, as one might expect, but also eggs and fish. For thatreason, kosher dairy restaurants often serve fish and it is not uncommon forfolks in the Jewish community to think that vegetarians eat fish. Changingthat attitude is no easy task. Pete Cohon

oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

[Guest guest]

Will asked what the difference is between

pareva, pareve and parve and which ones are vegan.

 

The difference between pareva, pareve and

parve is not a difference of substance but one of translation from Hebrew into

English. That is to say, all three are rough translations of the same

Hebrew word. There is no official spelling of such translations, which is

why the Jewish Festival of Lights is sometimes spelled Hanukah, Chanukah and

Hanukkah.

 

None of the three spellings of pareva that

you have mentioned designates foods that are necessarily vegan. The foods

might contain fish, eggs or products made from those non-vegan foods. Thus,

you need to read the contents carefully to make sure that non-vegan items are

not included.

 

Pete Cohon

 

[Guest guest]

Having explained that fish and eggs, non-vegan foods, are “pareva”

(neither meat nor dairy) under kosher laws like grains, beans, vegetables and

fruits, which are vegan, perhaps I should explain why that seeming

inconsistency exists.

 

First, one needs to remember that, to observant Jews, kosher

laws are not a matter of reason or logic but commandments from G-d. In

other words, they do not have to make sense. Second, it is noteworthy

that the ancestors of modern Jews consisted of 12 nomadic tribes of herders,

not farmers or fishermen. They came by vegetables, grains, beans, fruits,

fish and eggs by trading animals, usually goats, and animal products to non-Jewish

farmers.

 

The kosher laws were established in the Torah (Five Books of

Moses), which forms the basis of all Jewish laws and beliefs. The Torah

states that it is forbidden to boil a kid in the milk of its mother. The

Talmud (rabbinical interpretations of Torah law) expanded that phrase to forbid

cooking the meat of a slaughtered animal in its own dairy products, such as

milk or butter, or serving meat and dairy products together at one

sitting. The Biblical injunction relates exclusively to mammals because only

they produce milk. The injunction does not relate to animals that do not

produce milk such as fish. Thus, although common sense might see an

inconsistency in the fact that meat and fish are treated differently under

kosher laws, there is a Biblical consistency.

 

It is noteworthy that Jews were once commanded by “halacha”

(Jewish law) to eat meat on Shabbat (the Sabbath) and holidays. That

commandment applied during the time of the great Temple

in Jerusalem,

which was the site of ritual animal sacrifices and was destroyed by the Romans

in the year 70. Since then, Jews have not performed animal sacrifices.

It is now widely, although not universally, accepted that the commandment to

eat meat on Shabbat on holidays only applied when the great Temple

in Jerusalem

existed and has not applied since then. Thus, the Shulchan Aruch, the

universally accepted code of modern Jewish law, does not require observant Jews

to eat meat on holy days.

 

Therefore, even an observant Jews can be a vegan without

offending Jewish commandments and other laws.

 

Peter Cohon

 

[Guest guest]

William, From my friends who know such things, my understanding is

that none of them are necessarily either vegan or vegetarian. - Lisa

 

On 9/29/07, William Beazley <wbeazleyiii wrote:

>

> does anyone happen to know the differences between pareva, pareve, and

> parve? and which are vegan? now i know pareva is not necessarily vegan (fish

> and eggs... not vegan). but these others?

>

> will

--

" Animals are my friends and I don't eat my friends " - George Bernard Shaw

" The reasonable (person) adapts (herself/himself) to the world; the

unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to (herself/himself).

Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable (person). " - George

Bernard Shaw

[Guest guest]

Spelling is the only difference among pareva, pareve, and parve.  They are all the same: not meat and not dairy, but inclusive of eggs and fish (but only eggs (no blood spots) and fish (fins,gills, not bottom feeders) that are Kosher).Grew up in a Kosher home,Myles

[Guest guest]

And... not all mammals are kosher (check the hoofs!), though (but for

certain birds -- raptors are " traif " , dirty) chicke/turkey are

considered fleishig (flesh, meat), while fish is considered neither

meat nor dairy (milthing).

Baruch Mordechai ben Chaim Dovid (Myles)

[Guest guest]

Veganism and vegetarianism are concepts foreign to kashrut (kosher

laws); they just don't apply. However... things that are fleisheg

are NEVER vegetarian or vegan, things that are miltheg are NEVER

vegan but are vegetarian, and things that are pareve are generally

vegan and vegetarian, but for fish and eggs.

 

The above assumes complete vegetarianism and is exclusive of lacto,

lacto-ovo, pesco, and whatever one calls bird eating " vegetarians. "

 

Myles... again