How can really nice bay area folks care so little about animals?

December 18, 2008

"How can such "super nice" people care so little about suffering "food animals"?

Stephanie"Hi Stephanie,I agree that it is puzzling how educated, "healthy," politically- and environmentally-aware, caring people choose to remain ignorant about all the negative aspects of the meat and dairy industry. They buy cruelty-free body care products, but do not make the connection in their diet. The answers are woven in the complex web of the human psyche. To help understand this phenomenon, I suggest reading the excellent book, "The World Peace Diet," by Dr. Will Tuttle. He describes the slow, long-term conditioning for eating meat, beginning with babies being fed cow's milk and baby "food" in jars that contain veal (how ironic is that?!). Tuttle does not lay blame on those who are in such deep denial because of this cultural upbringing. I think that is the right approach to take so as not to stir up the defensive behaviors that you've observed. I have found that with patient, compassionate discussions (one on one, not in a group),

people will listen and begin to understand why vegan is the best option. And remember to back off right before those defensive eyes start glazing over. Donna

December 18, 2008

From: bekindbecauseDate: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:54:42 -0800 How can really nice bay area folks care so little about animals?

How can such "super nice" people care so little about suffering "food animals"?

My two cents on this subject -

When people ask me why I am vegan, I am completely honest and tell them. People who have known me for years accept the fact. People who did not know me before going vegan also accept the fact. My reason for going vegan had nothing to do with animals. I was 34 years old, weighed over 300 lbs, had to wear diapers because there was so much weight on my bladder that I was incontinent, couldn't walk more than 50 yards without getting out of breath. I was deaperate to change my life and this is how I did it. Now, I go on 10 mile hikes and 60 mile bicycle rides. Once I was below 250 pounds, I no longer needed diapers. Now people admire me for my energy -which I have without the use of coffee. My story about why I went vegan is not threatening to them. I am not challenging their values or morality. They accept that I did this for my health and do not question it because they see me now. (Although some people do not believe me until they see the "before pictures"). However, if they have health issues, sometimes they ask me if going vegan might help them. Although I am a registered nurse, I do not give medical advice. I usually say something like "A vegan diet may help" then refer them to Dr. McDougall or PCRM. This may be their first exposure to veganism and if it's about doing something good for themselves, it is less threatening than bringing up animal issues.

Mary Anne

-- "Our task must be to widen our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi

Send e-mail faster without improving your typing skills. Get your Hotmail® account.

December 18, 2008

Thanks for that post. I ask myself that question all the time, and can come up

with no answer except that for many people, if it's out of sight, it's out of

mind, and they like it that way. They don't want to give up certain things--like

food they like--so they'll justify it any way they can so they can still feel

like good people. And if that means making you feel like a bad person than so be

it. It totally sucks and makes me really sad. I don't blame anyone for not being

vegan or vegetarian but I would at least expect them to admire it rather than

put it down. So...if anyone has a less cynical answer than me I would love to

hear it!

-Leana

December 18, 2008

Funny that i read this today because i was just targeted yesterday in front of my entire company a our holiday party. We sat at a huge table and about 30 people all looked at me when someone asked what my weird contribution to the potluck was (Field Roast) and why i am vegan. Its really hard to explain something that makes more sense to me than anything else ive EVER chosen to do in my life. its like someone asking my why i dont murder someone each day. its such a basic concept to me that it isnt even a concept... it IS me. i dont even know how to put it into words sometimes. Ive learned long ago too, that you cant get angry or graphic or " inappropriate " because you are both further ostracizing yourself and working against the agenda. i think i said something along the lines of " i dont like to cause suffering when i don't have to.. taste the Field roast. its delicious! " alot of people did taste it and like it. but people inevitably walk all over me in those conversations and end up talking about how much they love bacon and it seems to end there because i cant be the maniac at the company lunch who starts ranting about animal rights. Someone asked if i mind sitting next to other people who eat meat (as i sat between two coworkers eating chicken wings and hot dogs) and i lied. i said " as long as i dont have to eat it its fine " , but its NOT FINE! its not ok that the person next to me is eating the flesh of a being who died in vain, its not ok that that i have to pretend to be ok with it and NOT because it bothers me and makes me uncomfortable personally.... They dont understand that it isnt about me, and its not about my own comfort, but about the fact that i believe it shouldn't be happening at all. but i have to lie at times if i want to be normal, and i have to be ok with it if i want to keep my friends, and still be able to love my own parents. i have to be sympathetic to the conditioning and brainwashing that has occurred and try to affect change one tiny baby step at a time. Not fast enough. I feel stuck and so desparately sad too when i realize that even in this liberal place there isn't a movement or a camaraderie. There isnt an uprising of furious people who see the horrible truth that i see. This is the world that we live in. yuck. its nice to hear other voices saying what i feel, and know that their are others out there who get it. thank you.

-joelleOn Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Nettie Schwager <nettierose wrote:

Hi Stephanie and everyone,

I know how you feel, I have experieced the same feeling so many times.

Here's my take:

I think it comes from a blend of deep lifelong social conditioning,

human nature,

learned cravings and addictions and lack of information. The culture has set up

rationalizations and methods to justify what we do to animals.

Also, and I think this is important, as long as non vegans

can make the issue about you - you are a fanatic, care more about

animals than people,

are over-emotional and irrational, etc. then they can avoid the real

issue which is the violence,

cruelty and suffering we inflict. On some level they know it and this

is why they get uncomfortable

because they want to block out any feelings of guilt or discomfort.

The World Peace Diet by Will Tuttle and Living Amoung Meat Eaters by

Carol Adams discuss these things.

The more imprtant question is how to deal with it and how to get

others to break through their barriers.

I have been trying to figure this out myself for years. I don't really

know. This is my most recent and I think best approach:

I explain veganism with words like compasion, non-violence,

gentleness, the golden rule: things that most people, especially the

kind of people you referred to, say they agree with. I explain that

pain is pain and suffering is suffering and veganism is not only about

animals but compassion for all and veganism is a way to live

consistently with the values that they have inside. Depending on the

person and situation, I try to judge

what to say, how much to say, and when to say it. I refer them to

books, DVDs, or give them pamplets.

While people are eating animals is not the time to talk about this, so

I might just write down the name of a book or 2.

In fact, it seems to me that most people go vegan from reading a book,

or watching a video, or reading pamplets. So I think you can plant

seeds with words and then give them pamplets or refer them to other

sources, or lend or give them these sources.

I try to always make it not about me being vegan but about the

suffering that feeling beings endure. This gets back to my previous

point. As long as they can make it about you they can dismiss and

avoid the issue of the suffering and what animals endure. Don't sound

like you are judging them or sound angry.

Always try to find common ground and explain that you used to eat all

of those foods until you read certain books and learned the facts,

etc.

Of course, I still have interactions that I don't feel good about, but

I learn from them and try to figure out what to say better the next

time.

As I said, I don't have the answer, if I did then everyone I know

would be vegan, but above is some of what I have concluded.

Any other suggestions out there?

Nettie

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM, S Falcone <bekindbecause wrote:

> Dear Fellow Veg*ns,

>

> Hi and very happy holidays to all of you : )

>

> I am wondering if anyone has any insight into, and suggestions for, a

> problem that I encounter again and again.

>

> Here we are, in the bay area, that bastion of liberal, educated,

> " enlightened " beings. The bay area, with its large number of genuinely

> compassionate and caring people.

>

> And yet these same people, who collect toys for needy children, volunteer at

> soup kitchens, etc., do *not* want to hear anything about being vegan.

>

> I have been to a number of holiday parties this year, where the folks were

> truly kind, warm, friendly and caring. The kind of people

> that almost anyone would say were exceptionally nice

>

> Because food was served, the fact that I'm vegan came up. Not only was the

> subject *quickly* changed, but in fact some people eyed me suspiciously.

> It was as if I was wearing a sign that said: " I am better than you are. I

> am more moral. Also, I am a fanatic with confused priorities who cares more

> about animals than people " .

>

> It is just so confusing and angering to me to watch such (otherwise)

> authentically kind, open-minded people, who 99.9% of the world would

> consider great people, chow down on ham, beef, turkey, chicken, bacon, etc.

> And most of them " own " dogs and cats that they treat very well.

>

> I want to scream " What is wrong with you people?! " But of course that would

> only reinforce their conviction that I am strange.

>

> Finally, if I lived in a small town in the Midwest or the South or

> something, I would not be having this reaction. But these are people who

> know (and some are even friends with) a vegan or two, and so they can easily

> know the reality of " animal husbandry " . And they don't want to. I do not

> get it.

>

> How can such " super nice " people care so little about suffering " food

> animals " ?

>

> Stephanie

>

> --

> " Our task must be to widen our circle of compassion to embrace all living

> creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. " Albert Einstein

>

> " The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways

> its animals are treated. " Mahatma Gandhi

>

--

" The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how

deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo. When we have a

choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of

another. "

Albert Schweitzer

December 18, 2008

Hi everyone,I am afraid that this might tick some of you off, but I just want to share some of the thoughts from " the other side " .I am the only vegetarian in my extended group of friends, all of which are left-leaning, environmentally conscious, and educated. So, why aren't more of them vegetarian?

We've talked about vegetarianism a lot since my becoming one. And our discussion frequently comes to this conclusion:A lot of animals that we keep as food will not survive without humans raising them. They are raised for one purpose. They exist because humans have raised them. Their species will likely go extinct in the absence of humans caring for them. The fact that these animals are raised for only one purpose means that if we decide to forgo the consumption of meat altogether, they would not have been born at all. They would not have lived at all - is that better than to have lived, raised with care in a humanely operated ranch?

Do any of them believe in inhumane factory farming? No. Not at all. Even when I was not vegetarian, I only bought from ranches were humanely treated animals lived their full lives prior to fulfilling their ultimate fate. We appreciated their sacrifice and treated each meal with respect.

So, consuming meat is not necessarily associated with the nasty factory farming ways in the minds of many meat-eating liberals...With that said, there is no argument that a diet rich in vegetables and low in meat is much healthier for both ourselves and the environment. Perhaps if the animal rights approach doesn't ring a bell to those who believe that humanely treated animals are different from factory-farmed animals, then approaching the subject from an environmental view will strike a chord. The amount of carbon footprint from eating meat should be enough reason for people to start titrating down their meat consumption, in addition to the health-benefits of a vegetable rich diet. Besides, meatless cooking is so much more fun to make and tasty - which is the way I am trying to demonstrate to my non-veg friends about the benefits of a veg life!

I think many people think of veganism associated with too many cases like the man who was recently making harassing calls to the UCSF researchers, unfortunately. Alice

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Leana Rosetti <leana_r wrote:

Thanks for that post. I ask myself that question all the time, and can come up with no answer except that for many people, if it's out of sight, it's out of mind, and they like it that way. They don't want to give up certain things--like food they like--so they'll justify it any way they can so they can still feel like good people. And if that means making you feel like a bad person than so be it. It totally sucks and makes me really sad. I don't blame anyone for not being vegan or vegetarian but I would at least expect them to admire it rather than put it down. So...if anyone has a less cynical answer than me I would love to hear it!

-Leana

December 19, 2008

Yeah, " the other side " . And if my wife and I desire to eat the best protein for our bodies and thus consciously proceed to procreate, raise our children in a free-range manner (assume without human socialization (although that's not necessary philosophically)), and then eat them....what would those ass-wipes say to that?

It all comes down to the rights of the individual....human or nonhuman. Tom Regan's arguments are still consistent and cogent; there's no sound way to draw a moral line that would include ALL human individuals while excluding all nonhuman individuals. Et cetera.

It's better for each of the animals to never have existed.--MarkOn Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:57 PM, N. Alice Yamada <nyamada3 wrote:

[snip] And our discussion frequently comes to this conclusion:A lot of animals that we keep as food will not survive without humans raising them. They are raised for one purpose. They exist because humans have raised them. Their species will likely go extinct in the absence of humans caring for them. The fact that these animals are raised for only one purpose means that if we decide to forgo the consumption of meat altogether, they would not have been born at all. They would not have lived at all - is that better than to have lived, raised with care in a humanely operated ranch?

December 19, 2008

Hi Alice,

I would like to comment on your remarks. I'm glad you wrote. I am not

a fast typist,

and it would take me too long to give a complete and well written response,

I'm just going to fire off something.

I'll start with 2 quotes from Percy Bysshe Shelley. Here they are:

1. " I wish no living thing to suffer pain. "

2. " It were much better that a sentient being should never have

existed, than that ( he or she)

should have existed only to endure unmitigated misery. "

What happens to the animals is hidden from us. It is important to

educate ourselves about what goes on. I went vegetarian over 30 years

ago and was a vegetarian for 14 years and had no idea about factory

farming or about what happens in the dairy or egg industries. And it

was probably another 6 or more years after I gave up dairy and eggs

before I learned a lot of other things.

Factory farmed animals supply the vast majority of meat, eggs, and

dairy products that are consumed.

I think the percentage is around 95% to 98%, depending on whether it's

eggs or pork, etc.

The so called " humane " farms produce a very small amount of the

animal foods consumed.

If people insist on consuming animal products, it is certainly

preferable that they buy the free range, organic variety. But these

products are not cruelty free and it is important that consumers know

what they are buying. There are many intrinsic cruelties involved in

all animal agriculture including the free range. This information is

available online and through various organizations. Can someone send a

link to an article about this? Here are just a few of the cruelties:

male chicks can't lay eggs and so are killed in the cheapest way possible

male calves of dairy cows become veal

free range chickens are often debeaked and may never actually go out

calves of dairy cows are torn from their mothers so the milk the moms

make for their babies can be sold

they all are ultimately slaughtered

they go to the same horrible slaughterhouses

they suffer the same cruel transport to slaughter

Most people who buy the free range varieties are still supporting

practices that they wouldn't approve of if

they knew what went on. This is the key. Learning what goes on. The

terms free range and organic do not mean what people think.

Here are some books to read.

1. World Peace Diet

2. Thanking the Monkey

3. Skinny Bitch - very quick easy read

4. Why Animals Matter

Also check out websites of groups such as Mercy For Animals,

Compassion Over Killing, Farm Sanctuary, PETA, Vegan Outreach, to

learn about these issues.

Appealing to people's health concerns or enviromental concerns is fine

but at the same time it is

important to address the suffering of the animals because it matters.

Our culture teaches us that

it doesn't matter but it matters very much and we need to address

this. To abuse powerless animals

because we have the power to do so is not ok! We need to work towards

a compassionate and truely humane world.

Thanks for reading this.

Nettie

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 3:57 PM, N. Alice Yamada <nyamada3 wrote:

> Hi everyone,

>

> I am afraid that this might tick some of you off, but I just want to share

> some of the thoughts from " the other side " .

> I am the only vegetarian in my extended group of friends, all of which are

> left-leaning, environmentally conscious, and educated. So, why aren't more

> of them vegetarian?

> We've talked about vegetarianism a lot since my becoming one. And our

> discussion frequently comes to this conclusion:

> A lot of animals that we keep as food will not survive without humans

> raising them. They are raised for one purpose. They exist because humans

> have raised them. Their species will likely go extinct in the absence of

> humans caring for them. The fact that these animals are raised for only one

> purpose means that if we decide to forgo the consumption of meat altogether,

> they would not have been born at all. They would not have lived at all - is

> that better than to have lived, raised with care in a humanely operated

> ranch?

>

> Do any of them believe in inhumane factory farming? No. Not at all. Even

> when I was not vegetarian, I only bought from ranches were humanely treated

> animals lived their full lives prior to fulfilling their ultimate fate. We

> appreciated their sacrifice and treated each meal with respect.

> So, consuming meat is not necessarily associated with the nasty factory

> farming ways in the minds of many meat-eating liberals...

> With that said, there is no argument that a diet rich in vegetables and low

> in meat is much healthier for both ourselves and the environment. Perhaps

> if the animal rights approach doesn't ring a bell to those who believe that

> humanely treated animals are different from factory-farmed animals, then

> approaching the subject from an environmental view will strike a chord. The

> amount of carbon footprint from eating meat should be enough reason for

> people to start titrating down their meat consumption, in addition to the

> health-benefits of a vegetable rich diet. Besides, meatless cooking is so

> much more fun to make and tasty - which is the way I am trying to

> demonstrate to my non-veg friends about the benefits of a veg life!

> I think many people think of veganism associated with too many cases like

> the man who was recently making harassing calls to the UCSF researchers,

> unfortunately.

> Alice

>

> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Leana Rosetti <leana_r wrote:

>>

>> Thanks for that post. I ask myself that question all the time, and can

>> come up with no answer except that for many people, if it's out of sight,

>> it's out of mind, and they like it that way. They don't want to give up

>> certain things--like food they like--so they'll justify it any way they can

>> so they can still feel like good people. And if that means making you feel

>> like a bad person than so be it. It totally sucks and makes me really sad. I

>> don't blame anyone for not being vegan or vegetarian but I would at least

>> expect them to admire it rather than put it down. So...if anyone has a less

>> cynical answer than me I would love to hear it!

>>

>> -Leana

>>

>

--

" The thinking (person) must oppose all cruel customs, no matter how

deeply rooted in tradition and surrounded by a halo. When we have a

choice, we must avoid bringing torment and injury into the life of

another. "

Albert Schweitzer

December 19, 2008

Hello Stephanie,

I'm really sorry you're feeling frustrated. It can be very difficult to

be surrounded by people who we think may be sympathetic but who just

seem to not want to know anything about veganism.

In addition to the great comments by Nettie and Donna, I would add that

the Bay Area can be a peculiar area for promoting veganism. While there

is a lot of awareness about and accessibility for a vegan diet, we also

have a great awareness and availability of " humane " (and organic,

free-range, cage free, etc.) dairy, eggs and flesh as well as events

such as the Slow Food Nation that celebrate such products as chic and

progressive among a certain set. Add to this the mixed message of eating

less meat sent by some ostensibly vegan groups and this adds up to a lot

of ways in which people who care about these issues can avoid facing the

reality that any consumption of dairy, eggs and flesh involves the

killing of an individual.

In other parts of the country where I've done outreach, this has been

much less of an issue. Veganism might be seen as naive, classist,

unattainable, or just plain ignorant, but not so much, as it often is

here, as superceded by the many reasons given above. I think it's our

challenge to be patient among this noise, be consistent, unapologetic

and visible with our veganism, and wait for the personal outreach

opportunities to arise (and they will!). In the meantime, it helps me to

remember that, with so many forces working to marginalize veganism and

vegan advocacy, it is no wonder so many people don't see the connection

between speciesist and other forms of oppression.

For a vegan world,

Victor

--

Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

The Vegan Ideal: http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/

December 19, 2008

I receive the digest version of SFBAVEG and didn't realize until just

now that so many messages had come in earlier today in response to this

thread. I'm really appreciative of this discussion we've been having.

I've found it to be very interesting. Not only does the discussion

illustrate the challenge posed by " humane " meat I wrote about in my last

email, it exactly mirrors the dialogue that I (and perhaps you all) have

had countless times with others when speaking about animal agriculture

from the standpoint of reducing suffering and shows the contradictions

arising from this point of view.

Alice highlights many of the arguments I have heard time and again when

doing vegan outreach, particularly, in the Bay Area. When we frame the

discussion in terms of suffering, which does not challenge the use

itself, people naturally choose the easy option that seems to yield less

suffering ( " humane " meat). After all, that's what we're asking them to

do, right? This is where we get the euphemisms about sacrifice and

treating lives we forcibly took from others " with respect. " (If calling

a forcibly taken life a sacrifice rubs you the wrong way, I suggest to

you that, while you may object to suffering, it's probably not the root

reason for your veganism.)

Nettie's response to Alice was precisely the one I used to give. Because

I thought I was concerned about suffering, I would always be backed into

a logical corner into endorsing " humane " or family farms ( " they're

better than factory farms " ). But since I didn't want to endorse killing

anybody, I would always qualify the endorsement by saying those same

farms were still not acceptable ( " but transport and slaughter are the

same, so the animals still suffer " ). I have had this conversation

literally hundreds of times and each time I felt confused at how

something that seemed so basic (reducing suffering) led logically to a

conclusion I wanted no part of (raising animals so we can kill them for

the products of their bodies is okay so long as we treat them nicely).

Eventually I came to understand that the problem was with basing my

veganism purely on reducing suffering.

For recent blog postings on just this topic, please follow the following

links. The first one has stories of how a number of people (including

myself) came to understand veganism as more than a means to reduce

suffering. Conversations exactly like the one we're having now in this

thread helped guide us to this conclusion.

http://loveallbeings.org/blog/tag/introduction/

http://loveallbeings.org/blog/speaking-your-truth/

http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/2008/12/how-to-prevent-social-change-lesson-1.\

html

http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/2008/12/cognitive-dissonance.html

And for an alternative understanding of veganism that does not lead to

endorsing " humane " animal products and that may more accurately reflect

your views of veganism, please see:

http://loveallbeings.org/vegan-basics/why-is-veganism-important/

Victor

--

Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

The Vegan Ideal: http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/

December 19, 2008

Alice wrote:

"A lot of animals that we keep as food will not survive without humans raising them. They are raised for one purpose. They exist because humans have raised them. Their species will likely go extinct in the absence of humans caring for them. The fact that these animals are raised for only one purpose means that if we decide to forgo the consumption of meat altogether, they would not have been born at all. They would not have lived at all - is that better than to have lived, raised with care in a humanely operated ranch?"

What scientific evidence is there that these species would become extinct if they were no longer raised for food?!?! There are many animals that are not raised for food that have not become extinct and these animals existed in the wild long before humans began domesticating them and eating them en masse. Obviously if everyone went vegan there would have to be a plan to reintroduce cows, pigs and chickens etc into the wild again.

And the idea that free-range farm animals are somehow lucky to have been born and raised "humanely" up until they are brutally murdered long before their natural time is up as opposed to not being born at all is absurd! If they weren't born in the first place they would never have known it. If I were given the choice of being born only to be brutally murdered or not born at all I would always choose not to be born at all.

Alice also said:

referring to her "meat eating liberal friends" -- "Do any of them believe in inhumane factory farming? No. Not at all. Even when I was not vegetarian, I only bought from ranches were humanely treated animals lived their full lives prior to fulfilling their ultimate fate. We appreciated their sacrifice and treated each meal with respect."

I also have noticed that in my own personal experience (This is obviously not a scientific experiment but my own personal observation), the people who say they only buy "humanely raised animal products" don't actually stick to that practice especially when it comes to eating out. Many of the people I work with have said they only buy "humanely" raised animal products but I have watched them gobble down food that obviously was not "humanely" raised.

And the idea that these animals that you ate were making a sacrifice is preposterous! Animals do not want to be sacrificed. They do not want to be harmed or killed or eaten. They want to survive just like us. The truth is that these animals were enslaved, and then forcefully murdered in cold blood. Anyone who eats an animal with respect for the animal is just tricking themselves into believing that they aren't doing something that is horrific. Animals couldn't care less if you respect them for being murdered. They would rather that you hadn't killed them.

Do you think animals feel any better when they are being killed if respect is given for "their sacrifice"?!?! Get real.

And many of these so called "humane" farms are not so humane after all btw.

Warren

**************One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Mail. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp & icid=aolcom40vanity & ncid=emlcntaolcom00000025)

December 19, 2008

" Their species will likely go extinct in the absence of humans caring

for them. "

That is the same argument used by zoo proponents for keeping naturally

wild animals in unnatural captive environments. In both cases, " food

animals " and those locked in zoos, I think it would be kinder to let

them go extinct. Would any of us want to live under those conditions?

Karen

December 19, 2008

Hi Stephanie,I have been vegetarian for seven years for environmental reasons. When I first went veg, it was extremely difficult for me to be in situations similar to the one you described. I would become enraged, militant, etc. Maybe not outwardly, but definitely inwardly or to those closest to me who I knew loved and accepted me. Then over the years, my friends and acquaintances who always expressed what I considered appalling sentiments, such as, " I could NEVER give up meat! " began to contact me asking for information about vegetarianism. Sure, not everyone I know is veg, but I have helped a significant number of people either drastically reduce their flesh intake, or go veg altogether, simply by allowing them to be who they are. I didn't like it and it has never been easy. But at the end of the day, my acceptance of their behavior (which is really all we are asking flesh-eaters for ourselves), was what made the difference. My presence-- and yours-- plants a seed in peoples' minds, even if that seed may take days, months, years or decades to germinate.

It is also important to remember, I believe, that most people in the Bay Area are activists of one kind of another. One person's activism is not another's and while you may be cringing over the fact that people are eating nonhuman animals, another person may be appalled that people are still driving, or buying produce grown in another country, etc. They find their activism as crucial and important as we see our veg activism.

Good luck trying to process. It is difficult and I hope you have found solidarity on the listserve.Best, On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:54 AM, S Falcone <bekindbecause wrote:

Dear Fellow Veg*ns,

Hi and very happy holidays to all of you : )

I am wondering if anyone has any insight into, and suggestions for, a problem that I encounter again and again.

Here we are, in the bay area, that bastion of liberal, educated, " enlightened " beings. The bay area, with its large number of genuinely compassionate and caring people.

And yet these same people, who collect toys for needy children, volunteer at soup kitchens, etc., do *not* want to hear anything about being vegan.

I have been to a number of holiday parties this year, where the folks were truly kind, warm, friendly and caring. The kind of people that almost anyone would say were exceptionally nice

Because food was served, the fact that I'm vegan came up. Not only was the subject *quickly* changed, but in fact some people eyed me suspiciously. It was as if I was wearing a sign that said: " I am better than you are. I am more moral. Also, I am a fanatic with confused priorities who cares more about animals than people " .

It is just so confusing and angering to me to watch such (otherwise) authentically kind, open-minded people, who 99.9% of the world would consider great people, chow down on ham, beef, turkey, chicken, bacon, etc. And most of them " own " dogs and cats that they treat very well.

I want to scream " What is wrong with you people?! " But of course that would only reinforce their conviction that I am strange.

Finally, if I lived in a small town in the Midwest or the South or something, I would not be having this reaction. But these are people who know (and some are even friends with) a vegan or two, and so they can easily know the reality of " animal husbandry " . And they don't want to. I do not get it.

How can such " super nice " people care so little about suffering " food animals " ?

Stephanie

-- " Our task must be to widen our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. " Albert Einstein " The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated. " Mahatma Gandhi

-- M. Mello " I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. "

-- Thomas Jefferson 1802

December 19, 2008

On Dec 19, 2008, at 9:32 AM, M. Mello wrote:>It is also important to remember, I believe, that most people in the Bay Area are >activists of one kind of another.This is the part i find the most frustrating. Activists who talk about changing the world and in many cases are doing some very excellent work towards this goal yet whose daily consumption of food is all about destroying the world and they refuse to acknowledge or accept this simple truth.phil Philip Gelbvegetarian chefshakuhachi player, teacherphilhttp://philipgelb.comhttp://myspace.com/inthemoodforfoodhttp://myspace.com/philipgelbhttp://www.yelp.com/biz/in-the-mood-for-food-oakland

December 19, 2008

Hi everyone,Thank you for all of your thoughtful comments. I hope these conversations lead to some kind of solution for those who are questioned by their peers about being veg like yourself, Stephanie. My friends still don't quite understand where I am coming from, but I think, just like mentioned, many of them are adopting a more veg-rich diet. In fact, many of them have become fans of veg restaurants that they have been to with me, and a few even choose Veg Tasting Menus when we go out to " celebration " restaurants.

Nettie, I agree that many " free-range/natural " products are not what they seem, and yes, I think education is the key here. And a slow but steady flow of knowledge at the right time, esp. after breaking down the barrier to the acceptance of an alternative culinary lifestyle choice, might be an effective strategy? If people realize how a diet without meat is not lacking anything including flavor, then they may be more willing to listen to why that diet is preferable? Maybe?

Mark, funny you mention about eating your children. I recently read an anthroplogical article saying how Japanese taste the best. Yes, Japanese PEOPLE! And me being Japanese, my partner told me that I am not allowed to visit that country that the article was describing.

Victor, you seem to know exactly where I am coming from with the " humane " ranches and farms. The next argument I hear after that is the " plants are alive too, where do you draw the line? " one, but maybe we can talk about this one in person some time!

Karen, I think you are exactly right in saying that it is the same argument used by zoos, and the same people who eat " humane " meat are the ones who are proponents of " open-space/natural environment " zoos, from my experience.

, you have said everything I wanted to say beautifully! Thank you. And thank you for giving me more hope that I can instill change by example, as you have done.Happy Holidays!

AliceOn Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 9:32 AM, M. Mello <mmello wrote: